(1 Thess 4) believe in rapture?

Do you believe in Rapture?!

  • Yes, I believe a physical rapture will occur

    Votes: 24 68.6%
  • No, I do not believe there is sufficient scriptural support for rapture

    Votes: 11 31.4%
  • Undecided...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

ewq1938

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according to your listed scriptures, the ones taken were destroyed...... So we should would want to be the ones left.....correct?


Have you checked the Greek definitions of left and taken?

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".

Still want to be the one "left"?
 
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ewq1938

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If post trib is true...

Then Christ comes not as a thief... In times unexpected.
It happens not as in the days of Noah
It happens not as in the days of Lot

So... There is no need to be ready for it!

There is a need to be ready and he comes as a thief to the wicked not the righteous.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That's the wicked.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

But we will not be overtaken as by a thief because we are not in darkness like the wicked.
 
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eleos1954

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  1. Because likely we don't believe the same regarding "rapture". I believe all the dead are in the grave and at His second coming the saved dead in the grave and the living saved at that time, will all be taken to heaven together at the same time and then that's when the 1,000 year time frame starts. I do not believe in a "secret rapture".
 
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rockytopva

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Paul does give us important insight regarding the event...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

1. A great falling away
2. The son of perdition revealed

We are in the great falling away. Once the anti-Christ is revealed all doors are open for this event to happen at anytime.
 
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Oldmantook

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This event will be like the days of Noah and Lot... Suddenly and unexpected!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib rapture it would be rather well announced!
You quote Rev 16:15 but neglect to notice the very next verse where Jesus states that he comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon.
 
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ewq1938

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Paul does give us important insight regarding the event...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

1. A great falling away
2. The son of perdition revealed

We are in the great falling away. Once the anti-Christ is revealed all doors are open for this event to happen at anytime.


Yes when the AC is revealed then the second coming can happen but we are not in the falling away right now. We are before that time currently. The falling away happens in the tribulation and it is Christians falling away from Christ and is directly related to the AC claiming to be a Messiah and Christians believing his lie.
 
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SBC

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I believe RAPTURE, HARPAZO, Caught UP, are one word and short terms to describe Jesus, quickly removing BODY'S of men, physically dead & physically alive, WHO already are JUSTIFIED to be TAKEN from the earth.

I believe Jesus, is the image of the Son of Man, and is He who descends FROM Heaven, to the CLOUDS, and CALLS UP to the Clouds, those Body's that are JUSTIFIED.
Jesus, coming as the image as Son of Man, also as the Christ, who is the Power of God.
Thus Christ Jesus, descends to the clouds, can be SEEN, and has His Reputation of POWER to raise body's that have already been JUSTIFIED , BY HIM, WITH HIM, to be CLAIMED, REDEEMED, and CALLED UP and their Body's glorified.

Justified, being, those WHO gave their body's crucified with Christ, Who's soul was restored with forever life, Who's spirit was quickened with Gods Seed, who is Christ.

I believe this time, is compared to the days of Noah - when the World was more concerned with making merriment to their own content - making fun of and belittling others, who concerned themselves with doing God will.

Matt 24
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

As in the days of Noah, Noah was RAISED above the face of the waters, rising ABOVE the destruction of the of the face of earth, (BY WATER.)

Gen 7
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

We know the earth will not again experience a "cleansing" / destruction with WATER, but shall experience a "purification" / destruction with FIRE, and so too WILL those faithful to Christ Jesus, be RAISED above the face of the earth.

1 Thes 4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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RaymondG

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Have you checked the Greek definitions of left and taken?

Have you ever ask the God what he felt about this topic? Or have you been satisfied with your research, reasoning and conclusion developed in your mind?

If you are lead by your research, I see no fault in it. However, I would not be a good person to discuss these things with, as I've dismissed everything I've learned and only hold unto that which is revealed and known.
 
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RaymondG

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The conclusion of the matter...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

The whole prophecy is to show that the destruction of Sodom and of the first world happened unexpectedly, taking many by surprise. And we are warned time and time again that the rapture event will happen in like methods... Unexpectedly!

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
How is it that we watch? How do we become blessed?
 
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Almost there

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Many don't pay attention to the order of events:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we have the rapture. Therefore the Rapture can only happen after the second coming which is after the tribulation has ended also found here:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Second coming FIRST then the Rapture:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These scriptures prove a post-trib rapture.
Your talking timing. I think the OP is about whether or not you believe it will happen, not when it will happen.

For the record I'm mid-trib (aka pre-wrath). I used to be pre-trib, until I actually studied it in earnest.
 
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ewq1938

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Your talking timing. I think the OP is about whether or not you believe it will happen, not when it will happen.

For the record I'm mid-trib (aka pre-wrath). I used to be pre-trib, until I actually studied it in earnest.

You're also talking timing. Paul places the rapture after the trib so mid trib doesn't work either. The second coming and resurrection happen before the rapture so do you think those things happen in the middle of the trib?
 
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Almost there

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You're also talking timing. Paul places the rapture after the trib so mid trib doesn't work either. The second coming and resurrection happen before the rapture so do you think those things happen in the middle of the trib?
Yes, I'm definitely talking timing, as an "oh, by the way". :)

And regarding your post, I left one part out. I should have said, "I'm mid-trib (aka post-trib pre-wrath).

I believe the seven year "tribulation period" is, in essence, 3.5 years wrath of satan (and the world) against the saints, followed by the rapture, followed by 3.5 years of wrath of God against Satan and those left in the world.

Or is it Santa? I get those two mixed up.
 
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RaymondG

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Christ's last words on the subject...


Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
When you stick to scripture, you will always be right. When you add your explanations and interpretations?.....not so much. Always best to let God do the revealing........Unless one thinks they can understand without His help.....
 
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ewq1938

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Yes, I'm definitely talking timing, as an "oh, by the way". :)

And regarding your post, I left one part out. I should have said, "I'm mid-trib (aka post-trib pre-wrath).


Oh ok, we are closer in belief then although I don't believe God's wrath takes very long.
 
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seventysevens

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You're also talking timing. Paul places the rapture after the trib
No Paul does not ...only those who interpret it that way , think that way :)
Give this a thought since that every time that God told his people about a major disaster or devastation was going to occur God gave his people explicit instructions on how he would protect/spare his people , but in a post trib view there is not a clear word on exactly how God will protect his people , in every defense of the post trib view it is relying on some assumed assumption that men have conjured up , Not a word from God about , but yet Jesus tells us outright that he will remove his people out from the great trib .
If you have a scripture that clearly and definitively shows that IF the great trib would begin tomorrow that all born again Christians today will enter into without adding in assumptions I would like to see it , Philip was harpazo instantly without notice , suddenly with no scripture teaching that it would happen until the scripture that clearly showed it happened , yes the scripture word is harpazo :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1
Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

I believe in Christ's glorious return and the resurrection of the dead--as these passages state.

I do not believe in a "rapture" of Christians being taken directly into heaven--which these passages do not state.

These passages mention the resurrected and glorified saints going up to meet the returning Jesus, not being taken up into heaven.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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