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joshua 1 9 said in post 58:

TX_Matt said:

I'm fairly sure that I read that 2016 was supposed to be this important Jubilee year

If it is then I am still waiting to have everything restored that was stolen from me.

It would be great for most people if the world were to institute the Biblical Jubilee.

For the Jubilee of Leviticus 25:10 allowed all people every 50 years to be set at liberty from being hired servants (Leviticus 25:40), such as wage slaves today, and to return free from all debts to their own plots of land, which they could then work in support of themselves and their families.

This was such a wonderful idea, the world should seriously think about putting it into practice in our own time. For a future, world economic collapse (similar to, but much worse than, 2008's Great Recession) will be brought about by the continued, unsustainable debt loads of the world's banks (in the form of bad loans), and of the world's governments, corporations, and individuals. God knew that eternal, recycling debts (i.e. borrowing or printing new money to pay off old debts) can only result, in the long term, in widespread economic ruin, due to eventual huge defaults or rampant inflation.

Also, the Jubilee idea prevents what we are seeing today: the unbelievable concentration of wealth and land ownership by only a relatively few people when compared with the population of the planet. For example, it was recently claimed that about 60 of the richest people in the world today own more wealth than the 3.5 billion poorest people in the world. It is eternal debt, and the subsequent loss of land ownership, that cannot help but eventually result in wage slavery and inescapable poverty for 99% of the world's population. God knew this. And it cannot last.

Also, a good start to rectify the current, extreme situation would be to abolish all taxes such as income and sales taxes, which hurt the poor (not to mention the middle class) the most, and replace all taxes with a 10% yearly (and global) wealth tax on people with more than a million dollars in wealth. This wealth tax will have to be global, or else the wealthy will simply move their wealth to tax havens with no wealth tax. The money from the wealth tax can then be distributed to the world's poor in the form of sufficient food, clothing, housing, water supplies, farm animals, crop seeds, farm tools, fruit trees, and land for them and their children to be able to support themselves by their own work on their own lands (cf. Micah 4:4a).

*******

joshua 1 9 said in post 59:

Psalm3704 said:

I think she came up with 2033 by taking the 2 days mentioned in Hosea 6:2 for 2000 years and added the age when Christ died and ascended into heaven: 2000 + 33 = 2033.

Jesus most likely was crucified in the year 29. So 2000 years would be the year 2029.

Note that the "2 days" of Hosea 6:2 don't have to be exactly 2,000 years. For 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 don't have to mean exactly 1,000 years. For God can round numbers down. For example, 1 Kings 7:23 in effect rounds 3.14 down to 3. For 1 Kings 7:23 isn't implying that pi is equal to exactly 3. All 1 Kings 7:23 is saying is that a brass basin 10 cubits in diameter had a circumference of 30 cubits, which could have simply been rounded down from a circumference of 31.4 cubits. Or the 10-cubit diameter could have been rounded up from 9.55 cubits, which would have resulted in a circumference of 30 cubits. Or neither the 10-cubit-diameter figure nor the 30-cubit-circumference figure was meant to be taken as an exact figure accurate to 1/100 of a cubit. For 1 Kings 7:23 isn't giving an exact, blueprint description of the basin, nor is it giving a geometry lesson. It is simply giving a general account of how big the basin was.

Similarly, 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 don't have to be giving an exact equation, but can be giving a general idea. Just as God can in effect round 3.14 down to 3, so he could round something like 1,140 down to 1,000. Or he could round something like 999 or 997 up to 1,000.
 
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ken777

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Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

You make some interesting points in your post but I disagree with you here. The Greek word "paralambano" has no reference to death. It has the meaning of being taken into the company of another. When you read the context of Matthew 24:39-42 the other is the "Son of man", "your Lord". This parallels the use of "paralambano" in John 14:3 ("I will come back and take you to be with me" NIV).

I believe the elect are taken to the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) which is the same event mentioned in Matthew 25:10-12 where some are taken in and some are left outside. It is interesting to note that the word for left ("aphiemi") used by Matthew & Luke can have some quite negative connotations, such as abandon.

I find it strange that many versions say "vultures" in Luke 17:37 when it appears to be a direct reference to Job 39:30 which is universally recognized as referring to the eagle (Job 39:27). I believe Luke 17:37 is a figurative reference to believers who "eat" the Lord's flesh (Matthew 26:26-28, John 6:53). It is also a reference to Isaiah 40:31 where those who hope and trust in the Lord are compared to eagles.

convocation.jpg
 
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Luke17:37

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You make some interesting points in your post but I disagree with you here. The Greek word "paralambano" has no reference to death. It has the meaning of being taken into the company of another. When you read the context of Matthew 24:39-42 the other is the "Son of man", "your Lord". This parallels the use of "paralambano" in John 14:3 ("I will come back and take you to be with me" NIV).

I believe the elect are taken to the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) which is the same event mentioned in Matthew 25:10-12 where some are taken in and some are left outside. It is interesting to note that the word for left ("aphiemi") used by Matthew & Luke can have some quite negative connotations, such as abandon.

I find it strange that many versions say "vultures" in Luke 17:37 when it appears to be a direct reference to Job 39:30 which is universally recognized as referring to the eagle (Job 39:27). I believe Luke 17:37 is a figurative reference to believers who "eat" the Lord's flesh (Matthew 26:26-28, John 6:53). It is also a reference to Isaiah 40:31 where those who hope and trust in the Lord are compared to eagles.

View attachment 181419

Hi Ken777,

The meaning of the words for taken and left depends on the context, just like most words. Taken to the grave and taken into the presence of the Lord are radically different concepts that use the same word. It's critical that we understand what Jesus is saying.

Jesus' comparison of Noah's flood to His coming helps us discover the appropriate context. In Matthew, Jesus uses the word translated taken three times. It is clearly His main point.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The people taken all away in the Flood are the wicked people who died in the Flood. If there is any question about this, the same comparison of the Flood to the day of Christ's return is in Luke 17.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So, in the context of the Flood and of the coming of Jesus, taken = destroyed, and it's referring to wicked people.

Jesus uses the "one taken the other left" words extensively in Luke, also.

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [or: vultures] will be gathered together.”

This statement is also given in Matthew as one of the two identifications of Jesus' true return, as opposed to the false returns of Christ which will deceive many people.

The word is translated eagles or vultures, both Luke 17:37, Matthew 24:28. Eagles and vultures eat flesh.

The concept of birds eating flesh of the wicked isn't confined to these two verses.

Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:21 refer to birds feasting on the flesh of the army which is slain by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Coming to an understanding of Luke 17:37 was what prompted me to study the Bible looking for evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture, if it existed, since it clearly isn't here in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 (these being about wicked people dying and birds eating their flesh at Jesus' second coming). This study resulted in my 100% confidence in a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering of the Church at Jesus' Second Coming. That's why I'm Luke 17:37.

(A little more info is in the PDF.)

God bless,

Luke17:37
 

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ken777

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Hi Ken777,

The meaning of the words for taken and left depends on the context, just like most words. Taken to the grave and taken into the presence of the Lord are radically different concepts that use the same word. It's critical that we understand what Jesus is saying.

Jesus' comparison of Noah's flood to His coming helps us discover the appropriate context. In Matthew, Jesus uses the word translated taken three times. It is clearly His main point.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

It would be a mistake to focus on the similarity of the English words "took" and "taken" when different Greek words words ("airo" & "paralambano") are used in Matthew 24:37-41 to convey different meanings. The comparison with Luke 17:26-27 indicates that "airo" in this context means "destroyed". The word "paralambano" conveys the meaning of to take with or to one's self, to receive.

The word is translated eagles or vultures, both Luke 17:37, Matthew 24:28. Eagles and vultures eat flesh.
The concept of birds eating flesh of the wicked isn't confined to these two verses.
Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:21 refer to birds feasting on the flesh of the army which is slain by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Again, it is important to distinguish between the word used in the Gospels (aetos) and in the Revelation passages you referenced (orneon). The word aetos is translated as eagle 3 times in Revelation and always refers to the godly (Revelation 4:7, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 8:13 NRSV). It also seems clear to me that Jesus is referencing Job 39:30 which is uniformly recognized as the eagle.

The symbol of the eagle representing the believer would have been well known from Isaiah 40:31. I think it is also significant that Jesus' teaching on "eating" the flesh of the Son of man (John 6:53) chronologically precedes Luke 17:37 & Matthew 24:28.
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

Matthew 24:7 is a focus upon Israel at the time of the end

Those taken will be taken in the judgment because 2/3 of the nation will not turn to their Messiah and King Jesus Christ .... the other 1/3 will be left as mortals to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the tribulation of those days [Zechariah 14:8-9; Micah 5; Matthew 24:29-31]
 
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Luke17:37

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It would be a mistake to focus on the similarity of the English words "took" and "taken" when different Greek words words ("airo" & "paralambano") are used in Matthew 24:37-41 to convey different meanings. The comparison with Luke 17:26-27 indicates that "airo" in this context means "destroyed". The word "paralambano" conveys the meaning of to take with or to one's self, to receive.


Again it is important to distinguish between the word used in the Gospels (aetos) and in Revelation (orneon). The word aetos is translated as eagle 3 times in Revelation and always refers to the godly (Revelation 4:7, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 8:13 NRSV). It also seems clear to me that Jesus is referencing Job 39:30 which is uniformly recognized as the eagle. The symbol of the eagle representing the believer would have been well known from Isaiah 40:31.

Suit yourself. Words are understood by their context. I don't care if it's Greek or English--the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is that the taken are destroyed.

Believer's bodies won't be eaten by birds. That would be dishonorable. This kind of thing is reserved for wicked people. Examples: 1 Kings 14:11, 1 Kings 16:4, 1 Kings 21:24. At the resurrection-gathering, the surviving elect will join the Lord and the resurrected Church in the sky and be changed. No bodies should be left on earth.

I doubt you examined these passages (Matthew 24 & Luke 17) in depth in Greek because so little time passed between my post and your reply.

Oh, well. Goodbye.
 
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ken777

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Suit yourself. Words are understood by their context. I don't care if it's Greek or English--the context of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is that the taken are destroyed.

Believer's bodies won't be eaten by birds. That would be dishonorable. This kind of thing is reserved for wicked people. Examples: 1 Kings 14:11, 1 Kings 16:4, 1 Kings 21:24. At the resurrection-gathering, the surviving elect will join the Lord and the resurrected Church in the sky and be changed. No bodies should be left on earth.
I doubt you examined these passages (Matthew 24 & Luke 17) in depth in Greek because so little time passed between my post and your reply.
Oh, well. Goodbye.
I have an interest in these passages and have examined them over some years.. It is very helpful to study the different words translated as 'took' and 'taken' in Matthew 24:37-41 - we cannot just ignore the fact that they have different meanings.

I am not suggesting the bodies of believers are eaten by birds. The comment by Jesus in Luke 17:37 comes after His teaching on eating the flesh of the Son of man (John 6:53) and should be understood in the light of this figurative reference. Paul picks up on this analogy in Hebrews 5:14 in his reference to "strong meat". BTW, have you noticed that "body" in Luke 17:37 is singular?
 
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ken777

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My comment
Matthew 24:7 is a focus upon Israel at the time of the end
Those taken will be taken in the judgment because 2/3 of the nation will not turn to their Messiah and King Jesus Christ .... the other 1/3 will be left as mortals to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the tribulation of those days [Zechariah 14:8-9; Micah 5; Matthew 24:29-31]
I don't believe that interpretation takes into account the meanings of the words as I have mentioned in my 2 previous posts.
It is interesting to compare Matthew 24:37-41 with Matthew 25:1-13 because both refer to the coming of the Son of man. Who was taken in and who was left outside?
 
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Straightshot

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I see you mixing the Lord's nation of Israel with the "church"

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] at the end of this present age .... not the "church" of both a few of Israel and mostly the Gentiles of the nations

Matthew 25:1-13 is about the a very different separation than those taken and left in Matthew 24

The separation of those with oil [the Lord's holy spirit] and those without is the difference between a true believer and one who professes only

This passage of scripture should be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:9-20]
 
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ken777

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Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30] at the end of this present age .... not the "church" of both a few of Israel and mostly the Gentiles of the nations
I require evidence :)
 
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Dave Watchman

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You make some interesting points in your post but I disagree with you here. The Greek word "paralambano" has no reference to death. It has the meaning of being taken into the company of another. When you read the context of Matthew 24:39-42 the other is the "Son of man", "your Lord". This parallels the use of "paralambano" in John 14:3 ("I will come back and take you to be with me" NIV).

I believe the elect are taken to the "marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9) which is the same event mentioned in Matthew 25:10-12 where some are taken in and some are left outside. It is interesting to note that the word for left ("aphiemi") used by Matthew & Luke can have some quite negative connotations, such as abandon.

I find it strange that many versions say "vultures" in Luke 17:37 when it appears to be a direct reference to Job 39:30 which is universally recognized as referring to the eagle (Job 39:27). I believe Luke 17:37 is a figurative reference to believers who "eat" the Lord's flesh (Matthew 26:26-28, John 6:53). It is also a reference to Isaiah 40:31 where those who hope and trust in the Lord are compared to eagles.

That's an amazing interpretation. How it looks from where I sit is that we are almost through Luke 17's "days of Lot" which has signaled the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. But not many of the readers understand. This was the reason why Luke separated out from Matthew the repercussions for seeing it standing where it ought not to be: "On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

Because the next thing to happen is very similar to the "days of lot" when on that day fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. This is the sudden destruction that Paul was talking about which comes after the people enjoying "peace and safety". That day will cause massive worldwide death and destruction.

"The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

This is not a random space object that breaks up in Earth's atmosphere and falls haphazardly on the planet. This is from God so it will be directed at wicked places and wicked individuals. Two guys are sleeping in a condo, one on the 30th floor, one on the 4th floor. A burning fragment finds it's target. The man on the 4th floor's life is "taken", while our 30th floor guy is "left" to continue through the tribulation. Two women grinding together, the wicked one is "taken" while the dear saint working next to her is "left" unharmed. The dead will be too numerous to be buried by the survivors so the vultures will have their work cut out for them. The fourth seal will have been opened.

When the world sees the fallout from this destruction and how it was mysteriously directed at specific places, they will know that God is back. This will be the day that the Son of Man will be revealed though His actions. People will attempt to take measures to appease God so that His judgements will stop. And Babylon will quickly rise to enable the revealing of the man of sin.

I can't be 100% sure right now but there looks like something is going on with this Revelation 12 sign. I don't put too much trust in articles from rapture ready type sites but one of them mentions August 27 as being the date when Jupiter first enters into the area of the constellation Virgo. Other places mention 444 days as the entire duration of Jupiter's travel through the virgin constellation. It's tough to find the data that I'm looking for so I downloaded the Stellarium program. I've previously measured the days in between what I think is the AofD and a solar/lunar eclipse 1290 days latter which I think are the ones Jesus is talking about in the Olivet. I noticed that 1335 divided into thirds is 445.

I don't think that there's going to be enough time for a seven year tribulation, a rebuilt temple or a rapture prior to the Appointed time of the end. I'm afraid that trumpet number one, the first, could fall at any time.

http://www.rapturewatch.net/2017-watch :

All the qualifiers are there from September 23-25, 2017 for this sign, which comes 1,260 days after the first tetrad of April 15, 2014. However, the woman must give birth and Jupiter remains in the womb a few more weeks when it will then emerge. On November 13, 2017, Jupiter emerges and is joined in conjunction with Venus. This day also comes 444 days after their previous conjunction on August 27, 2016 that marks Jupiter’s entry into Virgo.



convocation-jpg.181419


"But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness,


The Eagle has landed.

ViewOfEarthFromMoon_zpsjnposrz1.jpg
 
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Luke17:37

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I don't believe that interpretation takes into account the meanings of the words as I have mentioned in my 2 previous posts.
It is interesting to compare Matthew 24:37-41 with Matthew 25:1-13 because both refer to the coming of the Son of man. Who was taken in and who was left outside?

The context is not comparable. Matthew 24 is talking about the wicked being taken/destroyed as they were in the flood, and Matthew 25 is talking about the wicked (apostates) being left out of God's kingdom.
 
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ken777

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The context is not comparable. Matthew 24 is talking about the wicked being taken/destroyed as they were in the flood, and Matthew 25 is talking about the wicked (apostates) being left out of God's kingdom.
If you consult a lexicon, such as this one, you will see that you cannot make "taken" (paralambano) mean destroyed.

Matthew 24:37 and Matthew 25:13 both refer to the coming of the Son of man.
 
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Luke17:37

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If you consult a lexicon, such as this one, you will see that you cannot make "taken" (paralambano) mean destroyed.

Matthew 24:37 and Matthew 25:13 both refer to the coming of the Son of man.

I disagree. I think you perhaps depend too much on lexicons.

Matthew 24:38
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

In this context, Taken = Destroyed.

Lexicons are written by men. This is the Word of God.
 
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ken777

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I disagree. I think you perhaps depend too much on lexicons.

Matthew 24:38
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

In this context, Taken = Destroyed.

Lexicons are written by men. This is the Word of God.

We cannot just make up meanings for words to suit our preferred interpretation. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and I know it was translated by men who used lexicons to determine the range of meaning of Biblical words

What you can say is that "took" ("airo" Matthew 24:39) and "destroyed" ("apollymi" Luke 17:27) share a common meaning in this context.

What you cannot say is that "taken" ("paralambano" Matthew 24:40) means "destroyed". Nor can you say that "left" ("aphiemi" Matthew 24:40) means "saved".

It is worth remembering that both Noah & Lot were taken out of harm's way by divine intervention - those "left" were destroyed. The ark was lifted up above the earth (Genesis 7:17) and Lot was physically taken out of Sodom (Genesis 19:16-17).
 
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ken777

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Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 .... the Lord's evidence

Both describe Israel in the Middle East during the coming time of Jacob's trouble in the tribulation period

This should be enough for you

There are many other appending scriptures that attest to the same

So I assume you do not give any credence to the interpretation of Matthew 24 that is based on the 3 questions the disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 24:3.

From my reading of Mat 24 I understand that Jesus was giving His followers information about what would happen in Jerusalem as well as in the whole world
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (v.14)
 
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ken777

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Don't you guys think though that every generation has had trials, famines, wars, etc, with people then claiming the end times had to be near?
Sure, you are right. The difference now is that certain key events have been fulfilled such as the restoration of Israel (Luke 21:24) and the development of atomic weapons that can destroy the earth. WW1 & WW11 are unprecedented in world history. Some argue that the frequency, intensity, and death toll from natural disasters are increasing.
 
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ken777

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This is not a random space object that breaks up in Earth's atmosphere and falls haphazardly on the planet. This is from God so it will be directed at wicked places and wicked individuals. Two guys are sleeping in a condo, one on the 30th floor, one on the 4th floor. A burning fragment finds it's target. The man on the 4th floor's life is "taken", while our 30th floor guy is "left" to continue through the tribulation. Two women grinding together, the wicked one is "taken" while the dear saint working next to her is "left" unharmed. The dead will be too numerous to be buried by the survivors so the vultures will have their work cut out for them. The fourth seal will have been opened.
We can imagine a wide variety of scenarios but they need to be examined to see if they stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.

Do you think the lexical meanings of the words "taken" (paralambano) and "left" (aphiemi) can be construed to support your interpretation?

Do you see a reference to the eagle in Job 39:30 in Jesus' comment in Luke 17:37?

Do you agree that the three mentions of eagles (aetos) in Revelation refer to godly subjects (Revelation 4:7, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 8:13 NRSV)?

Do you think Jesus' listeners would have been aware of Isaiah 40:31?

Do you think Jesus' disciples would have gained an understanding of John 6:53 by the time He spoke the words in Luke 17:37?

Using the lexical meanings of "taken" & "left", who do you think was "taken" in Matthew 25:1-13?
 
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