2018 outpouring, are you feeling it? I am!

[2Timothy2:15]

or as NIV says "out of your mind"

NIV, that explains a lot of your doctrine.

 

[Hillsage]

Gee I don't know where I get it, maybe a commentary from an actual theologian.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(13) These men are full of new wine.--Literally, of sweet drink--the word "wine" not being used--stronger and more intoxicating than the lighter and thinner wines that were ordinarily drunk. The Greek word was sometimes used, like the Latin mustum, for the unfermented grape-juice. Here, however, the context shows that wine, in the strict sense of the word, was intended, and the use of the same word in the LXX. of Job 32:19 confirms this meaning. The word for "new wine" in Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22, is different, but there also (see Notes) fermentation is implied. The words, as has been said above (Note on Acts 2:4), point to a certain appearance of excitement in tone, manner, and words.

A certain excitement, or loud voice, talking loud early in the day, like I said.

Now let's see how humble you truly are.

Humble enough to admit when I'm wrong I said. And if that's all you got then I don't have anything to say. Which is where most encounters end up with you. And now, having just read your next post, would be a good time for me to admit you hit the wall earlier than usual.....thanks be to God.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Which again sounds a bit like DRUNK to me. But unlike you I'm not going to say that's what the bible says I'm going to use my sound mind and compare it to my spiritual experience and say all these scriptures 'match' close enough for me. All the while your POV sounds as idiotes to me as it appears to have, to Paul.

Don't be drunk, let's explore the word in original Greek, not NIV corrupted.

The KJV translates Strong's G3182 in the following manner: be drunken (2x), be drunk (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to intoxicate, make drunk
   
   
2. to get drunk, become intoxicated

Scriptures using the same word.

Tools

Luk 12:45

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; G3182
Tools

Eph 5:18

And be G3182 not drunk G3182 with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Tools

1Th 5:7

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken G3182 are drunken in the night.


Now let's look at filled.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 90x
The KJV translates Strong's G4137 in the following manner: fulfil (51x), fill (19x), be full (7x), complete (2x), end (2x), miscellaneous (9x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
   
   1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
         
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
   
   1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
      
      
   2. to consummate: a number
      
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
         
         
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
         
   3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
         
         
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
         
         
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Same Greek word for spirit used here in direct opposite to drunkenness.

Gal 5:19
¶
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22

¶
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Humble enough to admit when I'm wrong I said. And if that's all you got then I don't have anything to say. Which is where most encounters end up with you. And now, having just read your next post, would be a good time for me to admit you hit the wall earlier than usual.....thanks be to God.

Pretty much just as I predicted isn't it. Now you say that bible commentaries written by theologians and not good as your understanding....gotcha

 

[Hillsage]

Pretty much just as I predicted isn't it. Now you say that bible commentaries written by theologians and not good as your understanding....gotcha

If a punch drunk tells the guy who's beat him to a standing knockout; "YOU lOST!" I'd bet it falls on deaf ears. Please say goodbye. Thinking the 'last word' means one has won is just another sign that one doesn't know when to quit. Not just to the 'one being addressed' either, but to all who are viewing also.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

Can I ask you why you believe it is, that you don't have your prayer language?

I don't know,I spoke in tongues once when I was initially filled with the holy spirit,but no matter how much I pray since than and that was yrs ago it just doesn't come to me.I guess I just simply dont have that gift.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

[

That's why I asked for Sunshine to tell me why she, as a Pentecostal doesn't pray in tongues. I'm asking because if she is also believing one of the errors they make, then maybe I can help her to receive truth along with her prayer language. That was my motivation.[/QUOTE]

I believe in the gift of speaking in tongues,I just simply dont have the gift of it myself.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't know,I spoke in tongues once when I was initially filled with the holy spirit,but no matter how much I pray since than and that was yrs ago it just doesn't come to me.I guess I just simply dont have that gift.

This is interesting to me. I believe that if you spoke once in tongues, then you've got it. And it's not a gift you can get and then loose IMO. I do believe we can 'lay it down'. And I think scripturally Timothy may have even laid it down for a time based upon Paul's admonition that he stir it up again.

2TI 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

So I am curious, when it happened was it just a few words or like a sentence or more?

 

[sunshineforJesus]

Well please don't judge but I never really pursued it since I am shy,and if I ever spoke out in
tongues in church I would feel like everyone is staring at me. When I did speak in tongues it was just a short sentence. I suppose I did lay it down inadvertently.

 

[Hillsage]

Well please don't judge but I never really pursued it since I am shy,and if I ever spoke out in
tongues in church I would feel like everyone is staring at me. When I did speak in tongues it was just a short sentence. I suppose I did lay it down inadvertently.

No judgment here, just a sincere desire that you walk in everything God has for you. First off, let me say this, you don't ever have to pray in tongues loud enough for anyone to hear, in a church setting. I often do that. I also often sing in tongues when we are in a time of worship and singing songs. It's easy to sing and just blend with everyone else. Question, has your church explained the difference between the 'tongue' which comes from 'your spirit' to pray to God with, as opposed to the 'tongue' which comes from the 'Holy Spirit' for God to speak to man with?

 

[wonderkins]

There are no private prayer languages. The Bible doesn't teach that. If someone is not speaking in an actual language used by people, then what they are doing is not found in the Bible.

And why would someone need to speak to God in gibberish? Doesn't God understand the languages used by men?

 

[Hillsage]

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The tongue spoken of here, and understood by a Charismatic church, but obviously not the nominal church of today, is prayer tongues. The context would only reveal that to those who truly understand. And spirit is not capitalized, for a reason. This is not talking about the "gift of tongues" which is manifested as the Holy Spirit wills for the edification of others. Not to be confused as a man wills, when praying in tongues.

1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Hopefully those here seeking the truth can see that there is a language that is NOT KNOWN to either 'our mind' or the 'minds' of anyone for "no man understandeth". It is the prayer language meant to be from your spirit to God.

 

[wonderkins]

I see you're using the kjv. You do know don't you, that the word "unknown" was not in the original Greek, but added to the kjv?

Spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church. They are not for personal gain. That's why the biblical tongues needed to be interpreted. All Paul was saying is without an interpreter, who would know what you're saying but God.

But there is still the issue of needing an interpreter. Most people who "speak in tongues" in private would say they don't know what they're saying. What's the use of that? Why not speak to God in your natural language?

What does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 14:19?

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:19, KJV)

Also, if the tongues being done now are from God, why do people have to be taught to do it, and usually starting at a young age?

 

[Hillsage]

I see you're using the kjv. You do know don't you, that the word "unknown" was not in the original Greek, but added to the kjv?

Doesn't matter if "unkown" is in the text. The rest of the verse still supports "unfruitful mind" or "unfruitful understanding" in other translations including yours, as well as the KJV. All of which means UNKNOWN if you put 2+2 together as I just did. Whereas you just skipped dealing with that portion of the verse. And it is that kind of 'cut and paste' theology which leads to half truths of understanding.

Spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church. They are not for personal gain. That's why the biblical tongues needed to be interpreted. All Paul was saying is without an interpreter, who would know what you're saying but God.

Spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit edify the church. The gift of tongues 'from and for' your spirit is for 'self edification' and not 'the church'.

1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue (from his spirit) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul tells us our spirit's prayer tongue which is "unknown to man" edifies us but no one else. And Paul tells us he wants all of us to do that. But even more that we should prophesy. And then he tells us that 'tongues with interpretation' is equivalent to prophesy. So if my spirit's unknown to man prayer tongue would also be of benefit to the congregation then the Holy Spirit might just give His SUPERNATURAL "gift of interpreting tongues" for that purpose.

But there is still the issue of needing an interpreter. Most people who "speak in tongues" in private would say they don't know what they're saying.

There is no natural interpreter for SUPERNATURAL tongues which no man understands.

What's the use of that why not speak to God in your natural language?

What can I say that hasn't been said with scripture already? "SELF EDIFICATION". As for the rest of your question, read your bible because it answers it.

1CO 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit (unknown tongues), AND I will pray with the understanding/mind (English) also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

And that's what I do. I pray in tongues and I pray in English.

What does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 14:19?

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. (1 Corinthians 14:19, KJV)

I agree, and what I've shared matches perfectly....but only if you understand better, that which you have never received. Therefore you can not apply your experience to scripture like I can/do.

Also, if the tongues being done now are from God, why do people have to be taught to do it, and usually starting at a young age?

Nobody is teaching 'unknown tongues'. They are trying as best they can to get people to get it. And, just like the Charismatic church of Corinth mistakes are still made. Mistakes because there's still ignorance on our side of the Charismatic experience. But, that is an experience which your side fights to not receive. That's why your side is considered as being "ungifted/unlearned" according to your bible. It's also why you bring some of the questions above, to the subject.

 

[wonderkins]

You've just divided the body into classes. The haves and the have nots.

You've also just wrestled the Bible to the ground to make it match charismatic teachings. I don't know that any theologian would agree with your interpretations. And Rick Joyner is no theologian. Neither is Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn.

That's one reason I'm so thankful to God for removing me from that system. When I first heard expository preaching, it was like I was learning the Bible for the first time. It was surprising how much I didn't know because none of the pentecostal preachers I grew up with were teaching the Bible. It's why churches will take James 5:14 and tell the congregation that the Bible promises divine healing for every believer when that is not what it's saying.

You would benefit greatly from exposing yourself to expository preaching. I know you'll avoid it like the plague, but John MacArthur has a 13 message series called Charismatic Chaos. I recommend it.

 

[wonderkins]

This will be my final post on this thread. I know that unless God in His great mercy reveals the error to you, everything said is just wasted internet ink. I know this from personal experience.

For anyone interested, here is a link to MacArthur's charismatic chaos series.

Charismatic Chaos

 

[Hillsage]

You've just divided the body into classes. The haves and the have nots.

You've also just wrestled the Bible to the ground to make it match charismatic teachings. I don't know that any theologian would agree with your interpretations. And Rick Joyner is no theologian. Neither is Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn.

That's one reason I'm so thankful to God for removing me from that system. When I first heard expository preaching, it was like I was learning the Bible for the first time. It was surprising how much I didn't know because none of the pentecostal preachers I grew up with were teaching the Bible. It's why churches will take James 5:14 and tell the congregation that the Bible promises divine healing for every believer when that is not what it's saying.

You would benefit greatly from exposing yourself to expository preaching. I know you'll avoid it like the plague, but John MacArthur has a 13 message series called Charismatic Chaos. I recommend it.

I wasn't even going to answer this post because it caused too many chuckles to even take serious. But the last coup was your plug for John McArthur. I had a friend invite me to a men's bible study he went to. He never knew I was a Charismatic, he just knew I was a Christian and our daughters played on the basketball team together and we'd travel to the games as a couples and fellowship 'at his fundamentalist level'. Well I told him I didn't think I'd fit in with the 'group'. Especially when he mentioned that the leader was one of the biggest anti Charismatics in town and his reputation preceded him. My friend told me to pray about it and I said I would. And being a man of my word I did, just knowing that God would laugh as hard as I was at the thought. SURPRISE SURPRISE....the Lord said to GO to it!!! I was incredulous and said what on earth for Lord? His reply was; "You have never submitted to authority for authorities sake. You go and submit to 'the leader' and don't say anything spiritual that would upset the group." So I did go....for 1 year before He said I was released to speak freely. I went listening and interacting but never rocking their fundamental boat. I even suffered through an entire book of McArthurism and his anti Charismatic theology you're apparently impressed with. Well, I wasn't. As soon as the day came and we finished that book, I left the bible study and threw that hardbound book in the first dumpster I could find. I was just wishing it would have a least been a cheap paperback instead.

And then there's the story I have where I actually went to a men's retreat where I got to sit and eat lunch with the speaker. Who just happened to have taught at Dallas Theological as an old testament professor with John....until he was 'Surprised by the Spirit'. Which is the name of the book he wrote after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He really thought so lowly of McArthur he even mentioned him several times in the first book he wrote on his changed theology and changed testimony. But his newfound 'HAVE' experience just didn't fly with the smart college theologians at Dallas Theological.

I say all that just to let you know that your impression with John boy doesn't surprise me. But I certainly know enough to not follow John or 'your desire for me' to become a 'HAVE NOT'. Because you're right, it really does boil down to the 'HAVES' and the 'HAVE NOTS'. But having been a 'HAVE NOT', before I became a 'HAVE', gives me an advantage you just don't have.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

No judgment here, just a sincere desire that you walk in everything God has for you. First off, let me say this, you don't ever have to pray in tongues loud enough for anyone to hear, in a church setting. I often do that. I also often sing in tongues when we are in a time of worship and singing songs. It's easy to sing and just blend with everyone else. Question, has your church explained the difference between the 'tongue' which comes from 'your spirit' to pray to God with, as opposed to the 'tongue' which comes from the 'Holy Spirit' for God to speak to man with?

Thanks so much and I too want all that God has for me,and seek him with
all my heart daily. I don't understand the difference between the tongues.
I am holy spirit filled and can often sense Gods spirit so strongly it makes me shake.

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks so much and I too want all that God has for me,and seek him with
all my heart daily. I don't understand the difference between the tongues.
I am holy spirit filled and can often sense Gods spirit so strongly it makes me shake.

I don't know how deep you're interested in going, but here is a breakdown of TONGUES.

THREE TONGUES AND THREE PURPOSES

(1) Prayer tongues. From our spirit to God For Self edification
(2) Tongues with interpretation. From God’s Spirit to us For Church edification
(3) Tongues without interpretation. From God’s Spirit to us For World edification

Scripture uses and describes three different tongues and three different purposes for them. Until one is able to see these three differences at the surface level, they will have great difficulty plumbing their depths in scripture because of the confusing array of undifferentiated tongue ‘verses’. Scripture ‘verses’ which are biblically lumped under that one, all-inclusive category of ‘TONGUES’. And the chapter that is of particular difficulty is found in 1Cor. 14. That leaves it up to us to ‘rightly divide the word of truth’ when determining ‘which tongue’ scripture is talking about.

(1) Prayer tongues:
FROM…MY SPIRIT PRAYING to God, as I will, for SELF-EDIFICATION

(1Co 14:4, Jud 1:20). (This is an angelic/spiritual language (1Co 13:1, 14:14). It is therefore also an unknown tongue to mankind (1Co 14:2). This is our spirit’s gift/ability.)

1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue (spirit/prayer) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

JUD 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves (self edification) on your most holy faith, praying in the holy ghost, (praying in tongues).

1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men (earthly languages) and of angels (angelic/spiritual/heavenly languages /God’s Spirit and our spirit), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue (spiritual/heavenly prayer/language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (Not capitalized because it’s your spirit)

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (spirit prayer tongue) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (his spirit) he speaketh mysteries.

(If “no man understands” this language then it is not an earthly language, it spiritual/angelic.)


(2) Tongues WITH interpretation:
(2gifts equal to prophesy 1Co 14:5), FROM …THE HOLY SPIRIT speaking through individuals as HE WILLS (1Co 12:11), for CHURCH EDIFICATION (1Co 14:5). (This is an unknown tongue to the speaker AND interpreter, but MAY be a known language to man (earthly language) (1Co 14:5). This is the Holy Spirits gifting/ability to/through us.)

1CO 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues ( prayer tongues for self edification) but rather that ye prophesied (Holy Spirit tongues & interpretation): for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues (prayer tongues), except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (‘Prayer tongues’ from your spirit only helps you. ‘Holy Spirit tongues & interpretation’ helps others).

1CO 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (The Holy Spirit’s tongue’ is only given/gifted as He/The Spirit wills, and as we willingly yield to Him in faith to speak that tongue or give an interpretation to a Holy Spirit tongue, with 'the gift of interpretation of tongues' if that's what He's gifted us.)


(3) Tongues WITHOUT interpretation:
God’s HOLY SPIRIT speaking through individuals as HE WILLS to minister the gospel for WORLD EDIFICATION as happened on the day of Pentecost. This was/is a known language of man. But it was/is unknown to the speaker, but it is known to the receiver/hearer (Acts 2:1-13, 1Co 12:10). ( This also is The Holy Spirit’s gifting/ability to us.)

ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the holy ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (This verse speaks of their initial ‘spirit baptism’ and ‘prayer tongue’ which is an unknown tongue to man.)

ACT 2:6 Now when this (the prayer tongue from their spirit vs 4 above) was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (Holy Spirit tongues. After prayer tongues from their spirit, this was the subsequent Holy Spirit's ‘gift of tongues, without interpretation’. It was from The Holy Spirit and was given after the crowd heard the “noise/sound” of ‘prayer tongues’, which caused them to gather to where the disciples were.)

1CO 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (This speaks of The Holy Spirit’s 'gifts of tongues and interpretation of tongues' and is not talking about our spirit’s language.)

SUNSHINE;
The error so often seen in Pentecostal settings IMO is when people get emotinally worked up and think that when they get up and speak loud enough for the congregation to hear, that they are manifesting the Holy Spirit's 'gift of tongues'. But in reality they are manifesting their own prayer language.

If you have any questions, please just ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

Thanks so much,That is very interesting and
Informative. Can you tell I am holy Spirit filled?