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Straightshot said in post 69:

I see you mixing the Lord's nation of Israel with the "church"

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Straightshot said in post 69:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] at the end of this present age .... not the "church" of both a few of Israel and mostly the Gentiles of the nations

Regarding Matthew 24, note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jews or Gentiles), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Straightshot said in post 69:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] at the end of this present age .... not the "church" of both a few of Israel and mostly the Gentiles of the nations

Regarding the time of Jacob's trouble, which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7), note that it won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation.

Straightshot said in post 69:

Matthew 25:1-13 is about the a very different separation than those taken and left in Matthew 24

Regarding Matthew 25:1-13, which is the 10-virgins parable, note that it shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Straightshot said in post 69:

This passage of scripture should be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:9-20

Regarding Revelation 3:9-20, in verse 9a, like in Revelation 2:9b, the people being referred to were unbelieving, genetic Jews living in the literal, 1st century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Unbelieving, genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they are physically circumcised, they are spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually they aren't Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all believers, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the 1st century AD, in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

Straightshot said in post 69:

This passage of scripture should be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:9-20

Regarding Revelation 3:9-20, verse 10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Straightshot said in post 69:

The separation of those with oil [the Lord's holy spirit] and those without is the difference between a true believer and one who professes only

This passage of scripture should be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:9-20

Regarding Revelation 3:9-20, note that verse 20 wasn't addressing unbelievers, but people who were already saved, already part of the church (Revelation 3:14,22). But after entering into initial salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), those addressed had became so lukewarm in their works (Revelation 3:15-16) that they were in danger of ultimately losing their salvation (Revelation 3:16). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30). Also, those addressed had become sinful (Revelation 3:17-18), so that they were warned that they needed to repent (Revelation 3:19). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sinfulness (Hebrews 10:26-29).

So the shut door in Revelation 3:20, separating the initially-saved people from Jesus, can represent the danger they were in of ultimately losing their salvation. Their hearing Jesus' knockings, his warnings to them (Revelation 3:19,16), and their getting up to open the door to him, can then represent their repenting from their laziness and sinfulness, and entering back into an ultimately-saving relationship with Jesus.

Jesus' eating in Revelation 3:20 can represent his obedience to God the Father, his doing good works for the Father (John 4:34). The believer in Revelation 3:20 eating with Jesus can then represent that believer having real fellowship with Jesus, and God the Father, by his obedience to Jesus (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

*******

Straightshot said in post 71:

Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 .... the Lord's evidence

Both describe Israel in the Middle East during the coming time of Jacob's trouble in the tribulation period

Regarding Luke 21:20-36, and verse 20's reference to "Judaea" (as also in Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
 
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Straightshot

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"so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel"


Nay

The Gentiles have been added to the Lord's salvation of both "Jew" and Gentile without regard for national identity

The Gentiles of the nations have not been grafted to the Lord's nation of ethnic Israel .... never have been, never will be

The nation of Israel is one thing .... the nations of the Gentiles are are another from Genesis to Revelation

Replacement theology is a ruse
 
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parousia70

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I find that my looking for the return of Jesus Christ motivates me to work more energetically & enthusiastically doing all I can to help others.

Interesting... I find that i get the exact same motivation from the sure and certain knowledge that I am not guaranteed my next breath.

Speculation about "maybe Jesus will return in my lifetime" doesn't motivate me near as much as the sure and certain knowledge that I am not guaranteed my next breath.

Why is the speculation about Jesus perhaps, maybe, possibly returning in your lifetime more motivating to you than the absolute certainty of your own mortality?
 
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Luke17:37

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It is worth remembering that both Noah & Lot were taken out of harm's way by divine intervention - those "left" were destroyed. The ark was lifted up above the earth (Genesis 7:17) and Lot was physically taken out of Sodom (Genesis 19:16-17).

You have a fine way of turning the context of Jesus' example upside down by redefining His terms. In His example, those who were taken ("took," because it was an active verb) were the wicked who were killed, and Noah was left to survive.

We cannot just make up meanings for words to suit our preferred interpretation. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and I know it was translated by men who used lexicons to determine the range of meaning of Biblical words

What you can say is that "took" ("airo" Matthew 24:39) and "destroyed" ("apollymi" Luke 17:27) share a common meaning in this context.

What you cannot say is that "taken" ("paralambano" Matthew 24:40) means "destroyed". Nor can you say that "left" ("aphiemi" Matthew 24:40) means "saved".

In the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 17, took/taken and destroyed mean the same thing. That is all I've been saying. I'm not saying that the words are always synonyms. Sit Luke 17 and Matthew 24 side by side and it's obvious. Well, to me, it is.

When I realized the taken and left is not about a pre-Trib rapture, I put Pre-Trib on trial. It was slaughtered. If we're honest, everyone would prefer Pre-Tribulation. It isn't about what I want. This is about what Scripture actually teaches.
 
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ken777

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In the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 17, took/taken and destroyed mean the same thing. That is all I've been saying. I'm not saying that the words are always synonyms. Sit Luke 17 and Matthew 24 side by side and it's obvious. Well, to me, it is.
The context of Matthew 24:37-42 & Luke 17:26-37 is that the godly (like Noah & Lot) are saved and the ungodly are destroyed. It says nothing about the meaning of the words "taken" & "left". We can only understand the meaning of these two words by studying their meanings ... which you seem strangely reluctant to do.

Don't you think it is interesting that "paralambano" (taken) is used 54 times in the NT, and nowhere else does it have the meaning you ascribe to it in Matthew 24:40 & Luke 17:34?

When I realized the taken and left is not about a pre-Trib rapture, I put Pre-Trib on trial. It was slaughtered. If we're honest, everyone would prefer Pre-Tribulation. It isn't about what I want. This is about what Scripture actually teaches.
I think it shows a need to look more deeply to say that one position or the other is "slaughtered". I am aware of well-researched Bible studies that support pre-, mid-, & post tribulation rapture interpretations.

Consider the role of parents who have unsaved children ... do you really think all of those want to be taken up in the rapture while their children are left behind?
 
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ken777

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Why is the speculation about Jesus perhaps, maybe, possibly returning in your lifetime more motivating to you than the absolute certainty of your own mortality?

Your question assumes something I did not say. Based on possibilities, I think Jesus return is more likely to occur before my death ... but both events are motivating.
 
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Razare

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No, that's not anything of the end end in 2017. It's another year in that direction.

Stuff is going on this year and next year, but it's not Revelation stuff.

Hear from God, ask him what is going to happen, you will get a totally different story than what the world and circumstances are telling you.

When I wanted to know these things about what is happening last year, God showed me. God told me in dreams and visions. He will tell you, just ask. Then you don't have to guess and wonder at what the world is doing trying to make sense out of things when we can't.
 
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Luke17:37

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I think it shows a need to look more deeply to say that one position or the other is "slaughtered".

When I say "slaughtered," I mean that I'm 100% convinced Scripture neither teaches nor accommodates it...

Similarly, the Bible doesn't teach nor accommodate millions of years in Genesis 1 (see Exodus 20:11). But there remain a great number of Christians today (even very popular theologians) who refuse to believe that God created in six ordinary days roughly six thousand years ago. I try to show people what the Scriptures say and why they conflict with the idea of millions of years, yet many refuse to hear. The Bible prophesies that the full end of such beliefs is apostasy (2 Peter 3:3-9).

I am aware of well-researched Bible studies that support pre-, mid-, & post tribulation rapture interpretations.

I myself have written such a study, but not as an encyclopedia of views (that is, showing them as equally viable). I spent two and half years studying both testaments (with Tribulation, Return of Christ, and Millennial Kingdom in mind) before I began to write.
 
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ken777

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When I say "slaughtered," I mean that I'm 100% convinced Scripture neither teaches nor accommodates it...

Similarly, the Bible doesn't teach nor accommodate millions of years in Genesis 1 (see Exodus 20:11). But there remain a great number of Christians today (even very popular theologians) who refuse to believe that God created in six ordinary days roughly six thousand years ago. I try to show people what the Scriptures say and why they conflict with the idea of millions of years, yet many refuse to hear. The Bible prophesies that the full end of such beliefs is apostasy (2 Peter 3:3-9).



I myself have written such a study, but not as an encyclopedia of views (that is, showing them as equally viable). I spent two and half years studying both testaments (with Tribulation, Return of Christ, and Millennial Kingdom in mind) before I began to write.
While it is good to be thoroughly convinced of what we accept as Biblical truth, it is also wise to understand opposing points of view. To that end I would encourage you to compare "harpazo" (caught up) in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and
"paralambano" (taken) in Matthew 24:40.
 
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ken777

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No, that's not anything of the end end in 2017. It's another year in that direction.
As author of the OP, let me emphasize that I did not say 2017 is the end. In fact I am saying, as you did, it's another year in that direction. I believe that each year, especially since the twin towers incident, has brought events that point to the Lord's soon return.
 
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Luke17:37

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While it is good to be thoroughly convinced of what we accept as Biblical truth, it is also wise to understand opposing points of view. To that end I would encourage you to compare "harpazo" (caught up) in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and
"paralambano" (taken) in Matthew 24:40.

1 Thessalonians 4 describes a resurrection-gathering. The dead in Christ are raised first at Jesus' coming. The survivors are gathered and changed (1 Corinthians 15) just afterwards.

Revelation 20 describes two resurrections. The first resurrection is the blessed resurrection (for believers), and the second, after the millennium, is for the rest. People who are beheaded because of their witness to Jesus and for the word of God and who don't take the mark of the beast are included in this first resurrection. The mark of the beast is distinctly a part of the Tribulation (Revelation 13, 14). Since the gathering of the living doesn't precede the resurrection of the dead, there can't be a gathering before the Tribulation.
 
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Straightshot said in post 82:

Replacement theology is a ruse

Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

Also, immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
 
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Bible2+

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Luke17:37 said in post 91:

Revelation 20 describes two resurrections. The first resurrection is the blessed resurrection (for believers), and the second, after the millennium, is for the rest. People who are beheaded because of their witness to Jesus and for the word of God and who don't take the mark of the beast are included in this first resurrection. The mark of the beast is distinctly a part of the Tribulation (Revelation 13, 14). Since the gathering of the living doesn't precede the resurrection of the dead, there can't be a gathering before the Tribulation.

That's right.

And, indeed, nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation gathering together (rapture) of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
 
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ken777

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1 Thessalonians 4 describes a resurrection-gathering. The dead in Christ are raised first at Jesus' coming. The survivors are gathered and changed (1 Corinthians 15) just afterwards.

Revelation 20 describes two resurrections. The first resurrection is the blessed resurrection (for believers), and the second, after the millennium, is for the rest. People who are beheaded because of their witness to Jesus and for the word of God and who don't take the mark of the beast are included in this first resurrection. The mark of the beast is distinctly a part of the Tribulation (Revelation 13, 14). Since the gathering of the living doesn't precede the resurrection of the dead, there can't be a gathering before the Tribulation.
I agree that Revelation 20:4 refers to those in the first resurrection but it is not referring to the believers who go through the tribulation, although superficially it may sound so. The first resurrection is of the Christian elect over the past nearly 2,000 years.

This brings in what the mark of the beast (in the forehead and in the right hand) really is - it has been in operation ever since the first church (1 John 4:3).

There have always been the believers sealed by the Holy Spirit as well as nominal believers (Acts 19:2, 1 Corinthians 3:1, Matthew 7:22-23, Matthew 22:11-13, Matthew 25:1-2, Revelation 3:4.)

The reason there is so much confusion about the rapture is because there are these two groups of Christians in the Church. Those who are "worthy to escape all these things" (Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10) and those who will go through the Tribulation (Revelation 7:14).
 
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Luke17:37

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I agree that Revelation 20:4 refers to those in the first resurrection but it is not referring to the believers who go through the tribulation, although superficially it may sound so. The first resurrection is of the Christian elect over the past nearly 2,000 years.
Yes, it does refer to believers who go through the Tribulation and are killed for their faith. The first resurrection doesn't happen until Jesus comes after the Tribulation. Therefore, believers will be in the Tribulation. Most of them will either die for their faith or turn away from the faith, but God will keep a remnant of faithful believers alive until He comes after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). They might be the 144,000 Israelite believers in Jesus who are sealed with a special seal to protect them from the plagues, plus new converts after that.

This brings in what the mark of the beast (in the forehead and in the right hand) really is - it has been in operation ever since the first church (1 John 4:3).
That's not true. Profession of faith of Jesus doesn't have any connection today with people being unable to buy or sell and also of people being martyred (Revelation 13:15-17, Revelation 14:12-13). The mark of the beast will be required by the physical world.

The reason there is so much confusion about the rapture is because there are these two groups of Christians in the Church. Those who are "worthy to escape all these things" (Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10) and those who will go through the Tribulation (Revelation 7:14).
Those who are counted worthy to escape all these things will die before all these things happen (Isaiah 57:1). There's nothing in the Bible that teaches or even allows for a pre-Tribulation (or mid-Tribulation or pre-wrath) rapture of the Church.
 
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Straightshot

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Notice that there are already immortals on thrones in Revelation 20 .... these are the Lord's true ecclesia who were made immortal just before the tribulation

The others are those who became believers during the tribulation period and were martyred for their faith [Revelation 6:9-10]

There are only two types of resurrections for a man .... the first resurrection to immortality .... and the second to the death of a man's spirit [Revelation 20:11-15]

Also know that Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 are a focus upon Israel in the tribulation .... there are no resurrections stated in either

The elect in this case are the mortal survivors of the tribulation who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals [Matthew 24:29-31]

Also, there will be surviving mortals of the nations of the Gentiles, and those found believing will enter and populate His kingdom as mortals .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 25:31-46]

There will be believing mortals who will enter and populate the millennial kingdom .... no doubt

If all of the believing survivors of the tribulation were resurrected as post-tribulation theology teaches .... there would be no believing mortals to enter

The resurrection noted in Revelation 20 will be for the believing martyrs of the tribulation only .... the resurrection to eternal life

You do not want to experience the second resurrection to damnation and eternal extinction [Revelation 20:11-15]
 
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Riberra

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My comment


Notice that there are already immortals on thrones in Revelation 20 .... these are the Lord's true ecclesia who were made immortal just before the tribulation
Wrong ,those sitting on thrones have been made immortal right there at the moment of the first resurrection.You have zero evidence that they have been made immortal before the first resurrection.
The others are those who became believers during the tribulation period and were martyred for their faith [Revelation 6:9-10]
Wrong again ,the believers who died in Christ will all be made immortal at the same time...at the first resurrection.

Also know that Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 are a focus upon Israel in the tribulation .... there are no resurrections stated in either

The elect in this case are the mortal survivors of the tribulation who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals [Matthew 24:29-31]

Also, there will be surviving mortals of the nations of the Gentiles, and those found believing will enter and populate His kingdom as mortals .... those found in unbelief will be rejected [Matthew 25:31-46]
There will be believing mortals who will enter and populate the millennial kingdom .... no doubt
The believers (Christians if they have not taken the mark of the beast)who will have survive the tribulation unto the coming of Jesus will be made immortal at the first resurrection.
Only those among non Christians survivors (Jews and Gentiles)who will not have taken the mark of the beast will be part of the millennial kingdom as mortal to populate the earth during the millennium.
God will have made sure that a at least a group of humans will never take the mark of the beast.This is the woman who flee in the wilderness under God's protection where she is nourished during the 42 months reign of the beast..
 
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CrystalDragon

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Sure, you are right. The difference now is that certain key events have been fulfilled such as the restoration of Israel (Luke 21:24) and the development of atomic weapons that can destroy the earth. WW1 & WW11 are unprecedented in world history. Some argue that the frequency, intensity, and death toll from natural disasters are increasing.

If WW1 and WW2 were meant to be the catalyst, then the end times probably would have happened decades ago. And as far as some thinking the frequency of natural disasters increasing, don't you think it could just be an easier spread of information in the past 15-20 years thanks to the Internet and social media?
 
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parousia70

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Your question assumes something I did not say. Based on possibilities, I think Jesus return is more likely to occur before my death ... but both events are motivating.

Interesting... seeing as that every single generation prior to ours had Christians who absolutely believed Jesus' Return was more likely to occur before their death, and in every instance, every single one of them was 100% wrong in their expectation, it would seem to me that puts a far heavier weight on the likelyhood that our generation's passing from this earth will predate the return of Christ.

Besides, Heart attacks, annurisms, car accidents, cancer, etc happen to unsuspecting souls every day. You and I are by no means immune and it would seem we have every reason to suspect our personal demise that could literally happen at any minute is a far more likely scenario than the possible return of Jesus sometime after 2017.
 
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