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Featured (1 Thess 4) believe in rapture?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by friend of, Nov 20, 2017.

Do you believe in Rapture?!

Poll closed Nov 20, 2018.
  1. Yes, I believe a physical rapture will occur

    24 vote(s)
    68.6%
  2. No, I do not believe there is sufficient scriptural support for rapture

    11 vote(s)
    31.4%
  3. Undecided...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

    For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
    13
    Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
    14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
    15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
    18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    1
    Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
    13
    But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    Blessings to all!
     
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  2. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    I'm undecided really.

    But I will say that these verses can be interpreted metaphorically (that doesn't mean I'm saying they have to be.)

    "Air" is also used in the expression "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2, referring to Satan I think.

    "Cloud" is also used in the expression "cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1, meaning a group of people.

    Perhaps this is saying that we will be gathered together in groups to receive the power of the air with Christ, when Satan's finally kicked out of power.

    "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 can literally mean "morning star."

    Look what Yahushua calls Himself in Revelation 22:16. Also notice what He gives to the overcomers in Revelation 2:28.

    Also remember, the Kingdom comes down from heaven to earth: Revelation 21:1-4.

    If we take 1 Thessalonians 4:17 too literally, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" makes it sound like we'll always be in heaven.

    So this may be what Paul really meant.

    Thank you for asking! These are just my thoughts, not an argument.

    Praise Yahweh!
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Many don't pay attention to the order of events:

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Then we have the rapture. Therefore the Rapture can only happen after the second coming which is after the tribulation has ended also found here:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Second coming FIRST then the Rapture:

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    These scriptures prove a post-trib rapture.
     
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  4. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I don't believe there is enough proof in scripture or tradition to formulate a doctrine of the rapture, in my humble opinion it is an eschatological metaphor.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    The word Rapture is actually very much in the bible and thus is quite biblical. One must merely do a little bit of studying in the original languages to understand that.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away", the Latin noun "raptus" ("a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    There are actually two raptures; That is why some people are confused.
    The Pre-Trib rapture actually is a "type" or parallel in Genesis.

    1. Enoch was translated and did not see death (Sort of like the Pre-Trib Rapture).
    2. Methuselah dies bringing in judgment (Sort of like the saints being killed during the Tribulation and thereby bringing in God's judgment after their cry with the breaking of the 6th seal).
    3. Noah and family were preserved in the Ark (Sort of like the 144,000 are sealed and protected during the Tribulation).
     
  7. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Apostle Paul is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, at the end of this fallen age, when Christ returns in His final coming, to complete His Kingdom.

    And then Revelation 21 & 22.
     
  8. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    I thought I might mention some more verses relating to the subject. In Luke 17:34-37, we get another glimpse of people being taken, but direct your attention to verse 37, where the disciples ask where the people are taken to:

    Luke 17:
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    Compare:

    Matthew 24:
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    You can see that these are not good people being taken!

    Matthew 13:
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    So we're dealing with multiple kinds!
     
  9. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    We are the eagles. Saints are referred to as eagles in Scripture. OT Scripture also says that we shall eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains. This is talking about gaining victory over our enemies and not cannablism. In other words, at the second Rapture during the Tribulation (shortly before Christ's return), the saints will be gathered so as to follow Jesus into battle out of Heaven.

    Check out my End Times Chronology at CF here:

    Pre-Trib Only - A Chronology of the End Times
     
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  10. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    Here's another interesting one:

    Revelation 11:
    11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them [who are the two witnesses], and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.​

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.​

    So in this example it would seem that perhaps cloud is literal, because "their enemies beheld them" in heaven.

    What's interesting is that these two witnesses aren't beyond the "veil" so to speak. They can be seen in the sky, so they haven't left earth as we think of it.

    I'm not aware of Revelation mentioning them again, so I don't know what happens to them after this.
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    There is only one rapture/harpazo of a group of people written to occur in the future. Paul says it happens after the resurrection.
     
  12. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    Last one from me fellas:

    Matthew 13:
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    So not only are there two gatherings, but it says that the tares are gathered first and then the wheat.

    הללו-יה, αλληλουια, praise Yahweh!
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Actually it says the two prophets not the two witnesses. The two prophets are one of the two witnesses but not both of them.
     
  14. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    This is unrelated to who is raptured at the second coming. This has to do with judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and the righteous enter into the age of eternity.
     
  15. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I don't about one or two I have had a number of ruptured tyres on my bicycle over the years. :)
     
  16. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then what do you make of 1 Thess 4:16-17 ?

    EDIT!
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  17. God bless Joshua

    God bless Joshua Well-Known Member

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  18. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Yikes, your Bible has 4 chapters in 2 Thess.? Mine only has 3 I must have been robbed. :)
     
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  19. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    Revelation 11:
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​

    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.​

    They're both witnesses and prophets! I'm pretty sure it's the same two guys
     
  20. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hallelujah! His name is above all names!
     
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