2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

You've got it backwards.

I think I understand Jesus's frustration with the disciples and with the pharisees.
If you meet Jesus and ask Him a question, it is the same as asking the Father. You are not literally asking the Father, because you are speaking to the son, but the response and outlook are the same, their heart, intentions, ideas, mind are the same and the will or desires are identical.

So our communion in Jesus results in our love and heart are His love and heart. It is not that we are now perfect and our desires are Gods desires, but God indwelling us through the Holy Spirit, being cleansed and purified, with love flowing from us we express who and what God is.

This is why Jesus said some remarkable things about His people.
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"
Matt 16:19

Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
Matt 18:18

These are remarkable words which we often do not see done or expressed. It is the fulfilment of our communion in Christ. Rarely do we agree with one another at this level, and certainly in terms of our walk and our victory, even the level of such a thing is hard to find agreement. But these words express Jesus's intent if we can but walk in it and grasp it, the will of the Father will be expressed through us, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Abide means remain.

Prove it. All your other opinions have been shown to be false.

Thank you for proving that OSAS is false.

So John 10:28 proves that? You are delirious.

Believers who hate no longer have eternal life.

When would believers receive eternal life? I know you don't know that.

Further, if that is really what John meant, he wouldn't have needed or used the word "abiding". The sentence would be quite clear without that word.

Since it is your claim that believers have eternal life when they believe.

So, go ahead and show me from Scripture WHEN a believer receives eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Where are the verses that say so? In fact, your statement is flat wrong."

This is the essence of the problem.

Yes, it is. You don't have any verses that support all your claims.

Sin is behaviour that harms, destroys, leads to death.

Actually, all humans are born spiritually dead already. No one dies spiritually by committing sins. Read Romans 5 for details.

So one is not a sinner if you do not commit sin.

Too late. Everyone IS a sinner. Even just 1 sin makes a person a sinner.

Rom 3:9-11, 20.

Paul shows that through Jesus we walk in love which fulfils the law, so are now free from condemnation, as no longer law breakers.

Looking for biblical evidence.............. Hm. None. No, Paul taught that one is saved (justified) by faith in Christ. I recommend you read Romans 3 and 4.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if my statement is flat wrong, then faith is pointless

How in the world can you come up with this?

Faith is the ONLY WAY to be saved. What is pointless is your view of emotions.

 

[JLB777]

Prove it. All your other opinions have been shown to be false.

You have never proven anything except that you promote false doctrine.


The word abide means remain.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Strings 3306 - Abide

1. to remain, abide
   
   1. in reference to place
      
      1. to sojourn, tarry
         
         
      2. not to depart
         
         1. to continue to be present
            
            
         2. to be held, kept, continually
            
   2. in reference to time
      
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
         
         1. of persons, to survive, live
            
   3. in reference to state or condition
      
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
         
2. to wait for, await one
   

 

[JLB777]

Prove it. All your other opinions have been shown to be false.


So John 10:28 proves that? You are delirious.


When would believers receive eternal life? I know you don't know that.

Further, if that is really what John meant, he wouldn't have needed or used the word "abiding". The sentence would be quite clear without that word.


So, go ahead and show me from Scripture WHEN a believer receives eternal life.

It’s too late.

You have already admitted that believers who hate do not have eternal life in them.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have never proven anything except that you promote false doctrine.

Just a broken record. I've proved your false doctrine every time I've responded to any of your posts.

The word abide means remain.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Strings 3306 - Abide

1. to remain, abide
   1. in reference to place
      1. to sojourn, tarry
         
         
      2. not to depart
         1. to continue to be present
            
            
         2. to be held, kept, continually
   2. in reference to time
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
         1. of persons, to survive, live
   3. in reference to state or condition
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
2. to wait for, await one

We all know how John used that word. From John 15, we see the word referred to reciprocal relationship.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Again, reciprocal relationship. That's fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s too late.

You have already admitted that believers who hate do not have eternal life in them.


JLB

Please at least read my posts before making such gross errors as you have done here.

If I have done what you are claiming, then cite the post # at least, so everyone will know that what you claim here is true.

If you don't cite any post #, everyone will just be reminded of how much of what you claim is false.

 

[JLB777]

Just a broken record. I've proved your false doctrine every time I've responded to any of your posts.

We all know how John used that word. From John 15, we see the word referred to reciprocal relationship.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Again, reciprocal relationship. That's fellowship.

Those who choose to see and embrace the truth, know that believers, Christian’s who hate their brothers, no longer have eternal life.


It’s very simple.


No amount of twisting will change that truth.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those who choose to see and embrace the truth, know that believers, Christian’s who hate their brothers, no longer have eternal life.

Jesus prevents such garbage. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. But for some very strange reason, you don't believe that. Why?

In post #922 I said this:
"So, go ahead and show me from Scripture WHEN a believer receives eternal life."

Are you going to do this, or just dodge again, which is your habit?

 

[LightLoveHope]

How in the world can you come up with this?

Faith is the ONLY WAY to be saved. What is pointless is your view of emotions.

Hi Free,

If you think that walking with Jesus is a contract drawn up by the angels, and you sign on the bottom line, you have problems.

Your heart is everything. I am just amazed you do not know this.
This conversation illustrates what I have discovered about how our minds come to conclusions. When we are held strongly by emotional pain and hurt, all the ideas that might break in are undermined and disabled. It is a kind of self deception for emotional survival. And you know this is occurring because emotions are just that odd random feeling far off and nothing seems to stir us or upset how we are living.

This is why real sinners who let their emotions out and follow them can be more real and true than up tight, repressed and controlled people who want to prove something, will actually losing it all.

In a strange kind of way we need to lose everything to gain eternal life.
If such a thing was easy, the church would be full of loving open sharing people, but unfortunately, life and death are the most impossible issues we have to face.

God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

If you think that walking with Jesus is a contract drawn up by the angels, and you sign on the bottom line, you have problems.

No, of course not. That's just stupid. Walking with Jesus means to be IN fellowship with Jesus. And you still have not provided ANY verses about how to do that.

So, how do you walk with Jesus. Specifically, and with verses.

Your heart is everything.

And you realize that one's "heart" is their very conscienceness. Where one thinks. Not where one emotes.

I am just amazed you do not know this.

I am just amazed that you think that I do not know this.

This conversation illustrates what I have discovered about how our minds come to conclusions. When we are held strongly by emotional pain and hurt, all the ideas that might break in are undermined and disabled. It is a kind of self deception for emotional survival.

Yes, this is the problem of emotions. No thought.

In a strange kind of way we need to lose everything to gain eternal life.

What did you lose in order to gain eternal life?

 

[LightLoveHope]

And you realize that one's "heart" is their very conscienceness. Where one thinks. Not where one emotes.

This is a very interesting point you are making. Years ago I would have agreed with you, because there was a separation in my perception as to where I was allowing feelings to effect my perspective and where I thought through ideas. These two things appeared separate.

What I am going to suggest is this is an illusion, created to keep oneself stable. Emotions are who we are. The more unstable or insecure we are, the more we close down, block out, simplify our feelings, put them in a straight jacket, so we can think. To operate as an adult in a complex world we have to do this, simply to cope. It creates the illusion we are the "facts" dominating this emotional chaos, so bringing order into our lives.

The truth is Jesus never intended us to stay like this. "Abba Father", His answering our deepest needs is an emotional and factual reality. He came to walk with us, to be our friends, to be our Saviour, to free us to be real. When Mary anointed Jesus and washed His feet with her tears and dried them with her hair, this was a thank you, emotional, heartfelt offering of praise to the King.

To let love rule within, the ability to think and feel together is our inheritence.
A phrase is often used by people, a dead church or an alive church.
And these phrases are normally linked to the love and sensitivity of the believers they meet. Almost everything we do, we say, I got something out of that, there is a feeling which summarises a good experience or something we do not want to repeat.

In the cross and in Jesus, the life He offers is life in the full, open, honest and true, the same on the inside and the outside. I have not yet met someone who would not aspire to having this. Except for those who have secrets or fears they do not want anyone else to know or that they themselves live in denial about. Jesus put it like this

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God
John 3:19-21

This light is the light of life, given so that we might be people of the light.

 

[JLB777]

Just a broken record. I've proved your false doctrine every time I've responded to any of your posts.

We all know how John used that word. From John 15, we see the word referred to reciprocal relationship.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Again, reciprocal relationship. That's fellowship.

The verse says those who abide, remain connected to Him as a branch remains connected to the vine, are the ones who produce fruit.


Here is how the Bible teaches us that we are to abide in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Verse 24 is the context of verse 15 -


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



It seems you are having a difficult time connecting the idea of obeying God, is how we show in truth that we love Him.


Obeying His commandment to love our neighbor is how we demonstrate our love for God.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
1 John 4:20-21

• And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

It’s easy to see that if a person steals or murders or commits adultery with his neighbors wife, that he is not loving his brother, but rather he is demonstrating hate towards his neighbor.



Your “doctrine” falsely teaches that we can hate our neighbor, and still expect to have the eternal life of God dwelling and remaining in us.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"And you realize that one's "heart" is their very conscienceness. Where one thinks. Not where one emotes."

This is a very interesting point you are making. Years ago I would have agreed with you, because there was a separation in my perception as to where I was allowing feelings to effect my perspective and where I thought through ideas. These two things appeared separate.

Your ideas were correct years ago. What you fail to accept is that emotions (feelings) are not thoughts. There is no objectivity in emotions, which makes them dangerous and untrustworthy.

What I am going to suggest is this is an illusion, created to keep oneself stable. Emotions are who we are.

Couldn't be more wrong. As I've shown all along. The illusion is what you now think.

Again, facts are objective, emotions are subjective. Huge difference.

This light is the light of life, given so that we might be people of the light.

This is objective truth, not subjective feelings.

Until you get that right, you're just way off kilter.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The verse says those who abide, remain connected to Him as a branch remains connected to the vine, are the ones who produce fruit.

It surely does say that. But you don't understand what it means.

Here is how the Bible teaches us that we are to abide in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Again, it surely does say that. The ONLY WAY to abide in Jesus is to keep His commandments, but you have perverted that into meaning that the only way to stay saved is to (magically) stay saved by your own efforts, which is utter nonsense.

Verse 24 is the context of verse 15 -
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Since "abiding" is about reciprocal relationship (fellowship), you are under a very false and misleading and misunderstanding of v.15.

It seems you are having a difficult time connecting the idea of obeying God, is how we show in truth that we love Him.

On the contrary, I fully agree with this. Only by obeying God and His commandments can we show that we love Him. Absolutely.

Obeying His commandment to love our neighbor is how we demonstrate our love for God.

Amen again.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
1 John 4:20-21

Amen again.

It’s easy to see that if a person steals or murders or commits adultery with his neighbors wife, that he is not loving his brother, but rather he is demonstrating hate towards his neighbor.

Very true.

Your “doctrine” falsely teaches that we can hate our neighbor, and still expect to have the eternal life of God dwelling and remaining in us.

The problem that you continue to demonstrate is your own hatred for what Jesus so very plainly taught:
1. that those who believe have eternal life (John 5:24, 6;47, 1 Jn 5:11, 13),
2. that He is the One who gives believers eternal life (John 10:28a),
3. that recipients of eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28b)

You have utterly failed to show otherwise. Because what Jesus SAID cannot be shown to be otherwise.

Since you're so hung up on 1 Jn 3:15 and hatred for fellow believers, please answer this question.

Can a believer who hates what Jesus taught have eternal life abiding in him?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Couldn't be more wrong. As I've shown all along. The illusion is what you now think.

Again, facts are objective, emotions are subjective. Huge difference.

My friend, this is where you are talking about facts, things outside yourself.
Facts also relate to who we are. Emotions tell us how we are reacting to the reality of life.
You and I are caught, like all living things, to be subjective about ourselves.

Thoughts are chains of ideas, which come and go. They are triggered and molded by our history, our biases, our likes and dislikes. They are also subservient to our emotions. It is why one fact can destroy our lives, blow it apart, because of the emotional impact it has.

Jesus has always been about building our emotional centre on Him, on the cross, on the life and love that flows from the Holy Spirit. It is embedded in the truth, because He is the truth, and the way and the Life. People burn themselves because the emotional meaning of their life is shot, depression holds them, despair drives them. They aspire to fulfilment by money, power, influence, sex yet it runs through their fingers because it is just emotion, the feeling that drives them. And death laughs at all their achievements while in the Lord we have life, eternity and true joy.

What is our strength?

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Philippians 4:4-6

Our emotions reflect the reality of Jesus living within us, His Holy Spirit communing with His people.

"Free" it is clear by your language, emotions are not your friend.
Sinners are so shut down extreme emotional situations are the only way often to get through to them. They watch murder thrillers, horror films to try and get some response, because they have shut so much off and it is so effective they wonder if they are actually alive. The brutality of some of this stuff is so bad I cannot watch it, it hurts too much.

For some grief is the first real emotion that breaks through, that kind of grounds them.
Jesus wants us to live as feeling loving people who are alive not zombies cut off from the life that is all around. One can have all the theology in the world by be empty and void within. That is not salvation or being born again.

 

[LightLoveHope]

A simple observation. If I make a promise to someone, how do they know I will keep it?
Because they know me.

But this knowledge is experiential, based on emotion and empathy.
If one has zero experience and zero empathy, you just have "facts". But these facts are often just words given in a certain context, promising a behaviour or action in the future.

In Jesus we know because His word has touched our hearts, and He has walked on this earth and changed peoples lives through His deeds that we can rely on Him, unto death.

Take a classic over defensive man, Thomas. "Unless I feel the wounds I will not believe."

What Thomas was saying was he did not trust or empathise well with his friends and he needed more. Jesus was so gracious. But this is all about trust, feelings and walking in love with an open heart. It is why the apostles were not educated men, just fishermen, because Jesus is about the whole of a person, not just their mind, but their heart, soul and strength.

So those who want security on this first step have no real clue about the Kingdom or its power. They are worried and anxious, and want pay back for the effort they have put in, but actual transformation and becoming someone different, no way. They sound convincing because they face mainly people just like themselves, but when they meet His people, it all goes south.

Praise the Lord , that He has made us overcomers, truth tellers, seekers of righteousness and love. God calls us Holy, pure, His ambassadors, so let us learn how to honour the King who gave us so much and believes in us so deeply, halleluyah, Amen

 

[FreeGrace2]

My friend, this is where you are talking about facts, things outside yourself.
Facts also relate to who we are.

Only biblical facts that explain who we are. Not any psycho-babble.

Emotions tell us how we are reacting to the reality of life.

And since emotions are subjective, and therefore PRONE to being in error, the only true indication of how we "react" comes from biblical facts.

You and I are caught, like all living things, to be subjective about ourselves.

But unlike yourself, I look into the mirror of Scripture to keep me in check.

Thoughts are chains of ideas, which come and go. They are triggered and molded by our history, our biases, our likes and dislikes. They are also subservient to our emotions.

This is where your whole view is derailed. It is the emotions that are subservient to our thoughts. And why it is so dangerous to live on or by emotions.

It is why one fact can destroy our lives, blow it apart, because of the emotional impact it has.

Only true for the emotionally unstable. Because of my sealed security in Christ (FACT), and knowledge of who I am as a child of God (FACT), there is no reason whatsoever for any fact to destroy my life.

Just look at the stability of Job, when Satan wiped out his family, wealth, and then health. Did he fall apart? No. Why not? Because He was firmly established in the truth of who God is.

Jesus has always been about building our emotional centre on Him

Nonsense. Where did you get that from, since it sure didn't come from the Bible?

What is our strength?

Knowledge of biblical truth (FACTS). Objectivity.

Our emotions reflect the reality of Jesus living within us, His Holy Spirit communing with His people.

No they don't. Our understanding of what Scripture SAYS (FACTS) is the reality of Jesus living in us.

"Free" it is clear by your language, emotions are not your friend.

Coming from an overly emotional, and therefore, unstable, viewpoint.

Sinners are so shut down extreme emotional situations are the only way often to get through to them.

Said the one with an overly emotional unstable viewpoint.

What gets the believer through tough situations is objectivity;
1. who God is
2. what God promises His children
3. the means to handle ANY SITUATION that comes our way

When a believer applies biblical principles (FACTS) to any situation, they are carried by those FACTS.

For some grief is the first real emotion that breaks through, that kind of grounds them.

Since when does grief ground anyone? That's usually when people totally fall apart.

Jesus wants us to live as feeling loving people who are alive not zombies cut off from the life that is all around. One can have all the theology in the world by be empty and void within. That is not salvation or being born again.

From this single paragraph, it is clear that you have absolutely no idea what salvation or being born again even is. How very sad. (oh, and that's an emotion!)

 

[FreeGrace2]

A simple observation. If I make a promise to someone, how do they know I will keep it?
Because they know me.

Still doesn't mean you'll keep your promise.

But this knowledge is experiential, based on emotion and empathy.

Yet you just said "because they know me". That is about FACTS, not emotions.

You are still trying to equate emotions and FACTS.

If one has zero experience and zero empathy, you just have "facts". But these facts are often just words given in a certain context, promising a behaviour or action in the future.

This is actually the point of Scripture. To believe what God said, based solely on what He has promised.

Trusting Him without all your "experiential" emotions.

In Jesus we know because His word has touched our hearts, and He has walked on this earth and changed peoples lives through His deeds that we can rely on Him, unto death.[/QUOTE]
Saving faith has nothing to do with anyone's emotional experience. Just a lot of psycho-babble that you share.

Take a classic over defensive man, Thomas. "Unless I feel the wounds I will not believe."

Seriously? He didn't say "feel" in the sense of emotions. He wanted FACTS, that Jesus' hands and side still bore the marks of the cross. No emotions at all.

What is somewhat frustrating or disappointing (are those qualifying emotions?) is that you never respond to any individual points that I make, relative to any of your comments.

Here I've corrected your comment about Thomas, but I'll never read a response from you regarding my correction of your error.

What Thomas was saying was he did not trust or empathise well with his friends and he needed more.

That had NOTHING to do with empathies. Give me a break. He wanted concrete FACTS. His faith was concrete. Experimental.

Jesus was so gracious.

And what did Jesus said about Thomas' believing after experiencing FACTS? He said those who believe without seeing or touching are blessed more than those who believe based on experience (FACTS).

Praise the Lord , that He has made us overcomers, truth tellers, seekers of righteousness and love. God calls us Holy, pure, His ambassadors, so let us learn how to honour the King who gave us so much and believes in us so deeply, halleluyah, Amen

I have learned how to honour the King. And both Gr8Grace and I have asked you numerous times to provide specifics on how to do this. And you have never done so, which leads us to believe that you don't know how to do this specifically.

All talk, no action.