280 Weeks are Determined

[grafted branch]

Where do you place the 'Times of the Gentiles?'

I think your timeline chart is correct where you have the times of the Gentiles.

 

[Christian Gedge]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENIALISTS (2)

We have all heard of the ‘the 1260 days.’ Futurists place these at Jesus’ 2nd coming and, as usual, are very literalistic about it. They also conflate it with the last half of Daniels 70 weeks. That is wrong as shown on post #35.

However, Amill’s need to speak more definitively as to what these days actually do mean. Some say they have already happened between AD 67-70 when the temple was destroyed, hence not happen again. Some join with futurists saying they tie back to the 70th week; others don’t. Still others, point to the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) but don’t give a clear explanation as to how or why. It doesn’t complete the Amill argument if we answer the 1000-year question well but not the 1260-day one IMO. So, let’s start.

• First, the 1260 days were a repeating formula in the original Hebrew calendar.
• It was both literal but also figurative representing a very short period of time.
• The modern Jewish calendar no longer uses it. It was replaced in the Greek era.

Therefore, the 1260 days will indeed arrive in the future but is a symbolic figure representing a ‘short time of trial’ after the Times of the Gentiles and ending with the resurrection. No, it will not be a precise literal count; yes, it is the same time as the ‘short season’ mentioned in Revelation 20:3.

Thoughts welcome. (Yes, I am Amill)

 

[Marilyn C]

69 weeks is 483 years. Palm Sunday was in 30 AD. So, the decree that started the count would have had to be 454 BC. However, nothing of significance happened in that year.

Others say Palm Sunday was in 33 AD. So, the decree that started the count would have had to be 451 BC. However, nothing of significance happened in that year either.

Have you heard of Sir Robert Anderson? He was the founder of the Palm Sunday theory - a bunny trail unfortunately. You need to give it the toss.

From March 5, 444 B.C. (Neh. 2: 1 - 5 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem & Temple.)

--> to March 30, 33 A.D. (Zechariah 9: 9 & Luke 19: 29 - 44. Messiah appears as Prince - Palm Sunday.)

The time span is 7 weeks & 62 weeks.

Prophetic - 483 yrs X 360 days.
Calendar - 476 X 365.242 7 25.

 

[Timtofly]

There is also a "dragon" in Revelation 20.
Would that be a giant flying lizard, or is it symbolic of Satan?

There is also a "chain" in the chapter.
Would that be a steel chain like one from the hardware store, or would it be symbolic?

There is also a "prison" in the chapter.
Would that be a room made of rock with steel bars, or is it symbolic of something else?

How do you know the dragon is a giant flying lizard? It could be a t-rex. Watching to many Hollywood movies???

Have you ever visited God's Hardware Store? Perhaps you should, before mocking God’s Word?

 

[Timtofly]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENIALISTS (2)

We have all heard of the ‘the 1260 days.’ Futurists place these at Jesus’ 2nd coming and, as usual, are very literalistic about it. They also conflate it with the last half of Daniels 70 weeks. That is wrong as shown on post #35.

However, Amill’s need to speak more definitively as to what these days actually do mean. Some say they have already happened between AD 67-70 when the temple was destroyed, hence not happen again. Some join with futurists saying they tie back to the 70th week; others don’t. Still others, point to the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) but don’t give a clear explanation as to how or why. It doesn’t complete the Amill argument if we answer the 1000-year question well but not the 1260-day one IMO. So, let’s start.

• First, the 1260 days were a repeating formula in the original Hebrew calendar.
• It was both literal but also figurative representing a very short period of time.
• The modern Jewish calendar no longer uses it. It was replaced in the Greek era.

Therefore, the 1260 days will indeed arrive in the future but is a symbolic figure representing a ‘short time of trial’ after the Times of the Gentiles and ending with the resurrection. No, it will not be a precise literal count; yes, it is the same time as the ‘short season’ mentioned in Revelation 20:3.

Thoughts welcome. (Yes, I am Amill)

The short season could be 1 hour. The 1000 years cannot be 1991 years. Is a day with the Lord 1991 years, or would that be almost 2 days with the Lord?

42 months is longer than a fortnight, but not sure how you can make 42 months any longer or shorter than 42 months, especially when using a calendar. Those black and white square boxes are pretty literal and if you put a number in them, they do not get less literal, or more symbolic. It is just a mathematical way to not cheat on how many square boxes you are declaring. It is when you name one of those square boxes that box is turned into symbolism. Easter, D-day. Those days do not literally happen again and again each year. They are memorial days.

Still not seeing how you can take specific numbers and make them something they are not, and call that symbolism.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What you are not taking into consideration is Revelation has numerous references to specific timeframes, that the 1000 years would not just be a figure of speech.

Which, differently, "the cattle upon a thousand hills" is obviously.

Is the following referring to a literal one hour (60 minute) time frame?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Does this response mean you take those terms literally (dragon, chain, prison)?

Idealists see Revelation as just a basic good vs evil that can apply to all sorts of situations and times. Recognizing that much of Revelation is symbolic doesn't make one an Idealist.

No, it makes someone a common senseist.

 

[Douggg]

Is the following referring to a literal one hour (60 minute) time frame?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

No. And it is obvious that it is not a literal hour.

And can be verified by in Revelation 13, the ten kings have their crowns, when the person will have become the beast.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. And it is obvious that it is not a literal hour.

And can be verified by in Revelation 13, the ten kings have their crowns, when the person will have become the beast.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

So, you acknowledge that not all of the time frames given in Revelation are literal, yet you claim that the 1000 years must be literal. That's interesting.

 

[grafted branch]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENIALISTS (2)

We have all heard of the ‘the 1260 days.’ Futurists place these at Jesus’ 2nd coming and, as usual, are very literalistic about it. They also conflate it with the last half of Daniels 70 weeks. That is wrong as shown on post #35.

However, Amill’s need to speak more definitively as to what these days actually do mean. Some say they have already happened between AD 67-70 when the temple was destroyed, hence not happen again. Some join with futurists saying they tie back to the 70th week; others don’t. Still others, point to the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) but don’t give a clear explanation as to how or why. It doesn’t complete the Amill argument if we answer the 1000-year question well but not the 1260-day one IMO. So, let’s start.

• First, the 1260 days were a repeating formula in the original Hebrew calendar.
• It was both literal but also figurative representing a very short period of time.
• The modern Jewish calendar no longer uses it. It was replaced in the Greek era.

Therefore, the 1260 days will indeed arrive in the future but is a symbolic figure representing a ‘short time of trial’ after the Times of the Gentiles and ending with the resurrection. No, it will not be a precise literal count; yes, it is the same time as the ‘short season’ mentioned in Revelation 20:3.

Thoughts welcome. (Yes, I am Amill)

Yea, I completely agree that the final short season has to be symbolic else people during that time will be able to know the day and possibly the hour of His second coming.

The final short season in Revelation 20:9 is described similar to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in Luke 21. I suspect that the final short season will have some kind of correlation to the 67-70 AD event but in the spiritual sense not physical.

So now I’m interested in if you see this final 1260 days being described elsewhere in Revelation (IMO it’s not but I’m not certain of this).

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yea, I completely agree that the final short season has to be symbolic else people during that time will be able to know the day and possibly the hour of His second coming.

So true. There is a variant futurist view who say exactly that.

So now I’m interested in if you see this final 1260 days being described elsewhere in Revelation (IMO it’s not but I’m not certain of this).

I think it is but, as we know, 1260 is also expressed as 42 months and/or a ‘time, times and ½ time.’ Each of these numbers were used to find intercalary months, but not in the way Sir Robert Anderson claimed. The 360-day year 'prophetic' calendar as quoted above never existed.

 

[grafted branch]

I think it is but, as we know, 1260 is also expressed as 42 months and/or a ‘time, times and ½ time.’ Each of these numbers were used to find intercalary months, but not in the way Sir Robert Anderson claimed. The 360-day year 'prophetic' calendar as quoted above never existed.

I haven’t studied the dates or calendars myself and after looking at your website I really feel like a newcomer on this topic.

I would however like to get your thoughts on Revelation 11.

The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days. When their testimony is finished they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (I would think the 1260 days are completed at this point). Their bodies lie in the street for 3.5 days before they stand on their feet.

Many Amils see the 2 witnesses as the church. Would that mean that the 1,000 years are equated with 1260 days? Also would the 3.5 days (which some people think are another 3.5 years) then be the short season?

 

[Christian Gedge]

I would however like to get your thoughts on Revelation 11.

Hi Grafted Branch,

You are right on the button with chapter 11, but this thread will be turned on its head if we discuss it here. Let me finish the implications of the '280 weeks' then Ill attempt a new thread for you on the 2 witnesses. (Helmets on )

 

[Douggg]

So, you acknowledge that not all of the time frames given in Revelation are literal, yet you claim that the 1000 years must be literal. That's interesting.

The for one hour is not a timeframe involving days, but minutes. And is obviously a figure of speech for the ten kings to be ruling with the beast for the short time of 42 months (of not being impeded by the two witnesses who will be gone).

The timeframes in Revelation are 1260 days, 42 months, a time/times/half time, 3 1/2 days. They comprise the elements of the 7 year 70th week.

The first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

In the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
a time/times/half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

The seven years in Revelation 11:
1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + 42 months (1256 1/2 days) = 2520 days

The seven years in Revelation 12:
1260 days + the war in heaven time (unspecified) + the time/times/half time = 2520 days

The sign of the Son of Man in heaven (Matthew 24:30a) - day 2475

Jesus coming with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30b) - day 2520 to cleanse the temple of those things that made it desolation, ending the 2300 days of the little horn's transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:12-14).

 

[Christian Gedge]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENNIALISTS (3)

So, the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) is the same period as the ‘1260 days’ and follow the ‘times of the Gentiles.’ Combined they are the 1000 years – the realized millennium. (Rev 20:2) Here is the diagram again:

Now to the questions, what they actually are and how they impact on us Amillennialists? I believe that we need to make a sensible compromise with futurists concerning this short period. It doesn’t need to include their extreme scenarios, but the following list is worthy of our consideration:

1. The 1260 days / short season is not yet fulfilled. (Rev. 20:3)
   
2. They will begin with a Gentile ‘falling away’ (Matthew 24:10-12)
   
3. Simultaneously, a (Jesus) revival among Jews. (Romans 11:25-27)
   
4. We will see the rise of a final Antichrist figure. (2 Thess. 2:3)
   
5. There will be an end-time Abomination of desolation. (Mark 13:14)
   
6. Believers (Jew and Gentile) will face severe persecution. (Mark 13:19-20)
   
7. The season will end with the resurrection / judgement. (John 5:28-29)

My request to Amillennialists is that we develop a more detailed description of the ‘short season’ / ‘1260 days’ with the same energy that we have given to our millennium apologetic. My request to Part-Pret Amillennialists that they allow prophetic fulfillments between AD 70 and Christ’s 2nd coming.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

RAMIFICATIONS FOR AMILLENNIALISTS (3)

So, the ‘short season’ (Rev 20:3) is the same period as the ‘1260 days’ and follow the ‘times of the Gentiles.’ Combined they are the 1000 years – the realized millennium. (Rev 20:2) Here is the diagram again:

View attachment 288609

your attachment in post #75 lists the 1000 years as symbolic, please consider the following.

The Lord Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days and rested on the seventh day

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day


Cosmic week for the history of sin,

Garden of Eden to present time based on the genealogy is about 6,000 year, thus six thousand years of sin which correlates with the first six days of the week (IE work) and the last 1000 years where there is no sin as satan is bound correlates to the last day of the week (IE Sabbath rest)


Revelation 20
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

IMO you statement that the 1000 years is symbolic is not supported from the bible. But a literal 1000 years is supported.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The for one hour is not a timeframe involving days, but minutes. And is obviously a figure of speech for the ten kings to be ruling with the beast for the short time of 42 months (of not being impeded by the two witnesses who will be gone).

The timeframes in Revelation are 1260 days, 42 months, a time/times/half time, 3 1/2 days. They comprise the elements of the 7 year 70th week.

The first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

In the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
a time/times/half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

The seven years in Revelation 11:
1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + 42 months (1256 1/2 days) = 2520 days

The seven years in Revelation 12:
1260 days + the war in heaven time (unspecified) + the time/times/half time = 2520 days

The sign of the Son of Man in heaven (Matthew 24:30a) - day 2475

Jesus coming with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30b) - day 2520 to cleanse the temple of those things that made it desolation, ending the 2300 days of the little horn's transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:12-14).

How convenient. You are very selective in how you interpret time periods in Revelation. The "one hour" is "obviously a figure of speech", but all of the other time frames are to be taken literally? So, I guess being selective in how we interpret Revelation is okay with you. It's not okay with me. I believe all of the time periods mentioned in the book of Revelation are figurative. Disagree all you want, but at least I am consistent.

Applying the 42 months and 1260 days to Daniel's 70th week is way off base since Daniel's 70th week has already been fulfilled by the Messiah when He put an end to old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings with His "once for all" sacrifice during the middle of the 70th week which established the new covenant.

Applying Daniel 9:27 to a future Antichrist instead of Christ Himself is one of the most Satanic doctrines in existence.

 

[grafted branch]

• First, the 1260 days were a repeating formula in the original Hebrew calendar.

• It was both literal but also figurative representing a very short period of time.

• The modern Jewish calendar no longer uses it. It was replaced in the Greek era.

Can we back up for a moment to ramification #2? I can agree that the 1260 days are a repeating cycle but can you provide examples of where it is used figuratively?

 

[Douggg]

Applying the 42 months and 1260 days to Daniel's 70th week is way off base since Daniel's 70th week has already been fulfilled by the Messiah when He put an end to old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings with His "once for all" sacrifice during the middle of the 70th week which established the new covenant.

Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-22 and the remainder of Ezekiel 39 ? The 70th week of Daniel 9 is the 7 years that follow the destruction and burial of Gog's army in the latter day and latter years.

You are not the house of Israel. And you are not a Jew. In Luke 21:24, following the destruction of the temple and city, the Jews were led away captives into the nations. In Matthew 24:31, all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations. Ezekiel 39:28 is that gathering.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[grafted branch]

In Matthew 24:31, all of the Jews and the house of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel, from the nations. Ezekiel 39:28 is that gathering.

I have seen this question come up several times but haven’t seen any convincing answers.

What is going to be used to determine who is a Jew? DNA? Citizenship in Israel? Can someone just declare that they are a Jew?