(1 Thess 4) believe in rapture?

[ViaCrucis]

Then what do you make of 1 Thess 4:16-17 ?

EDIT!

That it's talking about the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming. Jesus is coming down, the dead are raised, and we meet the returning Jesus. There is simply nothing there about Jesus taking anyone into heaven, that is entirely absent from the text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Almost there]

If post trib is true...

Then Christ comes not as a thief... In times unexpected.
It happens not as in the days of Noah
It happens not as in the days of Lot

So... There is no need to be ready for it!

He comes as a thief to those who are not prepared. i.e. unbelievers.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He comes as a thief to those who are not prepared. i.e. unbelievers.

He specifically tells His followers, "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[friend of]

@RC1970

How do you explain:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[friend of]

I thought more people would vote!

 

[rockytopva]

@RC1970

How do you explain:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

That would be a rather quick trip, if this were pretrib, wouldn't you say? To be caught up together with the Lord in the skies and then return with him to reign a thousand years!

 

[rockytopva]

I thought more people would vote!

Fine wording says... "This poll will close on Nov 20, 2018 at 9:40 PM."

 

[Blade]

Yes and no....in the fact that the sweet sweet Holy Spirit can't lie. I read Jesus saying face to face.. I will come back and get you/take you/receive you unto my self so where I am you will be. WHERE I am you know. So.. Jesus can't lie and never came and got them. So.. as I read it.. He does not know. Only after He rose nothing had to happen for Him to come back and get them. So He never did. He lied or He does not know. I go with the 2nd.

And for me.. to read voice,shout trump.. Jesus in the clouds.. dead rise.. then we also ..all taken up to be with Christ in the air..not ground. For ever. <---for me to say WHEN that WILL happen.. I would have to lie. It does not say when. As I see it .. those who follow Christ are all in this house. Some are looking out the window.. some look then go back and do other things.. others are not watching at all.

What I personally know about my Father. He has never lied to me. And every time I take Him at His word.. I stand on His word.. it ALWAYS EVERY TIME has happen. He never lies. So.. this "Caught up" will happen and MAN gets no say in that what so ever. If its written it will happen. So.. my yes and no is.. It will happen.. but pre mid or post.. is not written. So.. as I read I was not promised tomorrow. I can prepare for tomorrow. But.. to have faith in a day I was never promised..for me is foolish.

So.. I am always ready NOW! This is all I have. This is right now is what He gave me. So in this moment I will rejoice.. praise Him.. thank Him.. and like they were always.. I am ready watching praying expecting Him NOW! There is TIME with Him. Jesus just left.. what ..just over two days ago. So...a YEAH...He will come any moment. And.. since He does not force me to believe say think do anything. If I am not watching ready expecting Him. <---that for me if He came.. would be like a thief in the night. Where someone came.. took something.. and I never knew it. So.. I am ready now. And I will never miss Him. YOUR free choice.. always remember YOU are free to make it.

So..DON'T believe a word I say. You seek you pray.. you ask HIM. To this very day.. I have never meet anyone that said "Jesus told me I dont have to expect Him now..I don't have to be watching today." Kind of talk. Never happens. I just can't get pass the "I will come back for you". I got mad at Him once.. about things not going right.. and blaming Him lol. And He came right back with "WHEN Have I ever failed you?"... He can't lie.. ever. Nor does He jest. He means every word.. EVERY WORD means something..

Know this.. I only speak what I know.. not wonder.. not hope.. JESUS IS REAL! Take the time to NOT TALK all the time.. and just LISTEN..He will ALWAYS back up ..with His word.

 

[ewq1938]

I tend to agree, but sometimes he wants to make a point.

Not in this case. There is no extra wrath time on the second coming. It's all completed that day it is even written that all of Babylons destruction takes an hour and by the language used it's speaking of how quickly it was destroyed not that hour here is a long period of time. And other scriptures speak of the day of wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

No Paul does not ...only those who interpret it that way , think that way

There is no interpretation. Paul lists the order of events but pre-trib ignores this.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we have the rapture.

Placing the rapture before the resurrection is obviously incorrect and that's exactly what pre-trib does to force it's order of events past what Paul said.

 

[seventysevens]

There is no interpretation. Paul lists the order of events but pre-trib ignores this.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we have the rapture.

Placing the rapture before the resurrection is obviously incorrect and that's exactly what pre-trib does to force it's order of events past what Paul said.

Why would you not respond to the rest of my post , ?
If you have such proof please provide , it is one thing to take a stand , but yet another to back it up with evidence,

"
Give this a thought since that every time that God told his people about a major disaster or devastation was going to occur God gave his people explicit instructions on how he would protect/spare his people , but in a post trib view there is not a clear word on exactly how God will protect his people , in every defense of the post trib view it is relying on some assumed assumption that men have conjured up , Not a word from God about , but yet Jesus tells us outright that he will remove his people out from the great trib .
If you have a scripture that clearly and definitively shows that IF the great trib would begin tomorrow that all born again Christians today will enter into without adding in assumptions I would like to see it , Philip was harpazo instantly without notice , suddenly with no scripture teaching that it would happen until the scripture that clearly showed it happened , yes the scripture word is harpazo "

 

[seventysevens]

We should be able to have a real in depth talk about this .,like having a cup of coffee together , but as always that does not happen

 

[ewq1938]

Why would you not respond to the rest of my post , ?

It's important to be orderly so the order of events given by Paul must be dealt with first before jumping to other things. What he wrote proves pre-trib to be wrong because pre-trib teaches a different order of events.

 

[seventysevens]

It's important to be orderly so the order of events given by Paul must be dealt with first before jumping to other things. What he wrote proves pre-trib to be wrong because pre-trib teaches a different order of events.

yes it is important , so that is why I ask you to provide proof to back up what you claim , but you disregard everything asked of you leads to believe you have no eveidence to back up your claim , why not share what proof you have > obviously there are millions of Christians that do not agree with your view

 

[ewq1938]

yes it is important , so that is why I ask you to provide proof to back up what you claim

I did that multiple times. I am waiting for you to address the scriptures provided.

 

[seventysevens]

I did that multiple times. I am waiting for you to address the scriptures provided.

You did ? and you did this Without making assumed assumptions ? so you can prove that if the Great Trib began tomorrow all Christians will go through It ?
I did not see it but I bet $10 you made assumptions that can be proved wrong

 

[ewq1938]

You did ? and you did this Without making assumed assumptions ?

Yes but it's hard to have a one sided conversation about it Please go to post 70, quote it and line by line explain how I am wrong.

 

[Oldmantook]

but yet Jesus tells us outright that he will remove his people out from the great trib

Where exactly does Jesus explicitly say that he will remove his people out from the great trib?

 

[JLB777]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

Yes, the rapture takes place just after the resurrection, in which both are caught up together to be with the Lord in the as He descends to Jerusalem to take His place as King over the whole earth.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

• we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.

This event of His people being gathered together happens at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord.

1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16

2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

JLB

 

[RC1970]

@RC1970

How do you explain:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Verse 17 is part of the resurrection. Now, obviously, people who are still alive don't need to resurrect in the strict sense, but they do need to be "resurrected" from their current sinful state and this "body of death" that we carry around.

Paul's concern in this whole passage is clearly teaching that those believers, who have already died, will, on the last day, rise and after they have risen, those who have not yet died will also rise.

Now, if you want to call verse 17 a "rapture", that's okay, but I think that word (which is loaded with all kinds of theological misunderstanding) is not as meaningful as the word "resurrection".