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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
1. The saints are taken to heaven at Christ's return (second coming) - as Christ promised in John 14.

They are not taken to heaven nor does that passage speak of where the saints are taken to. .

John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

The "Father in heaven"(Matthew 6 - Lord's Prayer) - to "My Father's house"

Jesus went to heaven. We know in fact "the place" -- is heaven.

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

Phil 3:20
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
 
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Monk Brendan

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Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years at the 2nd coming. -- "I will come again" John 14.



the 1000 years are literal -

.

No, they are not.

TWICE in the Scriptures, in the Psalter, and in one of the letters of ST. Peter (where he is talking about the return of Christ), we are told that 1000 years is NOT literal with God.

Now you go to Revelation, the most symbolic, pictorial book of the Bible--and all of a sudden these are literal?

Think again.
 
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BobRyan

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No, they are not.

TWICE in the Scriptures, in the Psalter, and in one of the letters of ST. Peter (where he is talking about the return of Christ), we are told that 1000 years is NOT literal with God.

No we are not

No text in all of scripture says "a day" or "a year" or "a thousand years" is not literal when God describes events that happen for a certain length of time... which is where you needed this to go.

In Dan 9 God said it would be 483 days (day for year - 483 years) from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the start of the Messianic mission of the Christ and that is exactly how long it was "in real life".

God said Christ would rise on the third day -- and that is when He was raised from the dead.

There are many examples in the Bible where God specifies an amount of time and it is "real".

The "with God" aspect would mean you would first have to "Be God" to say that to you 1000 years is not real.
 
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Monk Brendan

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\\

No text in all of scripture says "a day" or "a year" or "a thousand years" is not literal when God describes events that happen for a certain length of time.\\

Yes, it does.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise to us, but know this: one day with the Lord as as 1000 years and 1000 as one day.

That's in St. Peter.

Is that verse not in your Bible?

And your attempt to prove your point, you contradicted yourself, saying that some 400 + days were really years.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Rev 20 says the saints had been slain -- past tense and that they "came to life" in the "first resurrection".

It separates the resurrection of the wicked - from that of the righteous by 1000 years
The 1st resurrection is in Revelation 11
It is the resurrection and rapture of the 2 witnesses at the harvest of the land in Israel/Judea:

What is the "Valley of Bones in Ezek 37 all about?


Ezekiel 37
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of adam!
these bones are the whole house of Israel.
[Luke 2:34 Luke 21:27 Revelation 11:12]

Luke 2:34

And Simon blesses them and said toward Mariam, the mother of Him, "behold!
this-One is set/lying for the Falling and Ressurection/ana-stasin <386> of many in Israel, and into a Sign spoken against"-- [Ezekiel 37 "valley of bones]

Luke prophecies those 1st century Jews in Judea would see Him on the cloud:[I wasn't there so I don't know if they did or not]

Luke 21:
21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Here is the Son of Man on a cloud after His ascension in Acts 1:

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting
having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

And the resurrection and rapture of the 2 witnesses:

Revelation 11:12

11 And after the three days and half a spirit/breath of life out of the God into-came in them, and they stand<2476> upon their feet, and great fear falls upon those seeing them. [Ezekiel 37:10]
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead-ones not live until should be being finished the thousand years. This the first Resurrection/ana-stasiV <386>.


.
 
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BobRyan

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The 1st resurrection is in Revelation 11
It is the resurrection and rapture of the 2 witnesses at the harvest of the land in Israel/Judea:


That is symbolic as are the 2 witnesses.

And Rev 11 does not call this "the first resurrection".

By contrast in Rev 20 the text itself informs us that this is the "First resurrection".
 
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BobRyan

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\\

No text in all of scripture says "a day" or "a year" or "a thousand years" is not literal when God describes events that happen for a certain length of time.\\

Yes, it does.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise to us, but know this: one day with the Lord as as 1000 years and 1000 as one day.
.

It is not tell us that God's description of 1000 years is a day. Rather it speaks of "with the Lord" so you only have an issue there -- if you are God. In the mean time God tells us 3 days and 3 nights for Christ, God tells us 490 years in Daniel 9 for Israel and also tells us about Jeremiahs 70 years of captivity for Israel in Babylon - all of which work out in "real time".

You are glossing over the "with God" part as if you yourself were God and needed to make a day 1000 years
 
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Rubiks

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No, they are not.

TWICE in the Scriptures, in the Psalter, and in one of the letters of ST. Peter (where he is talking about the return of Christ), we are told that 1000 years is NOT literal with God.

Now you go to Revelation, the most symbolic, pictorial book of the Bible--and all of a sudden these are literal?

Think again.

The Bible saying a day is like a thousand years isn't a cipher for interpreting the Bible. Other than that, I agree.
 
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ewq1938

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BobRyan said:
1. The saints are taken to heaven at Christ's return (second coming) - as Christ promised in John 14.



John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

The "Father in heaven"(Matthew 6 - Lord's Prayer) - to "My Father's house"

Jesus went to heaven. We know in fact "the place" -- is heaven.

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

That's where the dead saints go when they die. When the time of the resurrection and rapture and happen the dead saints leave heaven with Christ, and the living saints raptured up to meet them in the clouds and all follow Christ as he lands upon the Earth. The reign of the saints is on the earth not in heaven.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Also take note the camp of the saints is on the Earth because they reign on the Earth not in heaven where God is when he rains fire upon the unsaved.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Christ takes all the saints to heaven for 1000 years at the 2nd coming. -- "I will come again" John 14.



the 1000 years are literal -

But it is not where Christ reigns on Earth because Revelation 19 says all the wicked are killed when Christ comes again (second coming) - and John 14 says that when He comes again he takes the saints with Him - back to heaven.

Nothing left here but a desolate Earth - as the OT prophets predicted.

======================
DESOLATE Earth

Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21

At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).

So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another?
No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe


Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
1. Here are a few verses that disagree with your position.
"Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
________________________________________________________
And pair it with these verses.
Why does it say only those who are dead in Christ shall rise first?
1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
____________________________________________________________
Why does it say those who dead will rise first and those who are alive and remain in Christ at his second coming?
Luke 21
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

1 Cor 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15,17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


________________________________________________________

Why does it say we who are alive and remain will not prevent those who are dead from rising?
1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Why Does it say that Christ's second coming is only when he comes down with fire at the Last trump?
Revelation 20:
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
2 Peter 3:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matt 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
____________________________________________________

And finally why is the dividing of the righteous and wicked happening only after his second coming when he has Sat upon the throne of His Glory?
Matt 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1-2
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
____________________________________________________

2. The Lord's coming is after the 1000 years and the heavens and the earth are destroyed by fire.
Yahshua comes/destroys the Heavens, earth, and wicked with fire(Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17; 26:2; 2:19; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; 2:2; 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10-11,31; Hosea 10:8; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).
This is the time of the second resurrection. Both the righteous(that were not part of the first resurrection) and the wicked will be raised to be judged at this time.
Revelation 20:
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Daniel 12:
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shameand everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

_______________________________________________
3. The first resurrection is only for the righteous dead up until that point(Revelation 20:4-6).
The second resurrection is for everyone else at the Lord's coming.(Revelation 20:5,9-15)
 
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ewq1938

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John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

_______________________________________________
3. The first resurrection is only for the righteous dead up until that point(Revelation 20:4-6).
The second resurrection is for everyone else at the Lord's coming.(Revelation 20:5,9-15)


The verses you posted prove these statements to be false. All the righteous dead are resurrected together not in stages. It is the unsaved that resurrect at a separate time as Rev 20 shows. The first resurrection is to immortality, the second resurrection is for damnation.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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The verses you posted prove these statements to be false. All the righteous dead are resurrected together not in stages. It is the unsaved that resurrect at a separate time as Rev 20 shows. The first resurrection is to immortality, the second resurrection is for damnation.
After the first resurrection the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These are those that remained in the dust of the earth.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Both the righteous and unrighteous are judged at the same time At the last trump.
Matt 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1-2
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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ewq1938

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Both the righteous and unrighteous are judged at the same time At the last trump.
Matt 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Nothing shows both groups being judged at the same time. Always the saved are judged first and the unsaved at a later time. Rev 20 makes this the most clear because the unsaved are judged over a 1000 years after the saved.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Nothing shows both groups being judged at the same time. Always the saved are judged first and the unsaved at a later time. Rev 20 makes this the most clear because the unsaved are judged over a 1000 years after the saved.
Not true they are both judged at the same time by their works. Some are judged righteous and some are judged unrighteous. But both are judged at the same time after the books are opened.

Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1-2
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

___________________________________________________

Every account says they are judged at the same resurrection at Christ's coming. What verses are you looking at that say we are not all taken to be judged at Christ's coming with fire?
Revelation 20:
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

1 Cor 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15,17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Nothing shows both groups being judged at the same time. Always the saved are judged first and the unsaved at a later time. Rev 20 makes this the most clear because the unsaved are judged over a 1000 years after the saved.
He does not sit on the throne of Glory to judge until his second coming. The dividing doesn't take place until he has sat upon it to judge.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
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ewq1938

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Not true they are both judged at the same time by their works. Some are judged righteous and some are judged unrighteous. But both are judged at the same time after the books are opened.

Only the unsaved are judged at that time. The saved were judged a thousand years earlier:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

As you can see, after being resurrected for judgment, these people are still called the dead. That is because they are spiritually dead and are the unsaved who are being judged to damnation.



Daniel 12:1-2
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These are the two groups who are judged separately as we see in Rev 20. Nothing here says "on the same day".



1 Cor 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matt 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Once again, the saved dead are judged at a different time than the unsaved. The saved are always judged first as well.

You also claim at the GWTJ there is saved being judged with the unsaved yet in this passage there are no sheep mixed in with the goats being judged is there? It's ALL THE SHEEP first, then all the goats last. No sheep are judged when the goats are judged. Rev 20 shows the same thing but tells us how much time pass inbetween the two judgment days.
 
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ewq1938

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He does not sit on the throne of Glory to judge until his second coming.


Everyone understands that. The judging of the saves happens when he returns. The judging of the unsaved is at a later time according to Rev 20 and other scriptures already posted.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Only the unsaved are judged at that time. The saved were judged a thousand years earlier:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.





As you can see, after being resurrected for judgment, these people are still called the dead. That is because they are spiritually dead and are the unsaved who are being judged to damnation.





These are the two groups who are judged separately as we see in Rev 20. Nothing here says "on the same day".



1 Cor 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Once again, the saved dead are judged at a different time than the unsaved. The saved are always judged first as well.

You also claim at the GWTJ there is saved being judged with the unsaved yet in this passage there are no sheep mixed in with the goats being judged is there? It's ALL THE SHEEP first, then all the goats last. No sheep are judged when the goats are judged. Rev 20 shows the same thing but tells us how much time pass inbetween the two judgment days.
Those who were beheaded for the witness of Christ, that seems to be the part your missing. Those are the ones who lived and reined with Christ.
Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are the dead in Christ being raised first. They are those already in the Clouds when the rest of the righteous are raised at the lord's coming
1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Many among them are the same souls that Cried out from under the alter, to whom robes were given.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

_______________________________________________________
The living righteous will remain until the coming of the Lord. The living Righteous are the ones who see his coming with fire at the last trump. On the day of the Lord, in that day, at the last trump.
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Both righteous and unrighteous are shown to be judged at this time.
1. At the time of the last trump those in the book of life are saved being counted worthy of entering the kingdom of heaven.
Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.




2. At the time of the Last trump those who were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

_____________________________________________________
They are called dead because they were the dead that remained in the earth at it's destruction by fire.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Out of these dead raised only those not found written in the book were cast into the lake of fire. It does not say all those raised in the second resurrection were cast into the lake of fire.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Everyone understands that. The judging of the saves happens when he returns. The judging of the unsaved is at a later time according to Rev 20 and other scriptures already posted.
When he returns everything is destroyed and nothing of this earth and it's heavens remains.
So this line of thinking"The judging of the saves happens when he returns. The judging of the unsaved is at a later time " Cannot be true.
(Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17; 26:21; 2:19-21; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; 2:2; 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10-11,31; Hosea 10:8; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).
I would prefer that you read them instead of making me have to post each of them brother.
 
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