280 Weeks are Determined

[Douggg]

Where does it say there isn't a resurrection of the dead there?

There had to be because when you keep reading further into Matthew 25:31-46 it shows that the day of judgment occurs on the day that Christ comes with His angels. There won't be a judgment without the dead being raised first.

Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.

Excellent job of avoiding the point I made about the day of judgment occurring when Christ comes with His angels. Well done. Would it be too much trouble for me to ask how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?

 

[BABerean2]

Not only does not Matthew 24:31 not say anything about the resurrection of the dead, but also nothing about the translation of the living.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
You cannot have judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

Is His appearing found in Matthew 24?

.

 

[jgr]

A chart is nothing more than a picture of how things fit together.

Could you imaging a home builder contractor building a house for a client without a set of drawings and specifications ? The drawings are like a chart of how things fit together and the overall picture. And the specifications are like the words.

Why didn't any of the writers of Scripture draw charts for us?

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, so we aren’t going to know how God chooses who is a Jew and who isn’t because God will use a metric unknown to us. Since Satan and his ministers come as an angel of light, what happens if there are 144,001 virgins who all claim to be the 144,000? What metric would you use to determine who is the false one?

They have God’s seal on their forehead. Can Satan place God’s seal on a forehead or just 666?

Why do you think this is a big issue? The church is not even here during the Trumpets. Do you think good works and endurance sets you apart from those in Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it say there isn't a resurrection of the dead there? If this type of weak argument was valid, it would mean that it's not possible to relate any 2 passages of scripture together unless they each had all of the same details.

But, there had to be a resurrection there because when you keep reading further into Matthew 25:31-46 it shows that the day of judgment occurs on the day that Christ comes with His angels. There won't be a judgment without the dead being raised first. Matthew 25:31-46 makes it clear that the angels are gathering the elect to appear before Christ on the throne of judgment and the unbelievers will be there as well.

Those in Christ are not dead, but in Paradise. There is no resurrection because the angels brought them from Paradise, the 4 corners of heaven, the 4 corners of Paradise. Christ brings the living church with him, to meet the living church on earth. The church is not dead, but alive. If you are in a dead church waiting to be resurrected, you are in the wrong church.

Do you think those in sheol get the same reward and judgment as those in Christ? Why would they all stand before God at the same time? Putting all humanity that ever lived at the same judgment, denies the Cross where the Lamb, God Himself judged sin and took the sting out of death. Those in Christ will never stand in judgment with those still in sin and death.

 

[Douggg]

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
You cannot have judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

Is His appearing found in Matthew 24?

.

Read the whole verse of 2Timothy4:1.

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Jesus reigns here on this earth for a thousand years after his coming. Then the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[Douggg]

Why didn't any of the writers of Scripture draw charts for us?

They were not living in the time of the end. Really, what I think is going to convince you regarding my charts is when the EU forms that ten leader form of government, which the little horn appears.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[Douggg]

Excellent job of avoiding the point I made about the day of judgment occurring when Christ comes with His angels. Well done. Would it be too much trouble for me to ask how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?

It is one of the series of parables in Matthew 25, regarding how we should live and treat others.

 

[grafted branch]

They have God’s seal on their forehead. Can Satan place God’s seal on a forehead or just 666?

So an angel which has the seal of God will appear on earth and start stamping people in the forehead? And when he reaches #144,000 he’s done?

Why do you think this is a big issue?

Because when someone puts forth a view it has to make sense. If you can’t define who a Jew is, then why should I believe the view that all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations.

 

[BABerean2]

Read the whole verse of 2Timothy4:1.

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Jesus reigns here on this earth for a thousand years after his coming. Then the Great White Throne judgment.

The passage below proves you are not correct.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

 

[jgr]

They were not living in the time of the end. Really, what I think is going to convince you regarding my charts is when the EU forms that ten leader form of government, which the little horn appears.

The NT writers were. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The little horn appeared long ago.

 

[Douggg]

The NT writers were. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The little horn appeared long ago.

Look at my chart below, the double asterisks. You can click on the chart to zoom in.

 

[Timtofly]

So an angel which has the seal of God will appear on earth and start stamping people in the forehead? And when he reaches #144,000 he’s done?


Because when someone puts forth a view it has to make sense. If you can’t define who a Jew is, then why should I believe the view that all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations.

"After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree.
2 I saw another angel coming up from the east with a seal from the living God, and he shouted to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea,
3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”
4 I heard how many were sealed — 144,000 from every tribe of the people of Isra’el:"

Have you ever read this? It gives us the names of 12 tribes next.

Explain what is symbolic about this if you reject God's Word for some man made private interpretation. God sent the angel and the text does not say the angel raised any objection like you have done. I am sure the angel understood clearly, from God, who gets sealed.

How does this effect the re-gathering of Israel? This is the harvest, not the resurrection that comes in Revelation 20:4. Israel alive at that time will see the Lamb as their Messiah. It will be God that opens their eyes, not magic, or a change of heart. But physical death has to happen before the kingdom can start at the first resurrection.

 

[Douggg]

The passage below proves you are not correct.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

I have a chart addressing you claims. Showing the 7th angel sounding, Revelation 11:15, and the reward crowns given to the saints in heaven Revelation 11:18, while here on earth God begins the process of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the great.

 

[grafted branch]

Have you ever read this? It gives us the names of 12 tribes next.

Explain what is symbolic about this if you reject God's Word for some man made private interpretation. God sent the angel and the text does not say the angel raised any objection like you have done. I am sure the angel understood clearly, from God, who gets sealed.

Yes I have read this and my interpretation is this…

Revelation 7:1 has the 4 angels holding the 4 winds of the earth that they shouldn’t blow on the earth, sea, or trees. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind.

Revelation 7:2-3 another angel with the seal of God commands the 4 angels not to hurt the earth, sea, trees till we have sealed the servants of our God. The wind not blowing on the earth is what was hurting it. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind, this is the Gospel being allowed to be preached in all the world (to the Gentiles).

Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed, which is 144,000. I place the 144,000 as being sealed prior to the event of Pentecost because they “were”, as in past tense, sealed.


We have diverted from my original question which was not about the 144,000. I’m going to ask again, can you give a definition of who the Jews will be that return to Israel? If you can’t give me a direct answer on this then I think we should end our conversation. I’m really not interested in having a long debate that wanders into other various topics.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes I have read this and my interpretation is this…

Revelation 7:1 has the 4 angels holding the 4 winds of the earth that they shouldn’t blow on the earth, sea, or trees. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind.

Revelation 7:2-3 another angel with the seal of God commands the 4 angels not to hurt the earth, sea, trees till we have sealed the servants of our God. The wind not blowing on the earth is what was hurting it. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost it was like a mighty rushing wind, this is the Gospel being allowed to be preached in all the world (to the Gentiles).

Revelation 7:4 John hears the number that were sealed, which is 144,000. I place the 144,000 as being sealed prior to the event of Pentecost because they “were”, as in past tense, sealed.


We have diverted from my original question which was not about the 144,000. I’m going to ask again, can you give a definition of who the Jews will be that return to Israel? If you can’t give me a direct answer on this then I think we should end our conversation. I’m really not interested in having a long debate that wanders into other various topics.

So the 12 tribes were well defined in the 1st century but not now?

I’m going to ask again, can you give a definition of who the Jews will be that return to Israel?

Only ones currently alive. Not dead people in sheol.

I am curious though, why did no one in the early church mention 144k believers?

Jesus has 12 disciples and only God knows if each was from a different tribe. James and John were brothers. Andrew and Peter were brothers so that messes with your tribal theory in the 1st century.

Why would the Lamb now in the 21st century not have 1200 from each tribe as His disciples? Revelation 14:1-5

"Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Tziyon; and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing waters and like the sound of pealing thunder; the sound I heard was also like that of harpists playing on their harps.
3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;
5 on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect."

We see the same 144k with God's name sealed on their foreheads. They follow the Lamb everywhere. Is your claim that Jesus did not have the 12 named disciples but in reality there were 144,000 who have followed Jesus during the first 3.5 years of ministry in the 1st century, and will do the same at the Second Coming now in the 21st century? The same Jewish male virgins?

Your point is who can be a true Jew, no? Now you want to know who was a true Jew in the 1st century or now in the 21st century?

My point is Revelation 7 points out that with God all things are possible, even if you claim these 144,000 followed Jesus around both in the 1st century and will do the same in the 21st century. Honestly I can accept them being there in the 1st century, no matter how unplausible. As long as you accept they are still doing the same thing in the 21st century. They are not the church by choice. God chose them personally for a specific task: to be the disciples of the Lamb.

 

[jgr]

Look at my chart below, the double asterisks. You can click on the chart to zoom in.

View attachment 288737

Which writer of Scripture drew it?

 

[Zao is life]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENNIALISTS (3)

So, the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) is the same period as the ‘1260 days’ and follow the ‘times of the Gentiles.’ Combined they are the 1000 years – the realized millennium. (Rev 20:2) Here is the diagram again:

View attachment 288609


Now to the questions, what they actually are and how they impact on us Amillennialists? I believe that we need to make a sensible compromise with futurists concerning this short period. It doesn’t need to include their extreme scenarios, but the following list is worthy of our consideration:

1. The 1260 days / short season is not yet fulfilled. (Rev. 20:3)
   
2. They will begin with a Gentile ‘falling away’ (Matthew 24:10-12)
   
3. Simultaneously, a (Jesus) revival among Jews. (Romans 11:25-27)
   
4. We will see the rise of a final Antichrist figure. (2 Thess. 2:3)
   
5. There will be an end-time Abomination of desolation. (Mark 13:14)
   
6. Believers (Jew and Gentile) will face severe persecution. (Mark 13:19-20)
   
7. The season will end with the resurrection / judgement. (John 5:28-29)

Whew! And there I was thinking that your "ramifications for Amils" would disagree (in the above 7 points you made) with Premils who agree with everything you said in the above 7 points, with reservation (in my case) about

* The word "Gentile" in point #2 (there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ); and
* Your (guesstimation?) in point #3 (which I believe is 100% possible, does not contradict scripture, yet is not stated explicitly enough in scripture to be included in the above points). There is already a quiet (Jesus) revival taking place among the Jews. I'm not looking forward to a major revival among them before the end of this age.

 

[BABerean2]

I have a chart addressing you claims.

I have the text below which addresses your chart.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.