3 1/2 years...

keras

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Would them martyred in the first century.... would it do any good to take vengeance on a generation 2000 years removed and who had no part in their deaths?
Good point, Dougg!
The Bible prophecy is clear, it is the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 years of the AC's world rule, whom God takes vengeance for and kills. Revelation 19:1-2
At the Great White Throne, all the dead enemies of God get their just punishment; the Lake of Fire.

The rest of your post, I disagree with totally.
 
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keras

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2 Peter 3:12 have nothing to do with the 6Th Seal Events [Revelation 6:12-17]
Both refer to the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. They are the same Day. And that Day is the next prophesied event we can expect.

I didn't write out 2 Peter 3:12 as scripture. I explained how that Day will change the world, not destroy it, using other prophesies to prove it.
 
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Douggg

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My Bible is the Revised English Bible, Oxford University press. 1989
It is copywrited and there is an internet copy, but you have to pay for it.

It is way better that any other version, for clarity and accuracy.
There is no church or translators doctrinal bias in it. My brother, a Wickliffe Bible consultant, recommended it to me.
Well, I had looked and couldn't find an on-line free copy. So that tells me it is not that popular. And from the few parts you have provided it appears that there is some biased theological interpretation going on instead of translating.
 
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Douggg

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Good point, Dougg!
The Bible prophecy is clear, it is the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 years of the AC's world rule, whom God takes vengeance for and kills. Revelation 19:1-2
At the Great White Throne, all the dead enemies of God get their just punishment; the Lake of Fire.

The rest of your post, I disagree with totally.
Instead, what about saying 42 months of the beast's world rule, in order to be consistent with the terms in the bible, Revelation 13, instead of saying 3 1/2 years and the AC's world rule?

Free yourself from a very common bad habit and refine your eschatology.
 
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Davy

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Hang on a second - you think I don't believe that Christs Kingdom will be on earth? I do believe this, I believe that Jesus Christ will Rule and Reign of 1000 years on the Literal earth we are on now.

So you have misunderstood me on that.

Revelation 14 view is on earth.


The Rev 7 & Rev 14 scenes are YEARS PRIOR to the start of the Millennium. The MULTITUDE that appears in Heaven (that come out of the Great Tribulation) this is the RAPTURE.

Rev 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is the Rapture - the rapture occurs PRIOR to God's Wrath. Believers are removed out of the World and then God's Wrath is poured out. The 144,000 come down to earth at the same time as believers depart (rapture) to minister to the wicked with the 2 witnesses for the last half of Daniels 70th week. This is near the MID POINT of Daniels 70th week (shortly after).


That's a pre-trib rapture, because to say a rapture even happens at near the MID POINT of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is to say the rapture happens PRIOR to the tribulation. That just isn't true per God's Holy Writ though.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, our Lord Jesus showed His coming and gathering of the Church is after the tribulation He warned us about. And He is teaching there what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the "caught up" event and the resurrection, so it cannot be denied by some erroneous idea that He was only speaking to 1st century disciples (a stupid idea anyway, because Christ's 2nd coming never happened in their day, and still hasn't happened yet today!)

The so-called rapture event of the Church occurs on the 7th Trumpet (Paul's "last trump") and on the 7th Vial, and on the latter part of the 6th Seal. On the last day of this world is when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the earth and the wicked. Those of us still on earth will be protected from that like how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were protected by Christ while in the hot fiery furnace. When they came out, their clothes didn't even smell of smoke (Daniel 3).

All this happens on the "day of the Lord" per the OT prophets. God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth (2 Pet.3:10). That is what His cup of wrath poured out on the last day of this world is (see end of Hebrews 12 also, and 2 Peter 3:10-12). On that day is when the Church still alive on earth will be 'changed' on the "last trump", at the "twinkling of an eye" to our "spiritual body" (1 Cor.15). That is how the Church will be "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds on that day.

The 144,000 represent believing seed of Israel that are part of Christ's Church today. You're preaching a false split of Christ's Church, which shows you're on the false pre-tribe rapture theory that is part of Darby's Dispensationalism. The reason the 144,000 are being shown sealed is because they are believers on Christ, because God's sealing is by The Holy Spirit in the last days.

So what Revelation 7 is showing, is that before the end of the tribulation with the four winds blowing on the earth, God's chosen of 144,000 of Israel are to be sealed with His seal, in prep for the tribulaton. The sealing is so God's servants won't be subject to the 'stinging' of the locusts in Rev.9. The 144,000 involve a portion of believing Jews in Christ's Church, and then the rest are ten lost tribe believers in Christ's Church.

The "great multitude" is about the Gentiles in Christ's Church that were sealed also and went through the tribulation, and could also include any of Christ's earlier Church that suffered tribulation. The view John is shown of them is for after... Christ's return when they are with Him upon mount Zion in the holy lands. It is the same timing view in Rev.14.
 
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Davy

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Satan is not in the bottomless pit. He is roaming around seeking what kind of trouble and destruction he can cause... and has been doing so ever since iniquity was found in him.

The bottomless pit is Satan's home. It's just another moniker for the abode of hell. So saying Satan is not there, or even that he can't go there, is certainly just an assumption on your part, and has no Biblical support. In Rev.9 we are shown the names of the angel of the bottomless pit in both Hebrew and Greek, pointing directly to Satan. That's his domain. He can walk the earth today too, but he can also appear before God's throne in Heaven still (as shown in the Book of Job). But when Michael and angels cast him out of the heavenly with his angels, per Rev.12:7 forward, that is when Satan will no longer be allowed to appear before God's throne to accuse us. The reason is because he will be here, on earth, in OUR dimension, at that point. The world will see him, but not recognize who he is (Rev.17:8).

The second beast will be Satan's mouthpiece. Not that Satan is that person.

Do you understand that the second beast is the false prophet?

That again. Had this debate elsewhere on that. Not many keep to Scripture on that topic. Will you?

No where in Rev.13 is the idea of a "false prophet" mentioned. Regardless of what you or I believe, there's no mention in Rev.13. So how do men's traditions support such an association?
 
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Riberra

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Would them martyred in the first century.... would it do any good to take vengeance on a generation 2000 years removed and who had no part in their deaths?
The 5TH seal is a kind of package deal so to speak...God said that He will avenge the blood of all the martyrs when their numbers will have reached a certain number...[God decide of the time]

By the way those who will be killed during the 42 months reign of the Beast because they will refuse to take the mark and will refuse to worship the beast and his image are seen in Heaven in Revelation 15:1-2..
Revelation 15:1-2
15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, [which are] the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

The seals are talking about the end times - exclusively the seven years.
The 6TH seal and the 7 Th seal ...and the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials are End Times [the last 7 years preceding the Coming Of Jesus]...

Example:
The 6Th Seal Great Worldwide Earthquake will set the scene for a New World Government made of 10 regions ...who will eventually be run by the Beast who will come out of the Bottomless Pit.

The Beast Coming out of the Sea ie[People] mentioned in Revelation 13:1-2 is about a one World Government made of TEN REGIONS governed by ten rulers ''10 Kings''


Beginning when the person has become the Antichrist, the Anti-messiah, anointed the King of Israel, given a crown, riding the white horse.
And ending when Jesus returns in the sixth seal to execute judgment..
The First Seal is not about the Beast/AC ...the Bible talk about the 42 months reign of the Beast /AC only in Revelation 13.
 
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Douggg

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The bottomless pit is Satan's home.
Then in Revelation 12:7-9, why is the war in heaven and not in the bottomless pit that the devil is cast down (Revelation 12:12) to the earth?

In Revelation 9:1...Satan is cast down from heaven to the earth. He is given the key of the bottomless pit. He didn't have it before - so how does he get into his own home? Sounds to me like he didn't leave heaven of his own free will. And God seems to be dismantling his kingdom. Babylon the great is fallen! is fallen!

Seems to me like some other rebellious angels, but those beings are now imprisoned in the bottomless pit, are going to be freed to be judged.

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

So it is going to be Satan and his angels running around on the earth in wrath knowing that their time is about up, plus the angels and creatures in the bottomless pit that are going to be freed for the apparent same reason, for that last time, times, and half times.
 
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keras

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Well, I had looked and couldn't find an on-line free copy. So that tells me it is not that popular. And from the few parts you have provided it appears that there is some biased theological interpretation going on instead of translating.
You dislike the REB, because it conflicts with your beliefs.
But it is an accurate translation and what it says is the true Word. Not like the KJV, which has many doctrines inserted from the Church of that time and from King James himself. The NIV is another version that is written to support Church doctrines. The JW Bible is the worst example.
But if people really like to go off the rails; the Scofield Bible is the one!
 
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keras

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The 6TH seal and the 7 Th seal ...and the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials are End Times [the last 7 years preceding the Coming Of Jesus]...
Example:
The 6Th Seal Great Worldwide Earthquake will set the scene for a New World Government made of 10 regions ...who will eventually be run by the Beast who will come out of the Bottomless Pit.
Lets try to get a proper sequence of these events;
The first five Seals; these are open, since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by all the martyrs since Stephen, of the Fifth Seal. Revelation 6:9-11
The Sixth Seal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath against the nations. The next prophesied event, triggered by an attack by the Islamic peoples against Israel. Psalm 83, Micah 4:11-12
Then there is the time gap of the Seventh Seal of 'about 20 years'.

This allows for the establishment of a One World govt and the migration of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10

It is only in the last 3 1/2 years, that the 'beast' will control all the world and persecute the Christians. Revelation 12:6-17 That is when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the great Tribulation take place.
Then Jesus will Return and destroy the armies gathered at Armageddon, and commence His Millennium reign.
 
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Riberra

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Lets try to get a proper sequence of these events;
The first five Seals; these are open, since Jesus Ascended to heaven. Proved by all the martyrs since Stephen, of the Fifth Seal. Revelation 6:9-11
Agreed...that is why i said that the 6 TH SEAL ,the 7TH SEAL ...The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials will be End Times events happening during the last 7 years preceding the Coming of Jesus.


The Sixth Seal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath against the nations. The next prophesied event, triggered by an attack by the Islamic peoples against Israel. Psalm 83, Micah 411-12`
Nah,...there is no attack or troups gathered to attack Israel mentioned at the 6TH seal...Revelation 6:12-17
Then there is the time gap of the Seventh Seal of 'about 20 years'.
Your personal interpretation ...

This allows for the establishment of a One World govt and the migration of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10
The plan to create a one World Government made of 10 regions already exist ...
the Illuminati want to create a Third World War to put that plan in action

so one way or the other the creation of a one world government will possibly be already in place

before the crisis caused by the Great Worldwide Earthquake of the 6th seal.
It is only in the last 3 1/2 years, that the 'beast' will control all the world and persecute the Christians.
Exactly what i said ...during the last 42 months preceding the Coming of Jesus Revelation 13:5.


Revelation 12:6-17 That is when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the great Tribulation take place.
The plagues of Trumpet 1 trough Trumpet 6 Revelation 8 and Revelation 9 will happen BEFORE THE 42 Months Reign of the Beast.
The 42 months reign of the Beast will begin after the 7 Th Trumpet...this is the third woe...Satan cast out of Heaven Revelation 12 giving authority to the Beast Revelation 13.
The 7 VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD Revelation 16 UPON THOSE WHO WILL HAVE TAKEN THE MARK AND WORSHIPED THE BEAST ,WILL BE POURED OUT DURING THE LAST 6 MONTHS OF THE 42 MONTHS REIGN OF THE BEAST .

Then Jesus will Return and destroy the armies gathered at Armageddon, and commence His Millennium reign.
Agreed.
 
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keras

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Agreed...that is why i said that the 6 TH SEAL ,the 7TH SEAL ...The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials will be End Times events happening during the last 7 years preceding the Coming of Jesus.
As the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, they will happen during the last 3 1/2 years.
The Sixth and Seventh Seals are plainly before that. You must shuffle Revelation to change that. Not
a good idea!
Nah,...there is no attack or troups gathered to attack Israel mentioned at the 6TH seal
Mentioned in many other prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, +
Your personal interpretation ..
Based on the Bible. Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8
The plan to create a one World Government made of 10 regions already exist ...
the Illuminati want to create a Third World War to put that plan in action
The plan for an OWG has existed for over 100 years, but the way to do it is not yet possible. Only after this worldwide catastrophe of the Lord's Day of wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. will the nations relinquish their sovereignty.
The plagues of Trumpet 1 trough Trumpet 6 Revelation 8 and Revelation 9 will happen BEFORE THE 42 Months Reign of the Beast.
The 42 months reign of the Beast will begin after the 7 Th Trumpet...this is the third woe...Satan cast out of Heaven Revelation 12 giving authority to the Beast Revelation 13.
The 7 VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD Revelation 16 UPON THOSE WHO WILL HAVE TAKEN THE MARK AND WORSHIPED THE BEAST ,WILL BE POURED OUT DURING THE LAST 6 MONTHS OF THE 42 MONTHS REIGN OF THE BEAST .
Maybe, but I doubt it. I see the first half of the last seven years as a peaceful time. Only when the leader of the OWG conquers the Lord's holy people, the new Christian nation of Beulah, and sits in the Temple; will the GT commence.
 
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Riberra

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As the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, they will happen during the last 3 1/2 years.
The Sixth and Seventh Seals are plainly before that. You must shuffle Revelation to change that. Not
a good idea!
The Tribulation TIME will last 7 years....
Yes, the 6Th Seal Great Worldwide Earthquake Revelation 6:12-17 and The 7 TH Seal ----Revelation 8 ...Revelation 9 will happen before the 42 months Reign of the Beast ---

The 42 months Reign of the Beast will be the GREAT TRIBULATION OF THE CHRISTIANS ...but a time of peace and prosperity for those who will take the mark and who will worship the Beast.

Mentioned in many other prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord. Micah 4:11-12, +
That describe Israel surrounded and invaded when the armies will gather for the Battle of Armageddon
 
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Douggg

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The Sixth Seal; the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath against the nations. The next prophesied event, triggered by an attack by the Islamic peoples against Israel. Psalm 83, Micah 4:11-12
keras, the seven years come after the end of Islam in the Gog/Magog event. There are 7 years which the war implements will be burned. Those seven years coincide with the last 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

The reason this can be ascertained is the two feasts on the dead bodies in Ezekiel 39. The first is on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4. Then seven years later is the feast on the Armageddon dead bodies in Ezekiel 39:17-20 which corresponds to the Revelation 19:17-18 feast.

Anyone trying to work a muslim angle into the seals, not just you, is missing the boat. Right now the muslim issue is big. But like communism, it will end rather abruptly.

Trying to extend today's Geo-politiical world into last 7 years is not going to work out.
 
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Douggg

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As the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are the Great Tribulation, they will happen during the last 3 1/2 years.
Sort of. The great tribulation lasts 1335 days to be exact.
 
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Riberra

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Sort of. The last 1335 days to be exact.
The plagues upon the kingdom of the Beast will happen only during the 7 Vials of the WRATH OF GOD Revelation 16 during the last 6 months of the 42 months reign of the Beast upon all those who will have taken the mark and worshiped the Beast....the few Christians still alive at that moment will have to go into their protective chambers ...

The 6 first trumpet plagues Revelation 8 Revelation 9 will happen before that the Beast is given power by Satan Revelation 13:5 for the last 42 months preceding the Coming of Jesus...
The 7Th trumpet being the third woe ...Satan cast out of Heaven Revelation 12:7-12 giving power to the Beast Revelation 13:3-5
 
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keras

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Trying to extend today's Geo-politiical world into last 7 years is not going to work out.
This just shows that you fail to read properly what I and others believe.
In no way do I think this current world will be anything like the situation in the last days. The Islamic religion and all it holy places will be gone at the Sixth Seal.

Right, the G/M attack will be at least 7 years before Jesus Returns; I think more l
ike 10 years before.
That describe Israel surrounded and invaded when the armies will gather for the Battle of Armageddon
Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12 simply do not fit with Armageddon, where all the worlds armies gather, but in this next attack, it is just the surrounding peoples who attack. Plus many other differences.
You should be more careful when making assertions like this, they are just your unsupported opinion and are so easily proved wrong.
 
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Riberra

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Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12 simply do not fit with Armageddon, where all the worlds armies gather, but in this next attack, it is just the surrounding peoples who attack. Plus many other differences.
You should be more careful when making assertions like this, they are just your unsupported opinion and are so easily proved wrong.
You claim that only Muslim countries will attack Israel while Micah 4:11-12 say many NATIONS are assembled ....

11 And now many nations are assembled against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye see [our desire] upon Zion.

12 But they know not the thoughts of Jehovah, neither understand they his counsel; for he hath gathered them as the sheaves to the threshing-floor.

That refers to the gathering of the armies of the Nations mentioned in Revelation 16:14-16 for the Battle of The Great Day of God,the Almighty.
Revelation 16:14-16
14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.) 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

Your saying that this happen at the 6Th Seal Revelation 6:12-17 have been proved wrong by Scripture Revelation 16:14-16
 
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Douggg

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The Beast Coming out of the Sea ie[People] mentioned in Revelation 13:1-2 is about a one World Government made of TEN REGIONS governed by ten rulers ''10 Kings''
I understand your rationale that the fourth beast overtakes the whole world....

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

...thus, it must mean a one world government.

But that is not what it means, because the beast (the person) and his kingdom (also likened to a beast) are attacked by other quadrants of the world, their kingdoms, in Daniel 11:40-48.

What it boils down to is the EU in it's final form whatever that is, the beast's kingdom. Most likely the EU divided into ten regions just as you visualize the world becoming ten regions.

Assuming the United States and Canada align with them, the EU would be the most dominant power in the world and would exert it's will.
 
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