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2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by FreeGrace2, Aug 21, 2018.

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  1. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Testimony. If Christ has cleansed us, made us Holy, pure, redeemed, how then can the mind of man still condemn us as lost, polluted and without hope?

    Because for them this has not happened though they claim to know Him they refuse to cleanse the inside of the bowl, but rather want merely the exterior faith, and not even the moral behaviour. And it shows because lack of emotional clarity, denial of the need to be purified, or live life from the heart, and love is an alien reality, because love springs from the heart which is compromised and blocked off. Repentance and cleansing is their only hope.

    But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
    16> keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    17> It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
    1 Peter 3:15-17

    Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
    Make room for us in your hearts.
    2 Corinthians 7:1-2

    But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
    John 3:21

    How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
    Heb 9:14

    It is obvious if you believe you can keep an impure corrupted heart with all the carnal passions of the world and still walk with God, you do not know Him.

    Paul talks about two types of people. Those driven by worldly passions and those driven by the Holy Spirit. And you get driven by the Holy Spirit because He dwells within your heart and has worked through and resolved the worldly passions that destroy ones life through sin.

    Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
    Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
    You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
    Col 3:5-7

    Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
    Col 3:12

    How can this be? Because with an open heart we know through the cross we are loved, we are forgiven, we are resolved. The emotions that rage have lost their power and can be seen as what they are, just emotions, which have a place in Gods order but are not needed to establish who we are, but rather can reflect the glory of God.

    Paul expresses it like this
    To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.
    Col 1:29
     
  2. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    So strange. You are not your heart.
    If you are not your heart, what are you? Just the husk without a middle, chaff to be blown away without a core?

    On judgement day it is the heart of man that will be judged.
    What do people say? God sees the heart though our actions might appear wrong or missguided, it is the heart that matters.

    But for you, you have denied even your hearts.
    Dear Lord, may you open up these mens hearts to your word, and encourage them to humble themselves and open up to you, in repentance and faith, so they can be cleansed, purified and transformed through your Holy Spirit, in Jesus Christs name, Amen.
     
  3. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Man is a simple creature. A heart, from which all our actions spring.
    Jesus said this about the heart

    For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
    All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'
    Mark 7:21-23

    For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
    The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
    Matt 12:34-35

    In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
    Matt 23:28

    You hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
    Matt 23:25-26

    Repentance and becoming the temple of the Holy Spirit is becoming Holy, being pure and blameless in everything we do.

    The struggle is always the passions of the day, thoughts, feelings, which need dealing with and knowing their source alongside walking in love, turning our face to God and following His ways. It is a daily choice, carrying the cross of love, of accepting pain and suffering because we are loved, His people, called by His name, to His glory, Amen.
     
  4. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    So according to your theology, a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?



    JLB
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    It seems you have conflated things. Christ has cleansed the believer.

    The 'mind of man' is able to realize his lost state when under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    OK, now explain what Peter means here.

    Clearlly about fellowship.

    Can a believer bear fruit if out of fellowship with the Lord because of grieving or quenching the Spirit?

    OK, now explain what John means here.

    OK, explain the meaning.

    I've never said any such thing. In fact, anyone who does believe this is really out of their mind. Why in the world would you think that I believe such garbage?

    In order to "walk with God" one MUST BE IN FELLOWSHIP with God. Do you still not understand this? Those believers who grieve or quench the Spirit are NOT walking with God.

    OK, thanks for revealing that you have no clue as to how to be "driven by the Spirit".

    Just because the Holy Spirit indwells the believer doesn't mean He is driving. Not even close.

    But again, you cannot give ANY specifics about HOW to be driven by Him. You seem to think it's automatic or something.

    Well, since Paul was clear in his command to believers to stop grieving and stop quenching the Spirit, it is obvious that there are specific things the believer needs to understand. Which you do not, obviously.

    OK, now explain HOW one does this.

    OK, what are the specifics on how to do this?

    Do you even understand what he was saying here?

    Again, what are the biblical SPECIFICS of how to "struggle with all His energy"?

    Do you even know?
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said this:
    "Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, per John 4:42 and 1 John 4:14. He came to save people. Aren't you aware of that?"
    Where in the world does all this come from? None of this has anything to do with what I said. So why did you say all this silliness?

    But to answer your question as to who I am, I am a human being, with a body, soul and human spirit. Do you understand any of this?

    OK, please explain specifically what the 'heart' is.

    Who cares what people say?

    Are you kidding? God already KNOWS everything about our heart. He surely doesn't need to see our actions in order to know our heart. Which is part of James' point in James 2.

    Well, Mr clairvoyant, please explain how you know that.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Since you seem to love to twist Scripture so much, here is a hint. The words "remaining" and "abiding" are not identical.

    The Bible says such a hater doesn't have eternal life abiding in him. You've tried to twist the meaning to say such a hater doesn't have eternal life in him.

    If that's what John meant, he wouldn't have needed to use the word "abiding". But he did, and you just don't like what that means.

    The word was used by Jesus to indicate reciprocal relationship, otherwise known as FELLOWSHIP. But never mind the facts. Since you don't anyway.

    Every believer who hates a fellow believer is NOT in fellowship with the Lord. They are grieving or quenching the Spirit. And cannot bear fruit.
     
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Is that a yes or no?


    So according to your theology, a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?


    • Yes, a brother who hates his brother still has eternal life remaining or abiding in him.

    • No, a brother who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life remaining or abiding in him.





    JLB
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Too bad you're having such difficulty with plain language.

    Hateful believers do NOT have eternal life abiding (not "remaining") in them.

    But, since Jesus was extremely clear that believers possess eternal life from the MOMENT they believe, and shall never perish, it is obvious that even hating believers shall never perish.

    Because they were given the gift of eternal life, and therefore, shall never perish.

    Why do you still not believe what Jesus said in John 10:28? It's clear enough.
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Plain language ?


    You have avoided this question now for the entire life of this thread.


    A simple plain answer is all I ask.




    If it’s so clear then why not just answer my question?


    So according to your theology, a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?


    • Yes, a brother who hates his brother still has eternal life remaining or abiding in him.

    • No, a brother who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life remaining or abiding in him.


    My answer is clear!



    No! A brother who hates his brother no longer has eternal life abiding in him.


    Here is my scripture to validate my answer:


    Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



    Don’t be ashamed of your “doctrine”, just answer truthfully, what you believe.



    JLB
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said:
    "Too bad you're having such difficulty with plain language.

    Hateful believers do NOT have eternal life abiding (not "remaining") in them.

    But, since Jesus was extremely clear that believers possess eternal life from the MOMENT they believe, and shall never perish, it is obvious that even hating believers shall never perish.

    Because they were given the gift of eternal life, and therefore, shall never perish.

    Why do you still not believe what Jesus said in John 10:28? It's clear enough."
    Are these 2 words not clear to you?

    Rather, I've answered your question and explained what John meant. Which you have consistently rejected and continue to hold a view of this verse that directly contradicts and opposes what Jesus said in John 10:28.

    It seems plain language isn't so simple for you to comprehend.

    I did. Clearly. But you've already demonstrated that plain language is too difficult for you to comprehend.

    OK, one more time.

    Once a believer is given eternal life, they shall never perish.

    Jesus used plain language when He said that in John 10:28.

    The real question is why you are so hard over on opposing the plain language and message of the Savior?

    How can anyone who directly opposes what Jesus says even have eternal life in them?
     
  12. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Hi Free,

    "silliness"? When I talk to anyone, people know when you say what does your heart tell you? Or where is your heart? Or if you remove all the things you want others to believe you are what are you in your heart?

    The word heart is a word that represents the real person, the base of all motivation, choices and decisions. Another way is saying when you make a decision, it is your heart or will that begins the process.

    In scripture often the spirit of a person is used to mean their heart.

    For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
    1 Cor 2:11

    And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
    Romans 8:27

    May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
    1 Thess 3:13

    May the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance.
    2 Thess 3:5

    My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    Col 2:2-3

    Now if Paul talks about believers hearts, literally, that they might be blameless and holy, it is strange that you claim to follow God yet do not know you have a heart and that it needs to be clean and holy.
     
  13. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Cognitive disonance - is a leap of logic over an issue that undermines the logic itself.

    Ofcourse once you do this, you do not see it, it is like a blindness.

    So we are born sinners, separated from God, out of control and directed by our passions.
    We come to Christ, have faith, but some want to believe that is where it stops. Repentance, transformation, walking in the Holy Spirit suggests something more profound. We are changed, enabled to be holy, blameless, loving, flowing, rejoicing.

    If one believes we are doomed to sin, unable to be cleansed or walk in purity and holiness, it is impossible to even accept these words. But if you read Paul, Peter, and John they expect this as the fruit of the Holy Spirit. But to see this in reality, one has to actually grasp we are sinners because our hearts focus on the wrong things, is balanced in the wrong way, which in Christ and the cross can be put right.

    This point is profound. Because if this is the gospel, is the hope of Jesus, to not proceed down this road is to rebel against the very gift Christ has given us.

    What persuades me is Pauls encouragement and the words he used to describe the disciples and our walk

    But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
    Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
    For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
    Ephesians 5:3-5

    We cannot literally be immoral, impure or greedy. Not even a hint of sexual immorality.
    So for me our walk is obvious, righteous walking in the Holy Spirit.

    No surprise those who oppose such a thing do not have clean hearts and believe all humans are forever trapped in sin. There only way to exclude scripture is to believe Paul was saying God only sees as a pure, moral and not greedy because He only sees Jesus and not us. But then only Jesus is saved and we are lost.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Good. I'm glad to know you understand what the Bible means by 'heart'.

    And from your description above, I'm also glad you left the emotions out of it, because choices and decisions are thought processes, not emotions. Of course emotions may be involved, but it's the thoughts that count. Not the emotions.

    But do you believe these words of Paul? He's talking about "complete understanding", not fuzzy emotions and feelings.

    What is strange is your persistent nonsense and silliness in charging me with "not knowing that I have a heart and that it needs to be clean and holy".

    Anyone who has been using their brain, instead of their emotions, understands that I fully know that my heart, like everyone else's heart, need to be clean and holy.

    But you still have dodged the question of how a believer gets cleansed and becomes holy.

    I know full well how, but I am asking (as has Gr8Grace) you to explain how it's done, in order to determine your biblical knowledge.

    And all you've done is come back with generalities and vagueness.

    You talk about being clean and holy, yet you apparently have no understanding of HOW to accomplish that.

    It isn't automatic, so if you don't understand HOW to do it, why should anyone else assume that you have been doing it?
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Did you really NOT read what Paul wrote?? Good grief! At least read the verses before making such an error.

    Of course we CAN "literally be immoral, impure or greedy". That was exactly Paul's point.

    v.3 - 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

    Paul clearly didn't say that we "cannot literally be...". He said there must not be (should not be) any hint of these things.

    Now notice v.4 - Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

    Do the red words say we CANNOT do these things? No, it says we shouldn't do them.

    What you continue to fail to realize is that our walk is obvious, whether we are filled with the Spirit (in fellowship), or we are grieving or quenching the Spirit (out of fellowship).

    So far, I don't recall that you've even addressed the issue of believers grieving or quenching the Spirit.

    So, do you understand what that is?

    Do you believe that a believer achieves sinless perfection (no more sin) during this life?
     
  16. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    Hi Grace, I have not dodged the question.
    It is through repentance and obedience that we gain cleansing and holiness.
    Cleansing comes through faith in the cross and letting God work in our hearts.
    Through choice and obedience we change and become the fulfilment of the promise.

    The area of debate has always been how this works. My experience is as we are changed and walk in love, issues and causes change. As Paul would say, we have not arrived but we press on towards the goal.

    Paul describes at length behaviour we are to stop and behaviour we are to embrace.
    But this is about a changed heart driven by love, because without the right motivation and understanding, all efforts easily end in conflict and disappointment.

    To ignore our hearts, forgiveness we refuse to give, sins we refuse to resolve, bitterness and anger we want to cling on to, often lead us to a place of failure. It is why I have come across too many who hide their sin in the concept sin is not there to be resolved, but just accepted, because it is why we need Jesus.

    This language misses who Jesus is and who we are. We dwell in Jesus, His power and Spirit works through us, our will is embedded in His word and will. When believers begin to grasp we are in the vine, part of the body, which gains life through Him, then things become clearer.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Where are the verses that say so? In fact, your statement is flat wrong.

    Just more generalities and vagueness. And I'm not talking about forensic cleansing, but the day to day cleansing that every believer needs due to sin.

    But you've already shown a total failure of understanding of that.

    So, your choices, which come from your will power, gets the job done, huh? Again, where are the verses that support your theories?

    There is no debate on Gr8Grace's and my view. It's crystal clear and we HAVE verses that specifically explain how all this works.

    Just more generalities and vagueness. Because you don't have any specifics. Or verses.

    This is true but doesn't get you off the hook or defend your generalities.

    Do you know WHY we never "arrive"? Because of our sin nature.

    Both Gr8Grace and I have already given you huge hints about that, but you still don't provide any Scripture to back up your theories.

    Nope. We are NOT driven by love. We are driven (motivated) by knowledge.

    Acts 18:24 - Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.

    Rom 10:2 - For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. iow, only emotions, no knowledge.

    Rom 11:33 - Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom andknowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

    Rom 15:14 - I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

    1 Cor 12:8 - To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

    1 Cor 14:6 - Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

    2 Cor 2:14 - But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ’s triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.

    2 Cor 4:6 - For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

    2 Cor 8:7 - But since you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in the love we have kindled in you —see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

    Eph 4:13 - until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. iow, becoming spiritually mature requires knowledge!

    Phil 1:9 - And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, iow, love requires knowledge.

    Col 1:9,10 - 9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, iow, we grow spiritually through knowledge of God.

    Col 2:3 - in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Col 3:10 - and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

    1 Tim 2:4 - who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    2 Tim 2:25 - Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

    Titus 1:1,2 - 1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, iow, again, it's knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness.

    2 Pet 1:2,3,5,6,8 - 2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Pet 3:18 - But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

    Explain how to resolve sin. Specifically, and quote Scripture.

    I'm not talking to those "too many". I'm asking YOU to explain how to "resolve" sin. Specifically.

    What "language"?

    [QUTOE] We dwell in Jesus, His power and Spirit works through us, our will is embedded in His word and will.[/QUOTE]
    Except there are no verses that support this stuff. In fact, we DO NOT dwell in Jesus. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells us. You've got it backwards.

    And, explain specifically HOW the Spirit "works through us", if you can. And use Scripture to support your explanation.

    This is extremely vague and generalized.

    But at least you seem to admit that knowledge is required, by your words "to grasp". That means to understand, or know.
     
  18. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Abide means remain.


    Thank you for proving that OSAS is false.

    Believers who hate no longer have eternal life.

    Since it is your claim that believers have eternal life when they believe.





    JLB
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  19. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    This is the essence of the problem.
    Sin is behaviour that harms, destroys, leads to death.
    It is codified in the law, which shows the point at which intention, thoughts etc stray into sin and destruction. So one is not a sinner if you do not commit sin.

    This is a high level view of the issue of mankind and God.
    Repentance is the acceptance of ones sinfulness, sorrow over the sin that has been commited and a desire to walk righteously.

    This concept was embedded in the prophets and judgements on civilisations and communities. Ezek 18:26-27 and Jonah 3:4

    Obedience and righteousness blessing, disobedience and sin, death.
    Jesus becomes the fulfilment of the temple and sacrifices for sin and getting right with God, so that animal payment for sins committed is no longer required if one has faith in the cross. The faith given in Jesus is part of repentance, as well as obedience to walking in love.

    Paul shows that through Jesus we walk in love which fulfils the law, so are now free from condemnation, as no longer law breakers.

    This is the important step. Does Jesus resolve all the sinful aspects of man, or is it still we are cast aside, though in grace God picks us up.

    Some believe sexual desire is Adams original sin curse, though this suggests that sexual union and desire is innately sinful. This then becomes the final barrier to be removed at the resurrection.
     
  20. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    As an aside, summaries can be both wrong and right, ie expressing certain aspects of a situation, but not everything. Unless you can begin to accept all descriptions are but summaries, one ends up continually dividing and refining the points until one stands alone, with ones own personal interpretations.

    So if my statement is flat wrong, then faith is pointless, and repentance and obedience have no value, which is certainly the position of some, but they are not believers.
     
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