2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

psycho-babble

You seem unable to comprehend meaning and how we summarise this by feelings.
One simple problem people have with God is their fathers and how they felt about them.
So much of everything we do is because of how our feelings steer us through different
behaviours. And the point I am coming to, is sin itself is because we are so messed up.

Why do people want that flash car, big house, lots of money? Because they believe it will
make them feel good. If you break the facts down, if you spend all the money you have
and have a rubbish experience, you have wasted your money. This is all literally about
feelings. Do people struggle, fight, win through to feel bad?
What is heaven? A place without sadness and suffering,

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Revelation 21:4

It sounds to me you have bought into Jesus and missed the whole point.

And you use the term psycho-babble like many defended people, who are just too scared to look within, because they do not like what they know and would rather just close the door.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Here I've corrected your comment about Thomas, but I'll never read a response from you regarding my correction of your error.

You are just skipping the point. Jesus provided more than enough facts, the problem was always peoples hearts and trust, there emotional defensiveness and hidden sin. It is why often the most intelligent people are the most chaotic, because emotions hijack our thoughts, and justify how we feel, when actually if we were not so bright, we would just accept we are feeling bad, or need to relax and not take things so seriously.

So your "correction" of my error, is no correction at all, but missing the point. We are emotional creatures from start to end. And we need love, openness and resolution which is the life Jesus is offering.

Jesus is overflowing with such ideas. He are the Father are one. He desires we are one, that our testimony is how we show love one to another. And our light is good works, bearing with one another and those in need. These are the facts, basic, real facts, but only possible with an open loving heart cleansed by the Living God, Amen, Thank you Jesus.

Listen to Jesus's criticism of the pharisees,

"You have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness."
Matt 23:23

Morality is very factual, something you can measure, rules and regulations to follow but without a heart with love it is just hypocracy and of no value. This is only possible with an open heart and humbly going to God and accepting the cross and the forgiveness Jesus provides.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"psycho-babble"

You seem unable to comprehend meaning and how we summarise this by feelings.

Again, wrong. One's feelings (emotions) do NOT THINK. Therefore, do NOT summarize. That's where you stay off the rails.

Do you understand what I mean by psycho-babble? The drivel that comes from secular psychology. That's what the majority of your posts sound like.

One simple problem people have with God is their fathers and how they felt about them.

OK, more psychology. Let's just stick with the Bible, ok?

So much of everything we do is because of how our feelings steer us through different behaviours. And the point I am coming to, is sin itself is because we are so messed up.

Please speak for only yourself. Thank you very much.

If our feelings are what "steer us", then yes, we are quite messed up. But my feelings don't steer me. God's word steers me, so I'm not messed up.

Why do people want that flash car, big house, lots of money? Because they believe it will make them feel good. If you break the facts down, if you spend all the money you have and have a rubbish experience, you have wasted your money. This is all literally about feelings. Do people struggle, fight, win through to feel bad?

None of this describes me.

What is heaven? A place without sadness and suffering

Is that all heaven is to you?

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Revelation 21:4

Amen.

It sounds to me you have bought into Jesus and missed the whole point.

That's where you are wrong again. Jesus IS the WHOLE POINT.

What other point is there? Just feeling good?

And you use the term psycho-babble like many defended people, who are just too scared to look within, because they do not like what they know and would rather just close the door.

Well, I'm not like "many defended (sic) people". I do understand exactly what it is and how others use it trying to make themselves sound professional or intelligent.

I am well grounded in reality because I am well grounded in Scripture, God's word.

You have shown that you are far more interested in your feelings and emotions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Here I've corrected your comment about Thomas, but I'll never read a response from you regarding my correction of your error."

You are just skipping the point.

Seems you are. And this is an obvious example. I corrected your comment about Thomas, and you deflect what I said. So, it is YOU who are skipping the point and issue.

Jesus provided more than enough facts, the problem was always peoples hearts and trust, there emotional defensiveness and hidden sin.

No, the Bible says the problem is sin. Which is why Jesus Christ came to earth, died for our sins. So that those who trust in Him (not an emotion) will be given eternal life and life with Him forever. That's the FACTS.

It is why often the most intelligent people are the most chaotic, because emotions hijack our thoughts, and justify how we feel, when actually if we were not so bright, we would just accept we are feeling bad, or need to relax and not take things so seriously.

That's been my point. Emotions DO hijack our thoughts. Which is why one should never trust their emotions/feelings.

So your "correction" of my error, is no correction at all, but missing the point.

No, you just keep missing the point. You tried to explain Thomas' doubting to his feelings. I explained specifically what he was looking for; experiential FACTS. Not emotions at all. So you are the one missing the point.

We are emotional creatures from start to end.

This is just so much psycho-babble. Where does the Bible say anything close to this? It doesn't.

The Bible indicates that we are intelligent creatures. Do you see the difference? Probably not, because you are so tied up in your own emotions.

Rom 2:15 - They (Gentiles) show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

And we need love, openness and resolution which is the life Jesus is offering.

I challenge you to come up with any verse that says this. He offers no such things.

Jesus is overflowing with such ideas. He are the Father are one. He desires we are one, that our testimony is how we show love one to another. And our light is good works, bearing with one another and those in need. These are the facts, basic, real facts, but only possible with an open loving heart cleansed by the Living God, Amen, Thank you Jesus.

OK, since these are facts, even real facts (as if there's any other kind, lol), can you show me from Scripture HOW our heart is cleansed by God?

Listen to Jesus's criticism of the pharisees,

"You have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness."
Matt 23:23

And these things aren't feelings or emotions.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Which is why one should never trust their emotions/feelings.

This is so extreme. If it like saying because an idea could be wrong or miss-understood we should never trust ideas. Once one begins to see we are totally subjective, we know that the answer is a set of hierarchies which we need to work down, to find the answer, which by faith is through Jesus.

It is how we find life, build upon the rock. Jesus was very aware of our hierarchies, often based upon the family, or powers of influence in the world. His first command is to put God above all.

It sounds like a weak thing to say this is not a fact but a position of faith, but for us this is true. I know in my life it is a fact, but until the Lord stands in front of man, he will always question its validity.

One important issue is how we feel about our behaviour and our successes and failures.
It is feelings about this that discourage many, make people feel worthless and unable to cope. An easy way out is just to dismiss the issue or feeling rather than begin to investigate and let the Lord bring His presence and His victory. Learning how we hurt others and hurt ourselves through sin, helps us see the right way to walk, and why. This is using emotions as a way of becoming sensitive to the will of God.

One example of someone who is disconnected with life is a lack of conscience or feeling any pain when they hurt another. It can be shown when things go wrong these kind of people easily become very dangerous. Society runs by these feelings and boundaries. It is also why when they do not work, sin becomes an alternative, as if we are not fragile and this is a walk to destruction and death.

As christians we often say without morality the world will decay, which is true, except it is the emotional framework which holds all societies together, so it is not an either or choice. What people are blind to is how sin corrupts the position, where almost all behaviour can be argued as acceptable, which is why the Lord warns us without Him as the reference point we will die.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Which is why one should never trust their emotions/feelings."

This is so extreme.

No, what is extreme is to trust your feelings/emotions. They are untrustworthy.

If it like saying because an idea could be wrong or miss-understood we should never trust ideas.

Not at all. Emotions and feelings LACK THOUGHT. That's the problem. All ideas ARE thoughts. So your attempt at comparison fails. Feelings and ideas are not comparable.

Once one begins to see we are totally subjective, we know that the answer is a set of hierarchies which we need to work down, to find the answer, which by faith is through Jesus.

You are contradicting your self. First, maybe you admit to being "totally subjective", but that is your problem. I am definitely NOT that. I don't lack subjectivity, but I know (thinking) that objectivity contains FACTS, whereas subjectivity doesn't.

Also, you ended up with "faith in Christ', which is objective, whether you recognize it or not.

It is how we find life, build upon the rock.

Through facts, not emotions.

This is using emotions as a way of becoming sensitive to the will of God.

This isn't about "becoming sensitive to the will of God". It's about KNOWING the will of God and obeying it. But since you have admitted to being "totally subjective", I don't expect you to grasp any of this.

 

[EmSw]

Through facts, not emotions.

Hmmm...isn't it a fact you don't believe anyone needs the cross to be saved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hmmm...isn't it a fact you don't believe anyone needs the cross to be saved?

What pure hogwash.

Only those who believe that Jesus Christ died for them personally ON A CROSS will be saved.

Where in the world to you get your extremely crazy ideas?

 

[EmSw]

What pure hogwash.

Only those who believe that Jesus Christ died for them personally ON A CROSS will be saved.

Where in the world to you get your extremely crazy ideas?

From your theology. Ever heard of Zane Hodges?

Besides, does John 6:47 say anything about the cross?

You see, as we noted previously, the facts surrounding the gospel message—such as the death and resurrection of Christ—are important facts for what they tell us about the reasons for trusting Christ. But believing these facts doesn’t save anyone. People are only saved when they believe that Jesus gives them eternal life the moment they believe in Him for that. [Zane C. Hodges, “How to Lead People to Christ, Pt.2,” Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society 14 (Spring 2001): 12.]

 

[FreeGrace2]

From your theology. Ever heard of Zane Hodges?

What would make you think I accept everything from anyone?

Besides, does John 6:47 say anything about the cross?

So, does that prove anything? Of course not. Don't be so foolish.

1 Cor 15-
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

You see, as we noted previously, the facts surrounding the gospel message—such as the death and resurrection of Christ—are important facts for what they tell us about the reasons for trusting Christ. But believing these facts doesn’t save anyone. People are only saved when they believe that Jesus gives them eternal life the moment they believe in Him for that. [Zane C. Hodges, “How to Lead People to Christ, Pt.2,” Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society 14 (Spring 2001): 12.]

I'll stick with what the Bible says, unlike yourself.

 

[EmSw]

What would make you think I accept everything from anyone?


So, does that prove anything? Of course not. Don't be so foolish.

1 Cor 15-
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,


I'll stick with what the Bible says, unlike yourself.

So you don't agree with your own denominational group? Do you think Hodges is a fake and is lying?

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, what is extreme is to trust your feelings/emotions. They are untrustworthy.

There is a simple point here. What you call a fact, is a series of concepts or statements which one believes are true, within the confines of the summary. The reason why you believe them to be true is emotional, nothing more. It is literally why insane people are so certain they are right. We rely on our emotions confirming our chain of logic is true.

It is 100% illustrated by the concept of cognitive dissonance. This is a jump in ones thinking because the emotional grasp will not allow the position to be seen clearly. It is also why we deceive ourselves about what we do, the reasons why and what we dislike.

My belief even in this analysis is emotional.
The problem with our culture today is we are so academic, we have lost the ability to connect with who we really are. For thousands of years most people could neither read nor write. Working as a group was their foundation, because only the group made it possible.

So I am sorry you hate yourself this much and do not allow who you are come to the surface, but however we are, we are the whole of our emotions, our thoughts, our actions. They are all interlinked and related and if not connected up properly we are a mess. My question is whether eternity is this connecting up and becoming real, which eternally is only possible through the cross and Jesus.
I can see how the cross is our medicine, the love that gives us the courage to be honest, to accept our failure and falleness, and let God do His work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you don't agree with your own denominational group? Do you think Hodges is a fake and is lying?

I don't have a denominational group.

Why don't you not accept what Hodges says? I know your view of the cross; that it's a pagan human sacrifice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My belief even in this analysis is emotional.

It sure is. Which is the problem in your beliefs. Everything is emotional, nothing is factual. Those who live on feelings are unstable. Those who live on facts are stable.

So I am sorry you hate yourself this much and do not allow who you are come to the surface

Your inability to accurately assess my beliefs is amazing. But I would expect such a screwy view from one who lives and is driven by emotions.

but however we are, we are the whole of our emotions, our thoughts, our actions.

I never suggested otherwise.

They are all interlinked and related and if not connected up properly we are a mess.

No, only when our emotions take over are we "a mess". But that's not me.

My question is whether eternity is this connecting up and becoming real, which eternally is only possible through the cross and Jesus.

I cannot figure out your sentence here. Please re-phrase.

 

[EmSw]

I don't have a denominational group.

Why don't you not accept what Hodges says? I know your view of the cross; that it's a pagan human sacrifice.

Oh yes, you belong to a group. And Hodges is part of your group. Why lie about it? And don't say you aren't a denomination; you are.

a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect:
the definition of denomination

And no! I will not accept what he says.

You are so emotional about defending your beliefs.

 

[Gr8Grace]

What box are you in FreeGrace? You got to be in a box, so I can lump you together and make blanket statements about you!

It's amazing that a local assembly, with no affiliations and just has a teacher(with the ACTUAL gift of teaching) that leads his assembly is virtually unknown in today's world.

 

[JLB777]

It surely does say that. But you don't understand what it means.

Will the branch that is disconnected from the vine continue to have life apart from the vine?


Do branches that are disconnected from the vine and are cast into the fire and burned, continue to live?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

What box are you in FreeGrace? You got to be in a box, so I can lump you together and make blanket statements about you!

Box??!! I thought the world was round-ish.

It's amazing that a local assembly, with no affiliations and just has a teacher(with the ACTUAL gift of teaching) that leads his assembly is virtually unknown in today's world.

Worse than sad, it's tragic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Will the branch that is disconnected from the vine continue to have life apart from the vine?

In the world of agricultural metaphors, no. Not even in the real world of agriculture.

But in the real world of God's plan and promises, those given eternal life by Jesus, based on faith in Him, shall never perish.

But you don't live in the real world of God's plan or promises.

What cult did you say you belong to?

Do branches that are disconnected from the vine and are cast into the fire and burned, continue to live?
JLB

Ah, I see. The church of the burnt branch. Or CBB for short.

 

[JLB777]

In the world of agricultural metaphors, no. Not even in the real world of agriculture.

So you believe that Jesus wasn’t referring to people?


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Everything in red refers to people who were at one time “in Him”.



I see now why your theology is so twisted.

You simply just pick out what you want to hear, and explain away the rest of Jesus’ doctrine.



JLB