2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

So in the Holy Spirit we are like Jesus.

The key is to be "in the Holy Spirit". That is not guaranteed nor automatic. Though the Holy Spirit indwells every believer, the believer MUST BE in fellowship with the Lord and the Holy Spirit in order to be filled (Eph 5:18) and walking by the Spirit (Gal 5:16).

However, believers are also commanded to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

Are you aware of all these commands? And do you understand HOW believers are filled and how believers grieve/quench the Spirit?

 

[FreeGrace2]

21.Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23. if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Col 1:21-23

Why did you bold the words above in v.23? What is your point about those words?

Do you understand the "then" part of the conditional statement? It's not about staying saved, as many assume.

The "then" part is found in v.22, though without the use of "then". But that's because the "if" occurs after the "then" statement.

So, let's put v.23 FIRST and v.22 SECOND to actually see the "if" and the "then".

23. if you continue in your faith, 22. he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--

iow, ONLY IF one continues in their faith will God be able "to present them holy in His sight".

Of course His will is to present EVERY BELIEVER holy in His sight. That's what pleases Him. Heb 11:6

So, to use both the "if" and "then" words to show the conditional statement,

"IF you continue in your faith, THEN God will present you holy in His sight".

 

[Gr8Grace]

"IF you continue in your faith, THEN God will present you holy in His sight".

It is interesting what "continuing in your faith" means to most believers today.....feelings,emotions,live a good life and never stop believing. And the moment a problem,some suffering or even prosperity comes along they become a train wreck and have to seek out solutions.

When continuing in your faith(His doctrines) is learning,understanding and applying His mind in our lives. The solutions are already there for us when the next problem arises.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is interesting what "continuing in your faith" means to most believers today.....feelings,emotions,live a good life and never stop believing. And the moment a problem,some suffering or even prosperity comes along they become a train wreck and have to seek out solutions.

When continuing in your faith(His doctrines) is learning,understanding and applying His mind in our lives. The solutions are already there for us when the next problem arises.

 

[LightLoveHope]

iow, ONLY IF one continues in their faith will God be able "to present them holy in His sight"

Hi Free,

I see both interpretations. And I would leave the grace part as always there. But there is a real warning here. It is like someone in a tornado. They are not in the shelter, and the wind may or may not grab them and destroy all they have. They could walk in, and get "safer", but they are staying on the outside.

Jesus is always about warnings. Warnings that life is not a clear cut decision. We must abide, we must dwell, we are vessels in communion, part of the whole, and never separate. At the start this seems so true, but as time goes by it dulls as the Lord builds great strength and truth into our lives.

This phrase stands out, "The reason I need God is because ...... " sin, weakness, failure or whatever.

The problem is not in the because, the problem is in saying the statement. We are in God, He is in us, and we are in Him. Love is dwelling, becoming part of, a communion were both play a part, and the whole is greater than the parts.

When we say "the reason I", we have already stood back from the Lord. But our hearts love, we are His creation, we pulsate with His Spirit, and desire to walk in His will. There is no separation, so we do not ask, because we have seen our communion with the Lord of Lords, our Saviour, our King, our Passion and our Desire.

I have seen something in praise. I know many praise the Lord with odd theology, seeing His Spirit move but with a distorted view of who they are and where they are headed, yet the praise is real and the communion a blessing. And the Lord blesses, really blesses, despite many will fall away, get distracted, because it is about the Lords grace despite our failures, His overwhelming love to all who come, no matter the future.

So Judas was always loved, and the door was always open, yet he chose to walk betrayal. This did not limit his experience of God and the miracles.

So people and communion. There is only communion, eternal, open, flowing. If one walks away, it is not as if there is something different to come back to. If the rebellion is complete, and the compromise closing the door, then destruction is the only outcome.
But if it is hurt, or defeat and turmoil, the door is always there, and the Lord will be ready for any prodigal who opens their hearts and comes to Him.

So this is where I stand, in communion, praising the Lord.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It is interesting what "continuing in your faith" means to most believers today.....feelings,emotions,live a good life and never stop believing. And the moment a problem,some suffering or even prosperity comes along they become a train wreck and have to seek out solutions.

When continuing in your faith(His doctrines) is learning,understanding and applying His mind in our lives. The solutions are already there for us when the next problem arises.

Hi Grace,

When faith is easy, people will say everything is about abiding.
You highlight a very important point. I lived a painful life growing up, and had to fight through lots of emotional and foundational issues to who I am.
I have lived most of my life by faith.

What I have also discovered is with an open heart and no defences there is nothing in this world that can shake us. And God will help us grow when we are shaken.

Without this background and grounding in life and Jesus, words, beliefs, doctrines take on different meanings. We can end up saying different words, with the same emotional meaning because we express the ideas from a different background and perspective.

It is why listening, spending time with people, hearing their love language, what has molded them, their passions, the thing they praise and the things they hate are as important as the way we share and its contents.

Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, because we are our enemies as well as those we see who oppose our words and sharing.

God bless you, Praise the Lord that He brought us victory through the cross, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

I see both interpretations.

And....there is your problem. Scripture doesn't include more than one understanding. So, it is clear that you are "seeing things" that aren't there.

And I would leave the grace part as always there. But there is a real warning here. It is like someone in a tornado. They are not in the shelter, and the wind may or may not grab them and destroy all they have. They could walk in, and get "safer", but they are staying on the outside.

Your comparisons do not work for me. I see no connection between a tornado and what Col 1:22-23 says.

So this is where I stand, in communion, praising the Lord.

I ask why you never addressed any of my points in post #881, nor answered the questions?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Are you aware of all these commands? And do you understand HOW believers are filled and how believers grieve/quench the Spirit?

To have a relationship, with free will, care and concern, it is always possible to grieve and quench that relationship. The point here is you say a person can walk away and still stay connected, I am saying as far as we can tell some never return or want to.

And....there is your problem. Scripture doesn't include more than one understanding. So, it is clear that you are "seeing things" that aren't there.

You obviously believe in definite definitions. But if an idea is a summary of more than one issue or relationship, then the definition will always compromise some aspects.

So there is a mystery. When can be united to the Lord yet know little theology, or be deep in ideas and theology and not know God at all. Some can walk righteously yet be just a front, while an addict, breaking free though weak, have lots of issues and yet know the power of Jesus flowing through them.

So I am just cautious, and be definitive about the best place is walking closely to Jesus. So you say I have a problem???? The truth is those who wonder away or want to stay in the world have a problem, and it is called unresolved sin. I just want to know Jesus and His people more.

So where is the issue? We must run deeper into Christ, to know the depth of His love, His overcoming, His victory, His joy, His heart, His desire, His will. It is only our resistance to change and not giving up sin and the hurts of the past that holds us back.

So here really lies the issue. Believers want a mission, and it often points at others, and the vision is to tell them how to get things right, rather than embracing Jesus more and letting Him change us still further. But without an open heart, this is never going to happen.

 

[JLB777]

May I introduce you to a bit of objective reality?

John 10:28 says those given eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. If you don't grasp that the 2 connected words "NEVER PERISH" IS eternal security, I cannot help you.


It is worse than delusional to describe what Jesus taught as "filth". You should immediately go to your bathroom and scrub out your mouth with soap.

The Scriptural validation is John 10:28. Your denial doesn't change anything.


This is laughable. John 10:28 clearly STATES that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5;11,13 all say that eternal life is possessed by whoever believes. Therefore, from the MOMENT one believes, they shall never perish.

Only an ignorant moron wouldn't see and understand this.

Or, someone who just hates what the Bible very plainly says.

But, take your pick. Moron, or hater.

LOL!!!!


880 posts and still no proof of 2 Thessalonians 2:12 mentioning eternal security.


that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12


ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH.


No mention of eternal security!



JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Hi Grace,

When faith is easy, people will say everything is about abiding.
You highlight a very important point. I lived a painful life growing up, and had to fight through lots of emotional and foundational issues to who I am.

All of us have had our struggles and painful experiences.

What I have also discovered is with an open heart and no defences there is nothing in this world that can shake us. And God will help us grow when we are shaken.

An open heart?~~Jer 17:9~~New American Standard Bible
"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

No defenses?~~ 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Without this background and grounding in life and Jesus, words, beliefs, doctrines take on different meanings.

This is exactly why we exclude experiences,feelings,emotions,preconceived ideas,likes,dislikes and our wicked hearts from forming our doctrines......we will come up with all kinds of false doctrines.

It is why listening, spending time with people, hearing their love language, what has molded them, their passions, the thing they praise and the things they hate are as important as the way we share and its contents.

I call this 'potluck' fellowship. Most conversation's start something like this," Now this isn't gossip,but...."

Jesus commanded us to love our enemies,

Which isn't an emotional, personal type of love Peter.

 

[Gr8Grace]

LOL!!!!


880 posts and still no proof of 2 Thessalonians 2:12 mentioning eternal security.


that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12


ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH.


No mention of eternal security!



JLB

Your not so subtle change is noted. And it really does show that you understand that it strikes at the heart of your false doctrine............Hence the change had to be made.

 

[LightLoveHope]

"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Jesus came to purify our hearts, to cleanse us, to empower us to live in purity.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
9> Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
Philippians 4:8-9

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9> Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10> Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
6> Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
7> You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
8> But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
Col 3:5-8

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13> Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:12-13

Jesus came to literally cleanse us and change our hearts.
"Grace" you appear to not have experienced this and believe your heart is unchangeable and forever lost. Unfortunately if for you this is true, how can love and the Holy Spirit dwell within you?

 

[JLB777]

Your not so subtle change is noted. And it really does show that you understand that it strikes at the heart of your false doctrine............Hence the change had to be made.

Still waiting for you guys to deal with the scripture I quoted.

Since you refuse to answer my question I will continue to show the OP has no relevance to eternal security.


Maybe you could answer this question that Freegrace chooses to ignore.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Can you explain how a brother who hates his brother still has eternal life, with scripture?


So much for your “eternal security”.


JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

Still waiting for you guys to deal with the scripture I quoted.

Since you refuse to answer my question I will continue to show the OP has no relevance to eternal security.


Maybe you could answer this question that Freegrace chooses to ignore.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Can you explain how a brother who hates his brother still has eternal life, with scripture?


So much for your “eternal security”.


JLB

Both of us have answered MANY times. And it's your total inability to understand the word "abiding." Or better yet, your knowing rejection of it.

 

[Gr8Grace]

how can love and the Holy Spirit dwell within you?

As a believer we should know this..............The Holy Spirit dwells in our new creation. Our regenerated human spirit.

Peter, it appears that you have not experienced this. And think that you can just sweep your old house clean.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Are you aware of all these commands? And do you understand HOW believers are filled and how believers grieve/quench the Spirit?"

To have a relationship, with free will, care and concern, it is always possible to grieve and quench that relationship. The point here is you say a person can walk away and still stay connected, I am saying as far as we can tell some never return or want to.

Of course some never return. But you failed to answer my question. Do you know HOW believers are filled with the Spirit, and HOW believers grieve/quench the Spirit?

By that, I mean specifically HOW. Please avoid generalities and vagueness.

You obviously believe in definite definitions.

If you don't, then words don't have any meaning, kinda like Bill Clinton thought. How do you get through life if there aren't "definite definitions"?

But if an idea is a summary of more than one issue or relationship, then the definition will always compromise some aspects.

With respect, hogwash.

So I am just cautious, and be definitive about the best place is walking closely to Jesus. So you say I have a problem????

I sure do. And now you've given me another one to add to your list of problems. You don't like or believe in "definite definitions". lol

The truth is those who wonder away or want to stay in the world have a problem, and it is called unresolved sin. I just want to know Jesus and His people more.

You simply don't know what God's plan for unresolved sin in the lives of believers is.

Heb 12:11 is His plan. Read it. And comprehend it.

So where is the issue? We must run deeper into Christ, to know the depth of His love, His overcoming, His victory, His joy, His heart, His desire, His will. It is only our resistance to change and not giving up sin and the hurts of the past that holds us back.

This all sounds great, but SPECIFICALLY, how does one do this; "run deeper".

 

[FreeGrace2]

LOL!!!!
880 posts and still no proof of 2 Thessalonians 2:12 mentioning eternal security.
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12
ALL MAY BE CONDEMNED WHO DO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH.
No mention of eternal security!

lol is right!

The point of 2 Thess 2:12 is that condemnation is for those who never believed. But you just don't want to meditate on the verse to really understand it.

But, I believe that in your heart, you really do understand what the verse implies, but you're just not going to admit it.

Condemnation is for those who never believed. Same message in John 3:18.

These 2 verses refute your nonsense about a believer who ceases to believe reverts back to an unbeliever.

Yet, you are totally unable to provide any verse that supports your theories.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus came to purify our hearts, to cleanse us, to empower us to live in purity.

Well, this is rather telling!

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, per John 4:42 and 1 John 4:14. He came to save people. Aren't you aware of that?

Why do you think His title is Savior of the world" if He didn't come to save us from the lake of fire?

Any verses that say He is the "purifier of the world", or "cleanser of the world", or any other title?

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
9> Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
Philippians 4:8-9

Great verse. But it in no way supports what you've posted here.

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9> Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10> Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

This is about fellowship. Which requires confession of sin.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
6> Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
7> You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
8> But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
Col 3:5-8

This is about HOW to live the spiritual life, meaning, to be filled with the Spirit.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13> Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:12-13

This is another passage about how to live the Christian life.

Jesus came to literally cleanse us and change our hearts.

I invite you to read John 4:42 and 1 John 4:14.

"Grace" you appear to not have experienced this and believe your heart is unchangeable and forever lost.

Is that right? And who told you all this? Do you hear voices in your head late at night? I think you are delusional if that is what you think.

Unfortunately if for you this is true, how can love and the Holy Spirit dwell within you?

Well, obviously none of this mush is true for me, not that you would know it. And obviously you seem to be ignorant of how the Holy Spirit dwells in people.

So, I'll enlighten you on the subject:

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

If you don't comprehend these 2 verses, please ask. I'm very eager to answer any questions regarding these 2 verses.

 

[Gr8Grace]

But, I believe that in your heart, you really do understand what the verse implies, but you're just not going to admit it.

Thats without question. Hence the change of the keyword in his emphasized 'quote' of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe you could answer this question that Freegrace chooses to ignore.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Can you explain how a brother who hates his brother still has eternal life, with scripture?

Such a phony. I've answered your question countless times.

The reason any believer "still has eternal life" is because those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish, per John 10:28. That's why.

iow, once given eternal life, which is given the MOMENT of faith in Christ, that person shall never perish.

The only way that is possible is if the gift is irrevocable, meaning, cannot be lost, forfeited, returned, misplaced, blah, blah, blah.

Question answered, once again.