(1 Thess 4) believe in rapture?

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

I'm shocked by the poll results tbh... didn't realize so many don't believe in a biblical rapture. For those that don't what do you substitute that with? what is the alternative theory

 

[claninja]

This event will be like the days of Noah and Lot... Suddenly and unexpected!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man .
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib rapture it would be rather well announced!

It appears that in the verses you posted from Matthew the ones taken away are actually the ones who face judgement and destruction.

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man .

 

[ewq1938]

Verse 17 is part of the resurrection. Now, obviously, people who are still alive don't need to resurrect in the strict sense, but they do need to be "resurrected" from their current sinful state and this "body of death" that we carry around.

Nope. They are the ones who are changed (allassō) in a twinkling of an eye and then are raptured. They are not part of the group who are resurrected.

Paul's concern in this whole passage is clearly teaching that those believers, who have already died, will, on the last day, rise and after they have risen, those who have not yet died will also rise.

Well, a completely different kind of rising...

Now, if you want to call verse 17 a "rapture", that's okay, but I think that word (which is loaded with all kinds of theological misunderstanding) is not as meaningful as the word "resurrection".

Resurrection is the wrong word for sure. Rapture is the correct word and is what Paul used using the Greek word for rapture (harpazo).

 

[ewq1938]

It appears that in the verses you posted from Luke, the ones taken away are actually the ones who face judgement and destruction.

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man .

That's a different Greek word than the word taken as in taken and left plus that "taking" is done after Christ has taken and left those who belong to either of those.

Did you read the definitions of taken and left? Taken means to be abandoned, rejected and left to die while left means to be accepted and to take with one's self...do you want Christ to take or leave you?

 

[seventysevens]

There is no interpretation. Paul lists the order of events but pre-trib ignores this.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we have the rapture.

Placing the rapture before the resurrection is obviously incorrect and that's exactly what pre-trib does to force it's order of events past what Paul said.

This topic is really more in depth than many realize due to the fact that some scriptures that pertain to the topic simply do not get into the discussions because so much focus on other scriptures and refusal to accept what some other scriptures mean, I will lead into your post ..

Matthew 27:52King James Version (KJV)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is a fact, that these people who were once dead in the graves were resurrected to life again after Jesus resurrection but many people have never heard this before , because the preachers do not teach but only about half of the bible and never speak of the other half of it, and whats worse some commentators have the absurd audacity to say that those who came back to life simply lived out their years in a mortal body and died a second time ...What ???... Thankfully there are better commentators who tell the sensible view which is to simply accept the fact that Jesus resurrected those people and after they visited with many people in the city telling how Jesus brought them back to life that they were taken up into Heaven with Jesus where they are now.

Scripture is silent on what happened to them but the most sensible view is to simply accept Jesus took them into heaven with him along with all the saints that were in Abraham's bosom .

Scripture clearly and concisely states that it is appointed unto men to die Once , not twice , only Once and then comes judgment , to suggest that those that Jesus resurrected after his own resurrection would die a second time is a clear distortion of scriptural facts.

Those people that Jesus resurrected are also included in the 'first fruits of resurrection' even if some churches teach that only Jesus is the first fruits . This is also the first resurrection of the saints , so it requires a deeper level of study to understand when Revelation speaks of a first resurrection.
It is scriptures like this that throw kink in some peoples teaching because they do not include it in their teaching.

So you see since there has already been a resurrection it does not put anything out of order with the rapture . There is actually a whole lot more to the teaching of first fruits than most realize and really helps clarify deeper things of the rapture .

Another point to ponder about the rapture and second coming of Jesus is consider that Jesus gives 1290 days or 42 months the Great Trib lasts and at the end Jesus returns at his second coming - he has told us when he will return almost to the day - now consider the several scriptures that tell us how we are not to know when he returns , like a theif in the night- at a time we least expect it - no one knows the day ,etc it happens suddenly when we are not expecting it - suddenly snatched away in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye the harpazo !

Jesus tells us outright that when he returns to earth every eye on earth will watch Him and his saints and his angels come down out of heaven to earth and when his feet hit the earth Mt Olivet is split in two creating a valley in between .

Now we need to employ the wisdom that God can give us as to when the harpazo would happen , God created us in HIS Image we can develop computer technology , design spacecraft the animal world cannot we need to use the power of reasoning and intellect to analyze each aspect of each view of the harpazo to see how it best fits into Gods plan for us.
Just as God gave warning to Noah of the flood and told him to build an ark to protect himself and the animals , Jesus tells he will keep us out from the worst judgment time of earth that there will ever be , simply because we put or trust in him and believe what he tells us when he says he will keep us out of that terrible time

 

[seventysevens]

Where exactly does Jesus explicitly say that he will remove his people out from the great trib?

It has gotten late but I will show you tomorrow

 

[ewq1938]

So you see since there has already been a resurrection it does not put anything out of order with the rapture .

Paul wasn't talking about just any resurrection but the resurrection of the dead in Christ after Christ leaves heaven for the second coming. That particular resurrection event happens after the second coming begins and before the rapture happens. All three of those major events happen not just the same day but same hour and likely within seconds. The whole point is the rapture cannot happen until the resurrection of the dead in Christ is done and finished. That simply disproves any other rapture theory as to when it occurs.

 

[seventysevens]

Paul wasn't talking about just any resurrection but the resurrection of the dead in Christ after Christ leaves heaven for the second coming. That particular resurrection event happens after the second coming begins and before the rapture happens. All three of those major events happen not just the same day but same hour and likely within seconds. The whole point is the rapture cannot happen until the resurrection of the dead in Christ is done and finished. That simply disproves any other rapture theory as to when it occurs.

Just exactly how do you calculate that ? sounds very suspect as in assumption , unless you have scripture that specifically states that clearly and outright it will be nothing more than conjecture , the only thing scripture speaks of is that the dead in Christ rise first and then immediately after we that are still alive get caught up with them

2 reasons it seems impossible that post trib is valid
I asked over the years 1000 post tribber to provide scripture that we go through the great trib and no one can provide any at all , the best they can offer is an assumption based supposition , as such in innocent until proven guilty , the accuser has the responsibility of proving their claim , if they can't they should simply acknowledge it

There is scripture that states that Jesus will keep us out of the Great trib

and again as I said before God always gives exact instructions to his people of how he will protect his people
If a person does not see , they should accept when it is shown , especially if they cannot provide evidence to the contrary

 

[ewq1938]

Just exactly how do you calculate that ? sounds very suspect as in assumption , unless you have scripture that specifically states that clearly and outright it will be nothing more than conjecture , the only thing scripture speaks of is that the dead in Christ rise first and then immediately after we that are still alive get caught up with them

2 reasons it seems impossible that post trib is valid
I asked over the years 1000 post tribber to provide scripture that we go through the great trib and no one can provide any at all , the best they can offer is an assumption based supposition

I have posted the scriptures which plainly state the rapture is after the resurrection and second coming which means it's after the trib. You have tried to explain what Paul said or why it's wrong aside from saying resurrections have happened in the past which doesn't address the actual resurrection Paul wrote about. That means the church goes through the trib because her rapture is not until the trib has ended.

 

[God bless Joshua]

Paul places the resurrection and rapture after the tribulation

Why would God take the believers to heaven when tribulation is over, antichrist is dead and the world returns to peace, just to make a U TURN in the sky to return to earth ?

 

[JacksBratt]

I have posted the scriptures which plainly state the rapture is after the resurrection and second coming which means it's after the trib. You have tried to explain what Paul said or why it's wrong aside from saying resurrections have happened in the past which doesn't address the actual resurrection Paul wrote about. That means the church goes through the trib because her rapture is not until the trib has ended.

Just think about that for a second......

Christ will come and take all the Christians of all time, on earth.... those who have died, first, then those living and they will be "caught up" in the air to meet Him, in the twinkling of an eye..

OK..... how many Christians are going to be alive at the end of the tribulation? Or, for that matter, even half way through....

You have a government that is totally anti Christian, even totally hostile to Christians, Killing Christians or anybody if they don't take the mark.....You have Christians who know that taking the mark means no salvation.... Everyone is going to be hunting down Christians or those that won't take the mark. You cannot buy, sell, work, travel.....nothing....just hide.

So, how many Christians are going to be able to hide and live out the seven years of this in depth drag net?

This would mean that the number of Christians who are living at the end would be zero.

This doesn't fit the perceived view of the glorious event that the Rapture is presented as.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

So, how many Christians are going to be able to hide and live out the seven years of this in depth drag net?

Bible does not teach a seven year period of tribulation. This is an assumption gained from the mis interpertation that the last week of the seventy week prophecy pertains to the ant-christ instead of to the ministry, death of Jesus and the Gospel going to the Gentiles.(70 weeks are determined upon my people)
This mis interpertation is from the counter reformation teaching developed by a Jesuit and adopted by the RCC and most protestants of today.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matt 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Take heed as time is short.

 

[Grandliseur]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

A physical rapture is not possible. A person would have to be changed in the instant mentioned to be raptured, and only the saints will have this happening to them.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

​

 

[Grandliseur]

This doesn't fit the perceived view of the glorious event that the Rapture is presented as.

The teaching found in scripture is not what many understand. I am not sure many are ready for the undiluted teachings.
So, while Christ tells us that the saints still alive shall be taken and collected upon his return, Revelation chapter 7 tells us that many non saint Christians shall survive into Paradise as is. How other people can understand that is up to them, but so it is.

The secret is in what and where the kingdom is going to be. Read Daniel chapter 7, Psalms 72 and 39 if memory serves.

 

[claninja]

That's a different Greek word than the word taken as in taken and left plus that "taking" is done after Christ has taken and left those who belong to either of those.

Did you read the definitions of taken and left? Taken means to be abandoned, rejected and left to die while left means to be accepted and to take with one's self...do you want Christ to take or leave you?

Here is the definition of "eren" (took away) in matthew 24:39: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.

Matthew 24:39
And they were oblivious, until the flood came and took them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man.

So it definitely appears that those who were taken away by the flood, were the ones who were judged. Then it would be better to have been left (in this context).

 

[JacksBratt]

Bible does not teach a seven year period of tribulation. This is an assumption gained from the mis interpertation that the last week of the seventy week prophecy pertains to the ant-christ instead of to the ministry, death of Jesus and the Gospel going to the Gentiles.(70 weeks are determined upon my people)
This mis interpertation is from the counter reformation teaching developed by a Jesuit and adopted by the RCC and most protestants of today.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Matt 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Take heed as time is short.

So, in plain language, how do you see the end of this age coming about?

As far as I'm concerned, seven years, three years... whatever, the wrath of God will be poured out as it is depicted in the book of Revelations.

I also believe that no Christian will be submitted to the wrath of God.

 

[JacksBratt]

A physical rapture is not possible. A person would have to be changed in the instant mentioned to be raptured, and only the saints will have this happening to them.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

​

Exactly.... an who are the saints? Any believer in Christ.

You are correct, we will be instantly changed.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

So, in plain language, how do you see the end of this age coming about?

As far as I'm concerned, seven years, three years... whatever, the wrath of God will be poured out as it is depicted in the book of Revelations.

I also believe that no Christian will be submitted to the wrath of God.

You last statement is very true. Only the filthy will suffer the rightous are protected by God, but they are still here,

Probation closes, Judgement has been completed when Michael stands up.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation 22:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Remember the story of the blood on the doorposts in Egypt. The blood of Christ will protect us during the last plagues

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Isaiah 51:

6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

Wow! So the people He saves have to be taken out of the earth somehow, or else they would die when it's destroyed. Cool verse.

Praise Yahweh!

 

[Ron Gurley]

Sequence of events
return
resurrection
rapture
reunion
When mid tribulation
Time only the Father