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  1. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    I am thinking that the 70 weeks of Daniel were not fulfilled with Jesus' ministry. This is the text:
    Daniel 9: 24-27 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    In bold, (above) is the part that I think was fulfilled. Looking at the text, it seems a bit obvious that not all of it was fulfilled, but requires the arrival of the kingdom.

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

    One theory, is that the final 3 1/2 years was fulfilled up until the stoning of Steven. In contrast to the futurist interpretation, I think that the final part of the prophesy relates to Titus, and the Romans, and 70 AD. The he, who confirms the covenant was Jesus, cut off mid-week, and causing the sacrifice to cease.
    But the idea, that the 70th week closes with the stoning of Steven, is a weak argument, and I think that perhaps this final 3 1/2 years is projected forward somehow.


    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    There would appear to be a tribulation associated with the return of Christ?

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    The tares are removed from the earth. The elect remain. Where is the tribulation, if the days were as in the days of Noah? The scenario is one of normality - things carrying on as usual.
    Unless there is an error in the gathering of the information in Matthew 24. There can't be tribulation, and days of Noah at the same time.

    Luke 21:
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    In Luke 21, there is no tribulation, rather trepidation - signs in the heavens. Perhaps Matthew 24 was talking about the great tribulation of 70 AD, and somehow the order of Jesus teachings got jumbled up.

    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The worthy to escape? escape what? Luke 21 again:

    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Talking about 70 AD.

    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    The fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles, might be the clue, that there is a break, and the prophesy continues about the last days...
    This part of Matthew 24 is derived from the OT:

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

    I think it might have been a summary - Jesus quoting form the OT in regard to the day of the Lord - both 70 AD and the last days. What makes sense to me, is that there cannot be both a great tribulation of the last days, and the days of Noah, at the same time. So the great tribulation must be about 70 AD. The snare that ensnares everyone on the earth, (from Luke 21) is about the day of the Lord - and it is unexpected (a rabbit is caught by surprise).

    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    It still doesn't solve the mystery of the 3 1/2 years. And what would be the point of a pre-trib rapture, if there is no tribulation to escape? What is probably meant, is that we need to be worthy to escape the removal of the tares, as in Matthew 13:

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.

    The scenario is, that the tares are removed (by angels) from the kingdom, which must be the earth, as the tares would not be in heaven. Then the elect are gathered by angels - (Mark 13):

    27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    A gathering together of all the elect - from heaven and earth, to presumably some new heaven. The rapture would be at the close of the age, when the angels gather the elect, after the tares have been removed.
    What about the final 3 1/2 weeks? This might be a period of persecution of the church for 3 1/2 years?
    It might be that the church escapes for this final period - so many believe so. I don't see any hard evidence to exclude that possibility either. The final period would be a time of normality, but with trepidation - odd things occurring in the heavens.

















     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  2. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    ...
     
  3. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    The continuous 70-week argument is not weak! It is the historical view of the church, and it is the logical interpretation of the passage. However, I prefer the interpretation that closes the 70th week at the outpouring of the Spirit at Cornelius' house (The Gentile Pentecost Acts 10) rather than the stoning of Stephen.

    As for a 3 1/2 year tribulation in the future, we need to reexamine our source reference. If it is not Daniel 9 as so many claim, where does it come from? The answer is from Daniel 7:25. So, yes, there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation, but no, it does not come by disconnecting one of Daniels 70 weeks and projecting it into the future. Daniel 7 and Daniel 9 are two separate visions and should not be conflated with each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  4. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    Do you not go along with the theory that the one who wears out the saints, is the Roman church? It doesn't seem to be a very good fit to me. It seems to be more like 3 1/2 years rather than 1260 years, as some claim. But then you have the problem of who are the three kings - and the historicist theory seems to fit best, with that.

    Pentecost might be a solution to the final 3 1/2 years of the 70 weeks.
     
  5. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    I dont want to take your opening post off topic. Im simply saying we dont need Daniel 9 to find an endtime 3 1/2 years. Daniels 70 weeks is all about Christ's atonement and the setting up of his temple not made by mans hands. It should never be used to create second coming theories. Please google, "The Atonement Clock"
     
  6. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    These verses are distinctly the Last Days prophecy

    4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

    5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?

    7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

    8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

    11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.


    the book is to be sealed until the time of the end because only the generation that is living at that time will see in the world about them the fulfillment of these things and understand ,

    Not everything is about 70 AD although there are people who try to insist otherwise
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Matthew says this about the Kingdom.
    Mat. 4:17
    From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Who are you identifying as the Elect?

    Rom. 11:5
    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Rom. 11:7
    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    Rom. 11:28
    As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    Rom. 9:27
    Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Isa. 10:22
    For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
     
  9. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Mat 24:32-35
    32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    1Cor. 10:11
    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Dan. 12:4
    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Rev. 5:2
    And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    Rev. 5:3
    And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    Rev. 5:5
    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Daniels 70th 'week', remains to be fulfilled.
    Despite attempts to fit it in the time of Jesus' Advent, that preterist idea simply fails to convince any serious studier of the Prophetic Word.
    Daniel mentions the 'last days' several times and Revelation, although it says 'things soon to happen', obviously that is in God's timing, as what is told us still awaits fulfilment.

    An interesting aspect of the last 7 year period, is that it is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. Daniel 9:27
    It commences with an agreement between the leader of the One world govt and the leaders of the new nation in the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5 This gives peace for the first 3 1/2 years. But he breaks it and conquers God's holy people. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 This triggers the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon and the Return of Jesus.

    Also the 3 ways of giving us this period - 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years, proves that our years will be 360 days and our months 30 days, by then. This slowing of the earths orbit by 5.24 days a year, will be caused by the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal. The over 100 prophesies about this terrible Day of cosmic and earthly occurrences, vividly describe how the earth will shudder and shake, and will be moved out of her place. Isaiah 13:13
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The Jews have always had a 360 day Calendar, God is using His timetable with them not the rest of the world.

    Its all about the Jews, everything else is all incidental, and of no consequence.
     
  12. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    The entire world now follows the same calendar , but regarding bible times and biblical prophetic matters a 360 day year is to used to be accurate
    When people refuse to acknowledge that there will yet come a time when a man sits in the temple and declares to the world that he is God and convinces the people he is God by signs of miracles and wonders m they will always misunderstand scripture -
    It would not matter if it happened 7 times before - IT WILL happen in the future - we all know that some people refuse to believe it because in their eyes it ha happened and refuse to believe it will happen as 2 Thess2 says it will , refusing to believe is why they do not understand the rest of prophetic matters
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  13. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    Jesus says that the angels remove that which causes offence and the workers of lawlessness - so the elect are those who are not lawless - not the 613 laws of the Torah, but the Law written in the hearts of the Israel of God.
     
  14. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    that's one theory. I don't go along with it. However, the prophesy has not been completely fulfilled, so some of it must be future:

    Daniel 9: 24-27 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    the parts that have not been fulfilled are: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy.
    I know that vision still occurs. And there hasn't been an end of sins, there has been atonement for sins, (and to make reconciliation for iniquity). However, to bring in everlasting righteousness, will occur with the arrival of the kingdom. So the final 3 1/2 years must have another meaning - like the 70 weeks remains open until the arrival of the kingdom.
     
  15. Hiscosmicgoldfish3

    Hiscosmicgoldfish3 Active Member

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    I think that Daniel 7:25 needs to be examined in context with the rest of Daniel 7:

    Daniel 7:

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    For me, the best solution to this, is that it is talking about the Seleucid Empire.

    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    the ten horns were a collection of Seleucid kings. The three horns plucked up by the roots were Demetrius, son of Seleucus, exchanged for Antiochus IV c. 178-175. Seleucus IV was assassinated 175 BC. Antiochus IV was assassinated 170 BC. The little horn was Antiochus IV - he was probably a stout fellow.


    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    quite specific- the horns are kings, that arise out of the Seleucid Empire. the little horn arises after them - in a sequence, and this king (Antiochus IV) subdues three kings - not kingdoms at the same time, (as with the barbarian kingdoms theory).

    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    3 1/2 years of persecution of the Jews c. 167 BC. The barbarian kingdoms theory, is that the little horn is the papacy, which persecutes for 1260 years. I think it is a bit of a stretch to get all that, out of the text. There are problems with the theory -
    it only concentrates on
    the Western Roman Empire, which broke into 10 kingdoms, supposedly, but you can giggle about who the Arian kingdoms were, to make up ten. And you can giggle with the dates. And a kingdom isn't a king - doesn't convince me. And why would the papacy be a stout fellow?

     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  16. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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    The word translated there as "them all" is the Grk word hapas which means "all things".

    It isn't just saying that a group of people are taken away. It's saying that the flood took everything away.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    This idea just does not fit with all that Daniel says, nor with the rest of Bible prophecy.
    The Seleucid rule was a precursor to what will happen in the last days, but they did not fulfil it all. Daniel 8:15-19
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Mr. fish, start with a clean piece of paper (not to say that everything your wrote was misplaced or wrong). This different approach...

    On the piece paper, or in your head, have two headings

    (1) how the person ends up being the King of Israel, illegitimate. What ends his time as the Antichrist.

    (2) how the person ends up being the last Kings of the Roman Empire. The little horn and the beast. What ends his time as the little horn. What end his time as the beast.

    All of the timeframes work together for those two tracks of the person. The arch villain of the end times.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Based on what? What new nation?
    God's holy people - who? Who are you talking about?
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi Christian Gedge, well, it is not 3 1/2 years. Technically more. Not to say that 3 1/2 years is not commonly used, but it is actually nominative. And it is not "tribulation". It is great tribulation. And in can be found in Daniel 12, time of the end, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

    It does not say directly in the text, but by combining what Jesus says in Matthew 24:15, and Jerusalem not seeing him again until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of Lord, last verse of Matthew 23 - with the information in the text of Daniel 12.

    1335 days before the day that Jesus's foot touches down on the Mount of Olives - the Abomination of Desolation will be placed in a holy place (the temple) triggering the great tribulation.

    side note - that is a nice friendly picture of you (I assume) so I am going to give you a thumbs up on that...:oldthumbsup: It encourages non-combative discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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