sbc,
1. Born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remain with in him.
Literal interpretation would mean exactly that across the board.
Agree.
2. You used the word submitting the body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 says Paul prayed prayed they would be sanctified wholly and preserved blameless body, mind, and soul till the coming of Christ.
This doesn't happen automatically or without abiding in Christ always to the end and so his seed will remain in him to the end.
Consider two things...
1) a man hears something new (to Gentiles), different (to Jews)....oh, my hear that?? Uh, that makes sense, I can believe that.....now, how about that man saying, ya, ya, okay, I'll be baptized. What if he, back then, or like today went to an alter call, and yes, yes, I believe....and a month later, say some tragedy happens, and the man blames God, now hates, God, Now speaks against God....
Was that man saved and born again? No.
But, but, he said....I saw him become baptized...right? No, what you heard, was him saying he believed, according to his MIND. What you Saw, was a symbolic ceremony of water baptism.
HOW do you know this?
Because a man WHO IS saved and born of Gods SEED....confesses from his true feeling, his own natural spirit, in his heart...(not because it makes sense, or mommy wants him to be saved, or because it's good for his business, etc.... but solely because he truly believes in his heart.
There after, he can NEVER AGAIN Be Against God....thereafter, it is not by his own power to KEEP faithful to God, but is soley by Gods Power the man is KEPT faithful to God.
3. The Bible shows we can sin in 1 John 1:1-2. Not our sins only(Christians) but the sins of the whole world.
Well of course men can sin.
I never said otherwise.
The men, the World, the Earth, the Everything God has made "VERY GOOD", becomes CORRUPT.
4. Christians are born of God.
Jesus taught being born again as the way to be saved to Nicodemus which was future at the time of fulfillment because the Jews were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary Hebrews 11:40.
Christian is a generic term, GIVEN by men WHO DID NOT FOLLOW Jesus' teachings, About men WHO DID FOLLOW Jesus' teachings....WHO BTW, were Jewish men.
A Christian is one who is hearing, perhaps reading the Word of God....and believing what they are hearing (and or reading)...
It doesn't make them saved or born again.
It makes them followers of Gods Word.
As they continue to Follow, they are Given, measures of Faith from God.
IF they decided to Stop following / or believing, they LOSE FAITH, they are given no more measures of Faith from God.
If the continue to follow & believe their measure of Faith is increased FROM God.
IF they confess FROM TRUE thoughts in their heart, their belief IN GOD, TO GOD...
The whole ballgame CHANGES...
Their disbelief is forgiven, their sins are covered, their body given unto death, to God, their soul restored, their spirit quickened, they receive the HS.
NOW they are a saved and born again Christian.
Telling me Jewish men still obedient to Jewish LAW and believing in Jesus, could sin, yep I know. Jesus DID NOT DESTROY Jewish Law. He fulfilled it. Yet not all Jewish men THEN or NOW, believe it. They continue to follow their Law. Even now, like back then, there are Messianic Jews, who do both; believe in Christ as their Messiah and Savior, AND continue to follow their Jewish Laws.
What was a SIN for Jews according to Jewish Law, does not apply to me. I am not a Jew.
What applies to me is my subjection of Belief in their Jewish Messiah as my Lord and my God, Forgiver of my Sins, one who coverd my sins, Savior of my soul and quickening Spirit of my spirit, born OF Gods Seed, who IS Christ, to forever be Alive IN HIM and He in me.
5. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 says the Christian who would obviously be born again and saved is shown to be able to be destroyed if they defile their temple of their body which is the Holy Ghost.
IF you speak in general terms, you have a difficult time understanding.
1 Cor says nothing about Christians or Gentiles. Jews were selected to teach Jews.
Paul, a Jew and a Gentile was selected to teach primarily Gentiles, but taught both.
You have to "expressly" stick to the Word...
(Ie they were not Christians, they were primarily Jewsish men/students/learning something different.)
Then as scripture teaches DIVIDE the WORD of TRUTH.
If you are NOT a Jew, under Jewish Law, then don't presume or pretend you are.
If you are also a student learning, adopt what applies to you.
IF you ARE saved and BORN AGAIN, You sin no more, NO MORE are you ABLE to STAND AGAINST the Lord....EVER NOT FOREVER!
You have no Jewish requirement to go visit the wailing wall, beg God to forgive you for working on the Sabbath, or must get a dead body in the ground before sundown, or hold Jewish festivals.....no one told you to be FAITHFUL to men, believe in men....it is all about Believing IN the Lord or not.
And remember, the crowds were no different then than any Chruch today. Many can attend, listen, hear....and in every crowd there are people who don't believe, people who do believe, and people who believe AND are saved and born again.
So AGAIN....DIVIDE the Word of Truth. Pay attention to WHO the speaker in Scripture is speaking to...because often times it includes, the unbeliever, the believer who is NOT committed AND the believer who IS committed, saved and born again. Only you know your own standing....and IF you ARE saved and born again....WHY apply a scripture TO YOU, of a man who is not saved or born again?
If you are NOT a Jew, why apply their Law to you?
Their body is not the Holy Spirit.
Their body is flesh and blood.
The Holy Spirit dwells within their body.
THEY ~ are who in 1 Cor 3:16-17? Jews.
THEY ~ are being taught by WHO? Jews.
THEY are being taught according to what?
Their OLD Jewish LAW, understanding...
And a NEW Word of Jesus, not before known to them...Not the Knowledge, Not the Understanding of the Knowledge.
Men are always taught, by what the can understand. A tree is a tree, a man had seen it, felt it, understands it.
Men in the beginning were taught relationships, this is a man, a husband, a father, a head of the house. This is a woman, a wife, a mother, bears children, takes care of the house.
It was Moses who first called God a "father".
When Moses recognized, God is over all men, regardless of their position as father, head of the tribe, a people, or a field worker, lame or ignorant.
Men in Corinth were Hebrew/Jewish subject to Jewish Law, which was familiar to them, whether or not they practiced their religion, they knew the Laws of their Jewish heritage.
So of course, Jewish men, teaching Jewish men About Christ Jesus, taught them, about Christ, WHILE ALSO including their Jewish Laws.
We simply learn from their teachings....without pretending we are Jews, subject to their LAWS!
Rejecting God is a SIN, to a Jew, to a Gentile.
Rejecting Christ is a SIN, to a Gentile, who is rejecting the Word of God.
The Jews were being taught Christ Jesus, IS the Word of God, in the flesh.
Any Gentile who accepts that, and believes that...does not become subject to Jewish law, that calls umpteen things a SIN.
6. So a born again Christian can sin and lose their salvation.
No, a Jew who still subjects himself to Jewish Law and was learning about Jesus, could still sin according to the Jewish law.
7. Some use the doctrine of the spirit or soul of man saved only.
Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sinneth shall die. This was Old Testament Jews who though they were in the club and though God was unfair in allowing the gentile to be saved if they asked forgiveness for their sins and not fair if he didn't forgive them though they wouldn't repent.
They were under the Mosaic law, but God is no respect of persons.
Man is a body. His LIFE is His Blood.
A living soul, is life from God, that brings the body's life (blood) into being alive.
Every living man, has both. Natural life, ie their blood and Life from God, which is given them BY GODS BREATH, and called a living soul. It is also called spirit life, a spirit, because God is a Spirit, and it comes from God.
However IT IS NOT a man receiving the HS.
That is reserved for men who are Forgiven their SINS AGAINST GOD of their Disbelief in Him. (Also for corrupting their souls).
That is the imparting of Gods SEED, for their natural spirit to become born of God.
Gods SEED is spiritual. It doesn't birth body's, it births spirits.
In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira were saved and lied to the Holy Ghost and died.
What tells you they were saved?
Were they Jews, following Jewish law?
Does following Jewish law save a man?
Did they LIE to the HS?
Can a man WHO IS SAVED, LIE to the HS?
No. Why not? Because a LAW stops him?
No. Because man is strong willed and pleases God. No. Because a man who is SAVED, can NEVER stand against the Lord....BY GODS SPIRIT who KEEPS the man faithful.
No. THEY were NOT SAVED. They thought LIKE Lucifer did, that THEIR power of cunningness could supersede Gods knowledge and power. They were Wrong, and their error is a lesson for other men.
James was talking to Christians and said more or less if they were led away to the error and wickedness of their way and convert them he save a sinner from death and hid and cover a multitude of sins.
TRUE...key word....CONVERT!!
A converted man, is no longer subject to rely on his own power to TRY and stay faithful to God...HIS POWER does the KEEPING.
The spirit being saved only
No.
Only the spirit is QUICKENED, and LIFE shall never depart from it, nor be without God.
The soul is saved, By being Restored, to never again being corrupt or separated from God.
The body is CRUCIFIED, washed in Jesus' Blood, sanctified, reserved, kept with Christ to be redeemed and glorified.
The physical life (blood life of a living body), lives IN Christ....while it's physical body remains on earth, with a spiritual means of communication between the mans spirit and Gods Spirit...learning HOW TO SERVE God according to His Understanding, His Wisdom, of His Knowledge (WORD) in Scripture.
and this is why one born of God cannot sin
No. WHY, a man born of God can not SIN, IS BECAUSE of the SEED of God, which is Christ, which is the Power of God, which is the Truth of God named Jesus, forever remains IN...
WHAT?
THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN MADE WHOLE.
The Whole of man is converted BY GOD...
His body, soul, and spirit are ALL addressed,
Affected BY the Power of God. The man is given forever FULL faithfulness IN GOD.
Now about the BODY. IS IT GLORIFIED?
No. It is: Washed, Sanctified, Justified, Crucified.....Kept with Christ, and shall be redeemed and Glorified.
God doesn't WAIT to see our body Glorified....WE DO. We can NOT SEE a Glorified Body, with our natural eyes.
IF We had our body glorified NOW....we could NOT SERVE GOD teaching UNSAVED MEN...they wouldn't be able to SEE US!!
Like the same reason The Word of God, came in a BODY, prepared of God, IN the LIKENESS of men. If Jesus had come to earth to teach men IN HIS BODY....men would NOT have been able to SEE HIM. He showed men, being Himself the example of How it works and what to expect.
doesn't seem to be scriptural
1 John 3: 9 is not about conflict between your existing natural MIND and your born again spirit. It is simply telling you WHOSOEVER is born of Gods SEED, can not sin.
And that Truth stands by itself.
But you can also read in Scripture that the Word of God, Jesus, was born of God, which means, and scripture verifies, the Word of God came forth out from God.
1 John 3:9 says WHOSOEVER is born of God, CAN NOT SIN. Do you believe, Jesus was born of God? Scripture says so. Do you believe Jesus COULD SIN? Scripture says No.
So then IF a man becomes born of God, NEITHER can He sin NO MORE.
Not because he didn't sin...but because his sin IS FORGIVEN, COVERED, and can therefore sin NO MORE.
IF you wonder what a mans SIN IS COVERED WITH...it is the HS of God. His Spirit is PURE LIGHT. Sin is corruption and darkness, Because it is VOID of Light. When the HS covers a man sins, it is by HIS LIGHT.
Once Gods LIGHT, covers a mans sins, NO DARKNESS, NO SIN, can over power Gods LIGHT.
according to Roman's 8 because Paul war of the flesh vs Spirit.
So men struggle? So what? It is already known the natural MIND of man IS against God. It is already known, once a man is born of the spirit.....the man is SUPPOSED to be LISTENING TO, the Spirit of God, teaching the mans spirit....IN STEAD of the man listening to his MIND, to do tricky deceiving things, to speak lies, to do what is not glorifying to God.
Paul is not telling us news. He is telling us His own experience....and every man experiences....His MIND is not dead, nor did God make any changes to the mans MIND during conversion. God quickened the mans spirit, and teaches the mans spirit. It is the mans JOB to decides which he will LISTEN TO.
He has the tools to do either...listen to his spirit in his heart or listen to his mind.
THAT is the struggle. Minds can think of all kinds of things to do, fun, risky, exciting things....that DO NOT GLORIFY GOD.
A man who practices listening to his heart,
The mind begins to become adjusted to being subjected to the spirits thoughts.
And that is how a MIND LIKE CHRIST, becomes effected.
A man who still leans, sometimes, occasionally, or most of the time, continuing to listen to his MIND over his heart....
Does he become "unsaved" or "unborn" again? Does he stop believing in God? No and No. Is he sinning against God? No (unless you are a Jew, under Jewish Law).
Well then what is he doing? Serving himself.
And what is he NOT doing? Serving the Lord, thus he is not Glorifying Gods Name... AND?
AND? Among men he is seen as an unswerving Christian, so too in Heaven he will be among the least. Him with the least rewards and position.
Works do not SAVE a MAN. Good works simply Glorifies Gods Name before men.
And God rewards their efforts.
And ANY "so called good works" by an unsaved man....do not Glorify Gods Name.
And the man who do not do good Works to Glorify Gods Name, loses out on rewards....
And will often suffer the consequences inflicted on them by other men.
Their consequence, and the mans burden to bare.
Pauls Mind was no different than anyone else, he struggled at times WANTING to do things his Mind wanted to do, and his spirit was ... uh tsk, tsk, you sure you want the consequences....same for any man.
So, Paul relates...paraphrasing...geese...I am sick of this flesh mind...always tugging at me....it would be better be to done with this body and flesh mind and just be with the Lord. And if you study scripture, you would find, even the Lord says, what a difficult task was set before Paul to do.
If you live to the flesh you will die shows the spirit of man will die for the spirit and soul are related together and because it is not living to the Spirit of God.
My flesh body is still mortally alive, until the Lord comes to take my blood, and my body suffers mortal death, however, my body is dead, crucified with Christ, and yet alive as I live IN Christ. A mystery of God, yet devised by Him, to be acceptable to Him.
8. Man has to cooperate in faith and obedience with God to live free from sin.
God has the power for us to live sinless but man must cooperate in faith and obedience.
A mans ACCEPTABLE SERVICE TO GOD is to BELIEVE IN HIM, and offer their LIVING BODY AS A LIVING SACRIFICE TO the Lord.
IF the man does NOTHING ELSE, he is still saved and born again, and will be called the LEAST in heaven.
Of course the Lord would like every saved and born again man to TESTIFY of the Lord, speak His Word, show other men HOW TO become converted. WHY? Because every born again man becomes Gods Interitance!
If a man doesn't...He loses rewards. He doesn't lose his salvation. ONCE SAVED, ONCE BORN AGAIN...it is permanent..
If a man does nothing more..to serve the Lord....He will Never again Stand Againt the Lord in Disbelief.
9. I worked one time with complete sinless perfection people
No, you didn't. There are NO sin-LESS people, only people forgiven of their sins.
that said they were born again until one of them sinned that was obvious and they excommunicated from the church for a while when he was reconciled.
SAID they were born again....how to know?
IF they Never again DENIED the Lord! Period.
Churches routinely, call things SIN, that were called SINS, under Jewish Law, by Jewish men, teaching Jewish men.
Gentiles were never included in Jewish LAW, by the Law. Gentiles, simply did not believe in the Jewish God, know about Him, know Him. And when Gentiles accepted the Word of God, and believed IN GOD, IN HIS WORD...
They are forgiven. Period.
Jewis under the Law, continuously ask for forgiveness, according to violations of their Law, that pretty much calls everything a Sin, if it is something deemed wrong.
Don't bury the dead before sundown...a sin.
Mix fabrics, a sin. Don't cover your head in the Temple...a sin. Argue with your neighbor...a sin. Blah, blah, blah. Who subjected Gentiles to Jewish Law? No one.
So why do Gentiles pretend they are???
Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and that is why he is ever interceding for born again Christians if and when we come boldly before the throne of grace Hebrews 4:16.
Excellent for a man WHO IS NOT SAVED to KNOW, they have a ADVOCATE between them and God...(because you should know, God is a God of the LIVING, and natural unsaved men are naturally corrupt and dead to God).
Jesus is not INTERCEDING for born again men. Jesus is INTERCEDING for men who are believing, but not yet saved and born again.
A man who IS SAVED...goes THROUGH their "ADVOCATE" Jesus...and as he becomes born again...MEETS His God, Christ the Lord.
There after, the man has DIRECT ACCESS to His Lord GOD. John 14, I think, tells you, no more will Jesus ask the Father for you, You have direct communication, In Jesus' Name.
10. I believe one can be eternally secure if you want to be.
Agree.
I also believe one can change masters after being saved
Disagree. Gods Saving IS NOT DEPENDANT upon what a MAN DOES AFTER the man is SAVED. God knows all things. He knows a man from beginning to ending. Man can not TRICK GOD, and say.....oh I believe, I believe, save me, save me....and God do it, when the man doesn't truly mean it. God saves a man who truly believes and confess his true belief to GOD.....AND THEN GODS POWER KEEPS the man IN BELIEF, ie FAITH.
NOT the man himself.
A man who changes masters....NEVER had the Lord as His master. Such a man could be water baptized, even be a Pastor, attend church...and one day announce, He doesn't believe...and you can read accounts of such men....sorry, they were just going through the motions, and were not saved. They appeared righteous on the outside (like the Pharisees)...but their insides were wicked, standing Against God in their hearts...while their mouth was speaking for God....
and die in sin if he doesn't Repent and come back to God.
Only a man (and God) knows a mans own heart. A man can reject God until his deathbed, and then accept believeing and submit to God in true belief in his heart...and he shall be saved and born again. Did he do anything, any works to Glorify Gods name?
No. Thus he shall be among the least in heaven without a stock of rewards. Shall he receive any rewards? Yes, the crown of Life.
Was he water baptized? No. He was baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, just like the thief hanging next to Jesus, making a last minute confession.
Paul was persuaded nothing would separate him from the love of God but there are those who don't stay persuaded.
Paul was correct, that nothing would separate him from the Lord, Scripture tells us he had received the Spirit of God.
And those in belief, that were doing well, learning, following...were still suspectable to their own mind, and could fall away.
11. I know it is possible to live free without sinning for I have experienced many times and 1 week the whole time on a 7 day fast that I lived totally in the presence of God.
Who am I to say that are not nor consecrated people than I that are or get to that point even though most wouldn't admit to that.
As a whole it is a possibility and not a probability.
You were experiencing total communication with the Lord. But in reality you are in the presence of God 24-7 IF you are saved and born again. At any moment of any day, you can communicate with Him, because He is with you always and forever.
12. Sin among others things are not in God is true.
When ones gets born again he is completely sinless and made a new creature.
You can not become SINLESS. Sinless is one who has never had sin, and why that only applies to God. You were born in sin, have sinned. Thus you have SIN IN YOUR BODY, but it is covered with Gods Light...thus it is SEEN no more, and remembered no more, by God. And also should be forgotten by you, that you move forward, in thanks be to God, instead of asking Him to forgiven you when He already has. Now is your time to study scripture and ASK GOD for His Wisdom on the matter, and His Understanding on the matter.
As far as not continuing in sin for the seed remains in him has to be looked at according to the context of abiding faithfully to the end.
WHO must abide to "their" end? A man already made WHOLE? A man who WHOM God has given him Gods FULL faithfulness?
WHY? SHALL Gods Power in you fail you? No.
What about a Jew? Who doesn't believe in Christ the Messiah, but believes in God?
Isn't he STILL under the Law? Doesn't he have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness?
Has he been saved and born again? No.
Doesn't he continue to SHOW his own faithfulness to God, by obedience TO the LAW.
And YOU? Your faithfulness, is not by your effort. It is a gift from God, when YOU GAVE your LIFE (your body), as a living sacrifice TO GOD. Isn't God having Power over you LIFE sufficient AND Permanent..
You have no effort to ENDURE to the end of anything....it's already done. But Jews DO on their own have to endure, keeping in obedience to their Law.
Being born of God doth not commit sin is in the present tense not the aorist.
.
The Word of God, is not subject TO, our understanding, presence tense, past tense...
Gods Word is TRUE. When His Word says "IF" YOU DO THIS...."THAT" shall be so....
"IF" you give your life to GOD..."IF" you believe...and you DO IT, what He says IS SO!
So it doesn't say whosoever born of sin once and for all cannot commit sin. It means being born of God doth not commit sin when one is energetically abiding in him.
No. It says whosoever is born of God CANNOT SIN...AND again Remember Jesus was born of God. We are not born of God in the same WAY Jesus was...but read the text...
WHOSOEVER...and there is never a caveat...
Of "IF", or "UNLESS", or "UNTIL", or "ONLY IF"...
Born of God is not compatible with sin and many other things.
What many other things? Sin is NOT believing IN GOD and corrupting the soul He has given you. And He provides the Forgiveness. Jesus repeatedly says, BELIEVE, BELIEVE, BELIEVE...and be SAVED.
But as the seed has many weather atrocities that sometimes succumbs to it can keep growing.
The SEED is there forever, the spirit of man is birthed......
As long as we are growing and abiding and don't change masters the seed will always remain in us.
Absolutely the SEED can grow....mature, seeks Gods Wisdom and Gods Understanding, and does require effort of the man to read and ASK...communicate with God.
But absolutely NO, the man can NOT change Maters AFTER He Has Gods SEED. Unless you think Gods Power is not STRONG ENOUGHT TO KEEP YOUR LIFE, that YOU GAVE TO HIM TO KEEP.
We learn HOW to grow in Gods Wisdom and His Understanding.......but, but, but....read the Scriptures....It is about PLANTING THE SEED in what is GOOD "soil". Read the Scriptures, He gives you a new heart, Before He PLANTS HIS SEED in your Heart.
The "GROWING" is entirely up to the individual....God does not force a man to read, to ask Him for His Wisdom, His Understanding of Knowledge....He simply rewards you WHEN YOU DO. And doesn't reward you when you don't.
You covered a lot of ground, and I tried to be very specific. If you have any questions about what I have said, ask me.
God Bless you Jerry,
Happy New Year,
SBC