(1 Thess 4) believe in rapture?

[Neal of Zebulun]

This is unrelated to who is raptured at the second coming. This has to do with judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and the righteous enter into the age of eternity.

But isn't interesting that in His explanation of the parable later in the chapter, that it's angels who do the gathering? I wonder if that much is related!

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Hmm...

I think I'll change my vote to yes. In the sense that there will be a gathering of the saints after those who are sleeping are resurrected, like how Paul describes. I'm not sure how that all fits in with Revelation and everything, but this event does seem to be a physical reality.

I mean, would it make much difference if we're taken in the air and in the clouds for a short time, or if we were bussed to Yahweh's Tabernacle coming down to earth? It's gonna happen one way or another!

Praise Yahweh!

 

[ewq1938]

Rapture is different with the 2nd coming of Jesus

They are different events but they happen with seconds of each other so your assertion makes no sense.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

First we have the second coming, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we have the rapture.

See how simple Paul makes it? Second coming, resurrection and all the same day and all within seconds IF it even takes that long lol

 

[ewq1938]

But isn't interesting that in His explanation of the parable later in the chapter, that it's angels who do the gathering? I wonder if that much is related!

Angels do a lot of the work God commands

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

Thank you for posting this thread friend, and more! I didn't realize how close I was to putting these pieces together. It makes sense to me now what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul!

יהוה אהוב אתך

Good night, and hallelu-Yah!

 

[God bless Joshua]

See how simple Paul makes it? Second coming, resurrection and all the same day and all within seconds IF it even takes that long lol

At the 2nd coming Jesus will come with the raptured saints so how can you say second coming first then resurrection.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies that follow Jesus are the resurrected and the raptured saints who were taken to heaven be4 the Grief Tribulation.

 

[The Times]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

The rapture is the end of the world at the last trumpet, the end of the harvest, the consummation of the bride and the resurrection of the dead, when the dead in Christ are raised and those remaining alive are translated in a twinkling of an eye, into their heavenly bodies to be forever with the Lord, in his Father's house (3rd Heaven). It is at the end of Satan and his group's millenium reign and the beginning of Christ's and his bride's eternal millenium reign, after the books have been opened and those not taking part in the resurrection of the dead are thrown in the lake of fire, which is the second death. Where death and hell cannot continue past this point.

The catching up in the clouds of heaven, is to join the
Heavenly crowd who are dressed in white angelic robes, ready for the wedding supper of the lamb of God, the consummation of the bride. This would be a catching up or translating from this realm to the third heaven to be forever with the Lord, in his Father's house.

2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” (John 14:2-4)

We are being caught up or raptured from this temporal life to the eternal life, in our new heavenly bodies to be forever with the Lord, as the symbolic white cloud, the heavenly crowd.

At Christ's coming the first earth and the first heaven will flee from his presence and be no more and death and hell cannot continue past this point and they will both be thrown in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

There is no Genesis 1.0 earthly reign and no earthly flesh can come in the Holy presence of the Lord.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1)

We have to be like Jesus in our glorified heavenly bodies before we can come into his Holy presence.

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.(Hebrews 9:27-28)

The disciples had already seen Jesus the first time, when he was in the earthly body, that is before his resurrection. So this disciple says amongst his other kindred, that he will appear to them the second time, when they are without sin, meaning in their Holy glorified resurrected bodies.

Context! Context! Context!

Since one can only receive their eternal inheritance after they are destined to die once and then be judged to receive their crown of righreousnss, from the righteous judge, on that day, as Paul said in (2 Timothy 4:8).

 

[rockytopva]

This event will be like the days of Noah and Lot... Suddenly and unexpected!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib rapture it would be rather well announced!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

This is talking about the resurrection and depicting the last trumpet. The point of this passage is not to prove eschatology, but to provide comfort when loved ones in the faith pass away.

 

[RC1970]

Then what do you make of 1 Thess 4:16-17 ?

EDIT!

I assume you have a specific question, because I already answered this question.

 

[eleos1954]

For those who believe in a literal, physical uptaking upon Christ's Glorious and Triumphant return, do you agree with these verses?

For those who do not believe in the above, how would you explain 1 Thess 4:13-18??

—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
—
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Blessings to all!

Believing in a secret rapture largely depends on what one believes about the state of the dead, as you pointed out correctly. When one dies where are they?

If one beleives when one dies they "go somewhere" other than the grave, then that becomes an "issue". Immortality verses mortality. If they "go somewhere other than the grave" then they are believing in a "immortal soul" and the bible clearly teaches we are mortal and will only become immortal at Jesus' 2nd coming at the first resurrection for the saved person.

The Two Resurrections. Christ taught that there are two general resurrections: a "'resurrection of life'" for the just and a "'resurrection of condemnation'" for the unjust (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15). The 1000 years separates these resurrections (Rev. 20:4, 5).

A lot of people don't know there is a theology behind what is being taught. Depending on what theology one follows leads one "down a certain path" of belief.

There are several theologies out there. Compare Futurism Spiritualismhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism and Historicism.Historicism - Wikipedia

Wikipedia has a lot of information on these theologies, and others. There are MANY, but compare what you believe with the various theories and you will find most of what you believe falls in one of them. Not necessarily the two above. Depends on what you believe now.

I would really encourage people to go and research, and learn about these theologies where they came from and what is taught based on them. Tons of information but it is very interesting and informative. Make sure you are using some sort of a encyclopedia otherwise you end up on websites that are promoting a particular theology.

With that personally I do believe when a person dies they are asleep in the grave and will be resurrected in either the 1st or 2nd resurrection.

Overwhelming biblical evidence the dead are in the grave.

Wise to always look for overwhelming biblical evidence in the bible yourself.

God Bless

 

[RaymondG]

This event will be like the days of Noah and Lot... Suddenly and unexpected!

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. - Luke 17

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib rapture it would be rather well announced!

according to your listed scriptures, the ones taken were destroyed...... So we should would want to be the ones left.....correct?

 

[rockytopva]

according to your listed scriptures, the ones taken were destroyed...... So we should would want to be the ones left.....correct?

1. Noah's ark raptured them away.
2. The angels raptured Lot's family away
3. The angels will rapture us away.

Here today... Gone tomorrow ... we would not want to be among the ones left...

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

But... We find Lots sons in law did not believe in a rapture....

And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. -Genesis 19:14

I would say then, that those like Lots sons in law will not go up in that event as well as those like Lot's wife...

Remember Lot's wife - Matthew 24:32

 

[rockytopva]

It is in the methods of God to visit the world during the great party scene....

1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.
2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.
3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.
4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.
5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.
30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. - Daniel 5

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is only one rapture/harpazo of a group of people written to occur in the future. Paul says it happens after the resurrection.

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.​

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.​

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

​

 

[RaymondG]

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Im not questioning the lot account, or the account of Noah in the flood.

When you read these quotes, it seems that the people taken are being compared to the ones drowned in the flood. Do you not see this? Are you only able to see what you already believe?

 

[rockytopva]

Im not questioning the lot account, or the account of Noah in the flood.

When you read these quotes, it seems that the people taken are being compared to the ones drowned in the flood. Do you not see this? Are you only able to see what you already believe?

The conclusion of the matter...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

The whole prophecy is to show that the destruction of Sodom and of the first world happened unexpectedly, taking many by surprise. And we are warned time and time again that the rapture event will happen in like methods... Unexpectedly!

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

 

[ewq1938]

At the 2nd coming Jesus will come with the raptured saints so how can you say second coming first then resurrection.

Because that's what Paul says. Jesus will come from heaven to above the Earth and then the resurrection happens and after that the rapture happens.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies that follow Jesus are the resurrected and the raptured saints who were taken to heaven be4 the Grief Tribulation.

Paul places the resurrection and rapture after the tribulation so the idea of a pre-trib rapture isn't scriptural. Did you read the order in which Paul lists when each event will happen?

 

[ewq1938]

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

The verse says no such thing.

​

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

That's the same event. This happens just after the rapture occurs so the raptured see him and so will the rest of the world.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.​

Still the same event. He leaves heaven, the resurrection happens so the dead follow him in new bodies and he arrives in the cloud and brings up the living saints to join him and the others in the final part of coming to the Earth. All these things happen after the trib and resurrection on the day Christ returns.

 

[rockytopva]

Still the same event. He leaves heaven, the resurrection happens so the dead follow him in new bodies and he arrives in the cloud and brings up the living saints to join him and the others in the final part of coming to the Earth. All these things happen after the trib and resurrection on the day Christ returns.​

Then Christ comes not as a thief... In times unexpected.​