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3 1/2 years...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Hiscosmicgoldfish3, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I do that because of the erroneous and old fashioned KJV version, that often leads people astray.

    The text of Revelation 7:9-14 does not say where what is described will happen. But we are agreed that Revelation 7:1-8 is on earth.
    So logically we should assume the narrative continues in the same location, unless otherwise stated. To say the venue suddenly changes to heaven, is a leap of guesswork and assumption.

    The gathering of the Lord's faithful people is into the holy Land. I have posted ample proof of this, but people who have believed false teachings are actually made incapable of understanding this truth. Isaiah 29:9-12, Ephesians 4:18, Isaiah 8:16, +

    Re opinions: I strongly object to opinions stated as fact.
    People just cannot make statements of their beliefs, as though they are absolute truths, without any proper Biblical support.
     
  2. bjdea1

    bjdea1 Junior Member

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    Revelation 7:4-8 is NOT on earth. There are no Tribes of Israel in existence on the earth today. And we can confirm that the 144000 start off in heaven from Rev 14: 1-5

    "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    2 And I heard a voice from HEAVEN, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


    Ok - so we see that John hears this SOUND of voices singing and harps harping COMING FROM HEAVEN. And if you consider the description of the scene - no such thing occurs on earth - it only occurs in heaven.

    The reason no other men could learn this song is because they are in HEAVEN, they are taught the song in heaven - no one on earth can learn a song taught in HEAVEN.

    Also note that Mount Sion is - HEAVENLY Mount Sion and HEAVENLY JERUSALEM - not the earthly ones.

    And also consider the description of the 144,000 - VIRGINS, FIRSTFRUITS. They are OLD Testament saints from the LITERAL Tribes of Israel from the past - AND they are presently in HEAVEN with God (awake and conscious) because they died thousands of years ago. These are 12000 from each LITERAL tribe of the OLD TESTAMENT ISRAEL that walked blamelessly before God in their day on the earth - thousands of years ago.

    So Rev 7: 4-14 is INDEED a SCENE in HEAVEN. Rev 7 and Rev14 are talking about the SAME THING.

    Keras - please listen and learn. Are you too old to learn?

    How the hell anyone can read Rev 14 and see all the descriptions of angels and God's throne -the 24 elders etc and all that going on and say its not in heaven - only a crazy person would say such a thing.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Revelation 17, two different beast ideas are presented. There's the idea of a beast king, and then a beast kingdom. Only by understanding Revelation 13 about that difference of the two beasts will Revelation 17 about those 8 kings be properly understood.

    The beast that goes into the lake of fire at Jesus' coming is about the kingdom beast. Jesus will end it when He comes. But we know per Rev.20 Satan is not destroyed yet at that point, but that he too is to go into the lake of fire eventually (after the "thousand years" at Rev.20:10). That is why you don't find the dragon (Satan) mentioned in Revelation 19:20 along with the false prophet and beast.

    Rev 17:11
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    KJV

    Rev 17:8
    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    KJV

    Note the connection between the beast that was, and is not. Who is it that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and eventually go into perdition? Not the kingdom beast, but the beast king, and it's pointing directly to Satan himself as that beast king. This is also why in Rev.13:11 we are shown the 2nd beast ("another beast"), referring to the "dragon", coming up out of the earth.

    Rev 13:11
    11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    KJV
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Someone who has actually studied all of God's Word will know what Keras knows about that, which you obviously do not know, yet.

    Christ's Kingdom to come will be upon this earth. That is where His elect saints are to reign over the nations with Him from, as written in Rev.5. The Psalms 2 Scripture reveals Jesus ordained to sit upon God's holy hill of Zion. And that future Zion will be on earth, not in some la, la land (though God's heavenly cube to come after that will extend from the earth up into the clouds).

    Even in Rev.3, Jesus promised to His elect Church of Philadelphia that He would make the false Jews, those of the "synagogue of Satan", to come worship Him at their feet. That has never happened yet. It is only for the future Millennium of Christ's reign with His elect over the nations. So are those wicked going to be up in Heaven for that to be fulfilled? No, it will be on earth.

    And that's the vision John was being shown, the future Zion that will manifest on earth, in the holy land. If you don't understand this, it's only because you haven't read or believed the following, which was a vision of the future world like John was given, but this was to Ezekiel:

    Ezek 47:1-12
    47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
    2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
    3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
    4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
    5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
    6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
    7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

    8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
    9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
    10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

    11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
    12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

    KJV

    That is the same River that John saw in Revelation, and it's the same tree of life that John also was shown by vision in Revelation. What's really special about this version shown Ezekiel is that it's LOCATION is in the lands of En-gedi unto En-eglaim, which are specific areas in the middle east.

    So all this time God has shown His faithful servants where those things John was shown by vision is going to manifest, on this earth. And all we had to do is have patience and study all of God's Word and believe God's Holy Writ instead of allowing a bunch of men's doctrines to deceive us!


    The deceived don't have a clue... as to where Christ's future Heavenly kingdom is going to manifest, simply because they have not understood enough of God's Word which emphatically shows us. Instead they are busy creating sand castles in the air which is not... how His Kingdom will manifest in the future. I mean, God's Word shows even angels able to walk and live upon this earth, and God did say He created this earth to be inhabited (Isaiah 45).


     
  5. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Psalms 37:39-40 is a passage about the SALVATION of the righteous ie the faithful believers in God...nothing in that text ''about going into the land of Israel -BEFORE- the Coming of Jesus''.We are saved because we will not end into the lake of fire like the wicked [Revelation 20:15]

    Psalms 37:39-40
    39 But the salvation of the righteous is of Jehovah; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.

    40 And Jehovah helpeth them, and rescueth them; He rescueth them from the wicked, and saveth them, Because they have taken refuge in him.

    You have so much to learn -and SO Little Time-..because spiritually speaking~ you lack of discernment ,you are like a little children who need to be taken by the hand to be guided .
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  6. bjdea1

    bjdea1 Junior Member

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    Hang on a second - you think I don't believe that Christs Kingdom will be on earth? I do believe this, I believe that Jesus Christ will Rule and Reign of 1000 years on the Literal earth we are on now.

    So you have misunderstood me on that.

    The Rev 7 & Rev 14 scenes are YEARS PRIOR to the start of the Millennium. The MULTITUDE that appears in Heaven (that come out of the Great Tribulation) this is the RAPTURE.

    Rev 7:9
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    This is the Rapture - the rapture occurs PRIOR to God's Wrath. Believers are removed out of the World and then God's Wrath is poured out. The 144,000 come down to earth at the same time as believers depart (rapture) to minister to the wicked with the 2 witnesses for the last half of Daniels 70th week. This is near the MID POINT of Daniels 70th week (shortly after).

    I'm sorry but I have studied ALL of God's Word in depth and I do know what I'm talking about.

    .
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Revelation 7:9 is the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
    That you are seriously wrong on this, is simply proved by Revelation 7:14, where John asks the angel who those people are in verse 9.
    They are the people who have passed thru the great ordeal, the great test of the Sixth Seal event, as 1 Peter 4:12 says we must.

    Your very confused and unscriptural explanation of the 144,000, simply does not match with the prophesies. Are the 144k dead people?
    Before promoting a 'rapture to heaven', proper scriptural proof of that theory must be given.
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Assumption 1/ No tribes of Israel exist today.
    Assumption 2/ Mt Zion is in heaven.
    Assumption 3/ The Voice heard is in the same place as where the 144k are.

    1/ Judah exists and God knows where all His people are scattered around the world today. Amos 9:9 They are every faithful Christian person, form every tribe, race, nation and language. They will be assigned to one of the 12 tribes. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 and Revelation 5:9-10.

    2/ Mt Zion is in earthly Jerusalem. Jesus will be revealed to His people after His Day of wrath. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1; Isaiah 24:23

    3/ The Voice is heard from heaven. Therefore the hearers are someplace else.
    Get this; we are earthly creatures, God has angels to serve Him in heaven, our place is on the beautiful planet He made for us. We never leave it; Jesus said so: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Your home is the earth...John 8:21-23, Plus many others.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    These Words are plainly about a physical rescue. Not about our spiritual Salvation.
    We Christians must stand firm in our faith in the Lord in the time of trouble. He will protect us and bring us into His holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 8:24-26
    Fortunately, I have not been guided by so called 'teachers' who promote fables and their own theories, like people being whisked off to heaven, without any trials or judgement.
    My beliefs are all soundly Bible based and I always support them with scripture.

    But I know that for most, understanding of God's Plans will only come after His terrible Day of wrath. A Day of testing for all people. Luke 21:34-36 [escape in verse 36 does not mean removal, but protection]

    Here's a new idea for you, Riberra: Tell us your beliefs instead of throwing cold water on what others promote.
    Make sure you have positive proofs for what will happen in the end times.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  10. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Here more cold water for you that desire the day of the Lord. You want positive proofs :
    Amos 5:18
    18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

    19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

    20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    2 Peter 3:12 Look forward to the coming of the Day of God, [wrath] and work to hasten it on, as the Day will....change the world and reset civilization, like God did in the days of Noah.

    You do believe the Prophetic Word, why don't you realize that the world will be a much better place after God has destroyed His enemies? Isaiah 66:15-17
     
  12. bjdea1

    bjdea1 Junior Member

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    Keras there is just too much ground to cover with you. You're too "out there" in some weird wacko doctrine land all of your own.

    I'm gonna have to leave you on your own little island in the middle of nowhere. Maybe I will have time later and drop in again.....
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Thank you for your concern for me.
    Maybe you could take a look at: logostelos.info and be better informed about me and what I believe.
     
  14. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 3:12 have nothing to do with the 6Th Seal Events [Revelation 6:12-17]

    2 Peter 3:12
    12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall MELT with fervent heat?

    Are you saying that ALL God's enemies will be destroyed during the great earthquake of the 6Th Seal mentioned in [Revelation 6:12-17]?Come on! They are there for the Battle of Armageddon who will happen many years later as proved by

    Revelation 19:17-18

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come [and] be gathered together unto the great supper of God; 18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great.

    At the great earthquake of the 6Th Seal [Revelation 6:12-17]they run to hide in fear and total panic because they wrongly believe that the end of the world is arrived .

    In Revelation 19:17-18 they are assembled to make war with Jesus ...Jesus will at that moments destroy His enemies ie[all those who will have taken the mark and who will have worshiped the Beast and his image, ALL gathered for the Battle of Armageddon ALONG The Armies of the World].
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Satan is not in the bottomless pit. He is roaming around seeking what kind of trouble and destruction he can cause... and has been doing so ever since iniquity was found in him.

    The second beast will be Satan's mouthpiece. Not that Satan is that person.

    Do you understand that the second beast is the false prophet?
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well, them in Revelation, the sixth seal, are in total fear because the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come because of all their wickedness, and martyring of them who believed upon the Lamb and are in the fifth seal, calling for Him to avenge their blood.

    The heavens will part on day 2475 of the 7years. During the remainder, 45 days, the kings of the earth will assemble their armies at Armageddon.

    On that Day, them who are now dealing with the difficulties of this world, but who believe upon Jesus, will shine like stars in the third heaven. We are at that time in history. Hold loosely to the things of this world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  17. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    The 5Th Seal is about the SOULS of the Early Christians Martyrs ie [like the 12 Apostles] who were seen under the altar of God in Heaven, to whom it was said that God will avenge their Blood when the number of the Christians Martyrs who will be KILLED as they were trough the ages will have reached a certain amount ...then God will avenge their Blood..God avenging the Blood of the Martyrs clearly will happen at some point near the End [the last 6 months]of the 42 months reign of the Beast. [Revelation 16] is about God avenging the blood of the Martyrs upon those who will have taken the mark and who will have worshiped the beast and his image...


    Interesting ... Time for me to sleep it is 3:43 AM here ---to tired to comment on that one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Why not provide the rest of us with a link for the online REB translation you are using?
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Would them martyred in the first century.... would it do any good to take vengeance on a generation 2000 years removed and who had no part in their deaths?

    The seals are talking about the end times - exclusively the seven years.

    Beginning when the person has become the Antichrist, the Anti-messiah, anointed the King of Israel, given a crown, riding the white horse.
    And ending when Jesus returns in the sixth seal to execute judgment..

    Them in the 5th seal are those who have been martyred by the Kings of the earth - after the person becomes the beast and everyone required to worship him and his image.


    First seal. The person become the Antichrist.
    Second seal. The person reveals himself as the man of sin - war breaks out
    Third seal. The great tribulation is in progress
    Fourth seal. The threat of all life on earth being ended
    Fifth seal. The martyrs sticking to the word of God and not denying Jesus's name
    Sixth seal. The heavens part and the Sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    My Bible is the Revised English Bible, Oxford University press. 1989
    It is copywrited and there is an internet copy, but you have to pay for it.

    It is way better that any other version, for clarity and accuracy.
    There is no church or translators doctrinal bias in it. My brother, a Wickliffe Bible consultant, recommended it to me.
     
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