280 Weeks are Determined

[grafted branch]

It mentions Jerusalem, and not all buried in Jerusalem were in Abraham's bosom. So Abraham was left behind? Abraham was not buried in Jerusalem.

Jerusalem (KJV holy city) is the place where they went into not necessarily the place where the graves were located.

Can any one explain to me why God would do a halfway job, and leave part of the church in sheol? At the Second Coming is God going to leave part of the church on the earth? Where is part way found in Scripture?

The 144,000 are called first fruits in Revelation 14:4, so if you’re asking why God would do a halfway job by not resurrecting all the saints in Matthew 27:52-53, then I don’t have an answer for that.

Some people start with Leviticus when looking at the harvest where you have first fruits, main harvest, and then the corners are left for the poor and strangers. The subject of first fruits and harvest probably deserves its own thread if you want more than just my opinion on it.

 

[Timtofly]

Jerusalem (KJV holy city) is the place where they went into not necessarily the place where the graves were located.


The 144,000 are called first fruits in Revelation 14:4, so if you’re asking why God would do a halfway job by not resurrecting all the saints in Matthew 27:52-53, then I don’t have an answer for that.

Some people start with Leviticus when looking at the harvest where you have first fruits, main harvest, and then the corners are left for the poor and strangers. The subject of first fruits and harvest probably deserves its own thread if you want more than just my opinion on it.

I do not interpret it as a "sampling". I am just curious why some deny that all were raised at that time.

The 144k can only happen after the Second Coming.

 

[grafted branch]

I do not interpret it as a "sampling". I am just curious why some deny that all were raised at that time.

The word many <4183> in Matthew 27:52 has been translated as “many” in all the Bible translations I looked at. What translation are you using that has <4183> translated as “all”?

The 144k can only happen after the Second Coming.

Well I say the 144,000 can only happen before the second coming, so I guess we just disagree with each other on this point.

 

[Timtofly]

The word many <4183> in Matthew 27:52 has been translated as “many” in all the Bible translations I looked at. What translation are you using that has <4183> translated as “all”?

The point is only the many in Jerusalem were recorded. That should not exclude the all in the rest of the world. The all did not gather in Jerusalem. Just many were in Jerusalem.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Thank you for that link.

Well, I have kept the same view in mind about Israel's repentance, but without allowing myself to become convinced of something that has not yet materialized.

My views are based on a number of things:-

1. Joseph:
* He was sold into slavery in Egypt (they may as well have handed over to death because they did not know what would become of him) for 20 pieces of silver at the instigation of Judah, who was a scoundrel right up until his repentance. Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
* The Israelites took his robe dipped in blood as evidence to their father that he was dead (though in their case, it was a lie).
.. etc (there are a number of ways in which Joseph is not only a type of Jesus, but actually a prophetic picture).
* Joseph did not reveal to his brothers who he was until Judah showed repentance and remorse for what he had done.
* He could have had all his brothers except Benjamin put to death for what they had done to him, without even allowing them into his presence, and they would have been none the wiser - from their perspective, a very powerful Egyptian ruler, second only to Pharaoh in power and status, had sent them to the dungeon awaiting execution, ancient Egyptian style - but he did not, he forgave them - then "all Israel" was reconciled to him, and he brought them to live with him in the idyllic land of Goshen during a prolonged period of peace, safety and prosperity which only ended when another Pharaoh arose who had no regard for Joseph or Israel.

2. The house of Israel and the House of Judah (the New Covenant is promised to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-33)

* Jacob told Joseph that the seed of his son, Ephraim, would become "the fullness of the Gentiles" (multitude of nations in the English Bibles).
* The Northern Kingdom became collectively known as "Ephraim" in prophecy.
* Though a small handful of the Northern tribes escaped to Judah when Assyria invaded Israel, & this handful became amalgamated with the house of Judah, the vast majority were exiled, scattered among the nations, and their seed intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where the original ten tribes are untraceable today.
* Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the two sticks of Israel and Judah becoming one in the hand of Joseph, compared with Paul's statement regarding there being neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

* The last part is long, as it is an explanation of the above:-

Romans 9:25-26
"As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

In its Old Testament context, the prophecy is talking about "Ephraim" or the house of Israel, but Paul is now applying the prophecy to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus.

The entire prophecy, in its context, speaks about God's judgment (at the time the prophecy was given) regarding both the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

Hosea 1:6-11
"And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And God said to him, Call her name No-mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.
But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

And when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son.
And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God."

The prophecy closes with,

"Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

So at the time Hosea uttered the prophecy, God said He would no more have mercy upon the house of Israel, but He would have mercy on the house of Judah.

Then comes Paul's statement in Romans 11, regarding God's mercy:

Romans 11:30-32
"For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief,
even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy. For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all."

In the days of Hosea, God no more had mercy on Ephraim (the house of Israel), but He had mercy on the house of Judah. At the time of Christ's crucifixion, it was switched around:

Matthew 23:39
"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

I'm not saying that those Gentiles who believe in Christ are genetic descendants of the Northern Israelite tribes (clearly this is not the case). However, the vast majority of the house of Israel (Ephraim) was exiled, scattered among the nations, and their seed intermarried with Gentiles to the point where the original ten tribes are untraceable today.

So to me, this means that "the Olive tree" in Romans 11 still consists of those to whom the New Covenant was promised - "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into the olive tree among the remnant of the house of Judah who believe, but we are considered the house of Israel.

Hence, my handle and my signature.

I still don't believe this "theology" which I expressed here, because it's not a materialized reality, and obviously too many Christians have major issues with it - but It's something I bear in mind.

Interesting thoughts. For a moment I thought you may have been British Israel or some such thing. Then you steered away from that. Ok, i’ii have a chew on it.

So, are you saying that Ephraim is now figuratively speaking of the Gentiles?

 

[grafted branch]

The point is only the many in Jerusalem were recorded. That should not exclude the all in the rest of the world. The all did not gather in Jerusalem. Just many were in Jerusalem.

Are you trying to say that all the saints that were outside of Jerusalem arose and only many saints in Jerusalem arose? You still wouldn’t have every saint arising because Jerusalem would only have many saints arising.

I personally try not to force a puzzle pieced that doesn’t fit and that’s what it looks like your trying to do with this verse to make it fit your end time view.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you trying to say that all the saints that were outside of Jerusalem arose and only many saints in Jerusalem arose? You still wouldn’t have every saint arising because Jerusalem would only have many saints arising.

I personally try not to force a puzzle pieced that doesn’t fit and that’s what it looks like your trying to do with this verse to make it fit your end time view.

How can Abraham's bosom being emptied prove any end time theology?

Does it effect your end time theology?

Matthew only pointed out the many in Jerusalem. For the all in Abraham's bosom, it would be bodies walking around all over the earth, of all from Abraham's bosom. They seem to come from where their bodies died, not out of a door leading to sheol somewhere in the area of Jerusalem.

It is a rather simple image of those in Abraham's bosom, or so I thought. I did not realize it was that complicated of a point. Matthew only mentioned the bodies near Jerusalem, but was not excluding the rest in the rest of the earth.

Saying all the bodies came out of their graves, would be false. Not all the dead in Jerusalem were in Abraham's bosom. Jerusalem was the scene of many deadly battles of wicked humans. Matthew was only talking about those in Abraham's bosom.

 

[Zao is life]

Interesting thoughts. For a moment I thought you may have been British Israel or some such thing. Then you steered away from that. Ok, i’ii have a chew on it.

So, are you saying that Ephraim is now figuratively speaking of the Gentiles?

Yes. I believe that the Gentles who believe in Jesus are regarded by God as the house of Israel (Paul applied the prophecy regarding the house of Israel to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus). So Abraham became the father of many nations through his great-grandson, Ephraim (fulfilling Jacob's/Israel's prophecy seen in my signature). It did not depend on genetic ancestry:

Matthew 3:9
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

 

[grafted branch]

How can Abraham's bosom being emptied prove any end time theology?

Does it effect your end time theology?

Matthew only pointed out the many in Jerusalem. For the all in Abraham's bosom, it would be bodies walking around all over the earth, of all from Abraham's bosom. They seem to come from where their bodies died, not out of a door leading to sheol somewhere in the area of Jerusalem.

It is a rather simple image of those in Abraham's bosom, or so I thought. I did not realize it was that complicated of a point. Matthew only mentioned the bodies near Jerusalem, but was not excluding the rest in the rest of the earth.

Saying all the bodies came out of their graves, would be false. Not all the dead in Jerusalem were in Abraham's bosom. Jerusalem was the scene of many deadly battles of wicked humans. Matthew was only talking about those in Abraham's bosom.

I’m not sure if this is the point your trying to get across but after thinking about this and Matthew 27:52; perhaps it can be viewed as all the graves were opened but only some of the saints arose or were bodily resurrected. In other words Abraham’s bosom was cleaned out spiritually but not all the physically dead bodies were resurrected.

In Acts 2:29 David is both dead and buried, along with his sepulcher being with them at that time.

So when we get to Revelation 20:5 the rest of the dead live not again till the 1,000 years are over. This could be views as the rest of the physical bodies live not again till the 1,000 years are over. Matthew 27:52 can most certainly be view as the first physical bodily resurrection of saints. I have to mention also that I don’t find fault with the Amil view that Christ was the first resurrection because He arose before those in Matthew 27:52.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yes. I believe that the Gentles who believe in Jesus are regarded by God as the house of Israel (Paul applied the prophecy regarding the house of Israel to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus). So Abraham became the father of many nations through his great-grandson, Ephraim (fulfilling Jacob's/Israel's prophecy seen in my signature). It did not depend on genetic ancestry:

Matthew 3:9
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

Interesting. Have other commentators said this or is it something you’ve personally found? I’m not saying you shouldn’t. Finding little revelations is what the Holy Spirit does for us. If so, you may well have a nugget here.

 

[Zao is life]

Interesting. Have other commentators said this or is it something you’ve personally found? I’m not saying you shouldn’t. Finding little revelations is what the Holy Spirit does for us. If so, you may well have a nugget here.

I found this personally because when I read Old Testament prophecy I always ask myself who or what the prophecy is referring to in its own context. It puzzled me why Paul would use Hosea's prophecy regarding the house of Israel/Ephraim when talking about Gentiles receiving mercy when they came to Christ. But then one day when reading Genesis I looked for the Hebrew words for "multitude of nations" in Jacob's prophecy, and immediately linked it to Romans 11:25: I stand to correction but from what I cans see Genesis 48:19 and Romans 11:25 are the only two verses in the Bible where the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" comes up in prophetic utterances.

It took a long while (definitely more than a year) before it dawned on me that just as God had said to the house of Israel that He would no longer have mercy on them but He would have mercy on the house of Judah, so Paul is talking about those Gentiles who believe in Jesus receiving mercy because of the unbelief of the house of Judah, and saying that through our mercy, they too, will receive mercy.

BUT it's not before Judah repents - hence back to Joseph, who is a type of Jesus.

This means that one day corporately the house of Judah, as a people, and the Gentiles as a corporate body, the house if Israel, will be the two sticks which became one in the hand of Joseph, as seen in Ezekiel's prophecy: Because in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Judah nor Ephraim.

There are others who have seen this, but I lever got it from them. I definitely don't follow the "Anglo-Saxon nations are (the) descendants of the northern tribes" business - but there is at least one Gentile who I've become aware of who (it seems to me) has seen the same thing - but I haven't gone into what exactly he believes because I was completely put off his teaching because he dresses up like a Rabbi, insists on sabbath-keeping and on the keeping of the feasts etc. He's gone 100% overboard.

I do believe that the "Anglo-Saxon nations are the lost 10 tribes" and the - Eddie Chumney I think is his name - people have caused the baby to be thrown out with the bath-water by the rest of the church, but these are things I have discovered myself, so I don't toss out the baby.

PS: What I've said here is either (a) actually a theology which is hidden beneath all the confusion, or (b) simply not true.

As long as we are in Christ and He in us, it won't make a difference.

 

[BABerean2]

I stand to correction but from what I cans see Genesis 48:19 and Romans 11:25 are the only two verses in the Bible where the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" comes up in prophetic utterances.

Based on the passage below, Christ returns when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


The following may also be related.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


.

 

[Zao is life]

Based on the passage below, Christ returns when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


The following may also be related.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


.

From what I can see just by the difference in the words there is a difference between fullness of the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles. There did not even have to be "times of the Gentiles" in order for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.

 

[Douggg]

Yes. I believe that the Gentles who believe in Jesus are regarded by God as the house of Israel (Paul applied the prophecy regarding the house of Israel to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus).

The reference to the fullness of the gentiles - puts the gentiles as occupiers of Jerusalem in the negative sense.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

_______________________________________________

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

At the end of the 42 months (i.e. at the end of the second half of the 70th week) ...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

_________________________________________________________

The fullness of the Gentiles pertains to the occupation of Jerusalem. Which ends with the powers of heaven shaken.

Which will be at the end of the 7 year 70th week, culminating by Jesus's return.

 

[Zao is life]

What does the text of Revelation 11:15-18 actually say?

.

It says that the 7th trumpet = the 3rd woe.

 

[Zao is life]

The reference to the fullness of the gentiles - puts the gentiles as occupiers of Jerusalem in the negative sense.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

_______________________________________________

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

At the end of the 42 months...

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

_________________________________________________________

The fullness of the Gentiles pertains to the occupation of Jerusalem. Which ends with the powers of heaven shaken.

Which will be at the end of the 7 year 70th week, culminating by Jesus's return.

I won't debate it because I don't agree with any reasons you give for your belief that "fullness" is talking about the "times" or the activities of the Gentiles. The context of Paul's statement in Romans 11:25-33 is salvation of those who believe in Christ and had received mercy vs the cutting off of those who rejected Christ. Paul's statement in Rom 11:25, in its context, has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

I don't want to debate it though not because I don't respect your view, but because I know you are convinced and so am I and this thread is not about our disagreement on what "fullness" means.

 

[BABerean2]

From what I can see just by the difference in the words there is a difference between fullness of the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles.

Can you explain the difference?

Is either related to Galatians 1:14-18?



.

 

[Zao is life]

Can you explain the difference?

Is either related to Galatians 1:14-18?



.

Leave it alone please, BaBerean2. You're torpedoing this thread. In my limited understanding the Fullness of the Gentiles is referring to the full number of the Gentiles who are saved through faith in Christ, the full number of the Gentiles who are to come into the Kingdom of Christ. You then brought up different verses in a different part of the New Testament which in my limited understanding is talking about something totally different, using a completely different word, and those other verses in my limited understanding are not talking about the full number of Gentiles who will come into the Kingdom of Christ merely because those other verses are also talking about Gentiles.

It's not something that we HAVE TO debate about in a thread, because this thread has nothing to do with it. I was talking to the person who started this thread and he and I were discussing only Romans 11:25-33, not the other verses you brought into the subject.

It's not always 100% necessary that we must argue and debate every little thing until the emu admits its a crocodile just to agree with you and get you off its back.

 

[mkgal1]

From what I can see just by the difference in the words there is a difference between fullness of the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles.

I agree.

I believe the "fullness of the Gentiles" is referring to the fullness of the Gentiles inclusion into the Body of believers.

The "time of the Gentiles" (in my belief) was the time of the apostate Jewish zealots trampling the city of Jerusalem for 3.5 years as John was given revelation of (Rev 11:1-2).