1 John 3: 9

[Sheep dog]

I don't accuse anyone of sin. They claim they are born again AND commit sin.

Perhaps 1 John 3:9 is missing from their Bibles, and why they claim to be born of God and still sinning.

God Bless,
SBC

You what? Your argument has no basis without accusation.

 

[Sheep dog]

The main point is not about confessing sin or saying you have no sin.

Deflecting.

The main point is 1 John 3:9.

God Bless,
SBC

Disagree, just read your posts.

 

[SBC]

Why is my post funny?

Because you accept what others think for me, say for me, and be being more direct in my own words is ignored and then simply sidetracked to becoming the topic.

God Bless
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
SBC

 

[SBC]

Several posters have quoted and referenced Scripture you just seem to ignore and continue as though nothing was posted. Why?

If I ask YOU, a Gentile a question ABOUT what YOU Believe concerning God...
and YOU give me a Jewish teaching, about behavior of men toward men....

What does that have to do with YOU or God, to which the question was asked?

When one FURTHER, in addition to the Jewish teaching, INCLUDE, Jewish Law regarding THEIR religious Laws....

What does that have to do with YOU?

Every time a Jew is teaching a Jew, and referencing .... to do this is good....to do this
IS A SIN....... a SIN ACCORDING TO WHAT?

Jewish Law!

Why, WHEN a Gentile is learning BEHAVIOR between MEN......do Gentiles NOT recognize, it is JEWS TEACHING JEWS? And SINS for Jews ARE "anything" they consider "wrong".

All of Jewish Laws are based on good behavior, and poor behavior.....toward God, toward other Men...taking care to follow their customs, their traditions, their Sabbaths, their lifestyles.....and ANYTHING not in Following those WAYS, according TO JEWISH LAWS.....IS...by Jews...CALLED A SIN.

A SIN of a Gentile, has NOTHING to Do with Jewish Laws, traditions, customs, lifestyle.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS NOT against Men, Animals, Things, Books, letters, etc.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS NOT BELIEVING IN GOD.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS corrupting his SOUL, by it being IN HIS CORRUPT natural born body.

THE Jews are simply the TEACHERS of HOW TO FOLLOW their LAWS.

THEIR Christ Messiah, IS THE TEACHER, for ALL MEN to hear, learn, read About and choose to BELIEVE IN GOD.....or not.

ANY man Gentile or Jew, can choose to BELIEVE in God and His Christ Messiah, His WORD, called the Truth, called by the name JESUS....or not.

Any man WHO, does so Believe, IS forgiven for HIS Disbelief....IS forgiven for corrupting His soul.....IS thereafter FREED FROM SIN, and His soul restored, His spirit quickened, and FOREVER WITH THE Lord His God....
FOREVER in standing WITH GOD....

He can NEVER AGAIN BE IN SIN Standing AGAINST GOD. He gave His Life to God, and forever GOD KEEPS that man unto Himself,
Giving that man FULL FAITH-FULLNESS to God ONLY, BY Gods Power.

So WHY do Gentiles, Learning from Scripture,
FROM JEWS, NOT KNOW, they can not SIN Against God?

WHY do Gentiles, Learing BENIFICIAL ways of behavior of men toward men.....ALSO, adopt
And pretend .... when a Jews is called committing a SIN....a Gentile thinks and testifies ... hey, they did what a Jew did in Scripture....oh, oh, ...they committed a SIN?

It is a SIN unto a JEW, BECAUSE IN THEIR LAW, it is a sin....

How is it a SIN for a Gentile....unless the Gentile thinks they are SUBJECT TO JEWISH LAW? AND so WHY are Gentiles pretending they ARE Subject to Jewish Laws?

We can LEARN from Jesus' OWN words what is acceptable. We can LEARN from Jewish texts, behaviors among men.....

WITHOUT pretending we are Jews, or that we are subject to Jewish Laws and customs.

Christ Jesus taught, very simply, BELIEVE in God, in His Word, with all your heart, confess to Him your belief, and He will FORGIVE all of your SINS AGAINST HIM...He WILL Save your Soul, wash your body in His blood, keep your life with Him, quicken your spirit, and you continue with your bodily life IN HIM, teaching others His Word.

And Jesus' commands....?
Love the Lord with all you heart, soul, spirit, mind.
Love other men as yourself.

Learn behaviors from the Jewish texts...
And if you harm another, fix it. Apologize, pay reparations, and forgive men who cause you a trespass or otherwise harm.
And after you fix it...YOU suffer the consequences...lean on Him for comfort, WHILE you suffer the consequences...and hopefully learn a lesson from your consequences.
Be helpful to others, speak his words, that others may choose to convert.
Be prepared to BE belittled, disparaged, perhaps even bodily killed.... FOR unashamedly Standing UP speaking the Lords Word of Truth. And lean on the Lord for comfort.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Why do you think I'd believe you'd accept anything the second time around?

You shouldn't.
Many men can be on the same path...however rarely are they all at the same distance.

And the distance simply means, how much knowledge and understanding they have gained. IOW - age, gender, race, etc. has nothing to do with it.

Individuals determine how much they hear, read, WHAT they read, WHO they hear, how often, to what extent.

Some are content with simply hearing once a week what someone else tells them, while others may read and study and dedicate very long periods to time and effort.

Everyone is different, so also is their distance.

I cannot know what you do, nor do you know my efforts. Same applies between others.
We can only have an indication.

I have some indication of (correction) another forum member.
Since He has revealed he is Catholic.
His belief is established as a Christian Catholic, being Christ centered, and additionally, he has an "earthly father", called the Pope, who hands down his understanding, by and through all the different Catholic Churches, Cardinals, Priests, Teachers, etc.

That already presents a barrier of sorts between he and I.

I do not believe the Pope is a mans earthly father. I believe our earthly father is Abraham, given the position by Promise of God Himself.
I do not believe Gods OWN Understanding of His OWN Word, comes from other men, but rather ONLY God Himself.
Other men can speak Gods Understanding, perhaps giving other men interest to SEEK Gods Understanding BY asking God themselves....or simply believe what they are told to believe.

ONLY GOD can truly give a man His Understanding of His Word.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

For those who do not understand the meaning of words.

Sin- Rebellion against God.
Sin- Disobedience to the Law.

Sinner - is anyone who has sinned -
It applies to earthly born men.

Forgiven Sin- Disobedience of the Law or Rebellion Against God, that God has Forgiven.

Has NO Sin - Someone who claims they were not born in sin, or claims they have never committed sin, or claims sin is not in their body, or doesn't believe there is such a thing as sin.

Confession - is one who has confessed their sins to God.

Someone who claims to be born of God;
Was born in sin.
Committed sin.
Confessed their sins to God.
Submits their Body as a living sacrifice to the Lord.
Was forgiven their sins by God.
Was given the Seed of God.
Cannot Again Sin.

Cannot What? Sin Again.
Cannot What? Rebel Against God.
Cannot What? Disobey the Law.

Disobey what Law?
Jewish Law?
Are you Jewish, subject TO Jewish Law?
Do you KNOW WHO you sacrificed your living body TO?
Do you KNOW WHAT He commanded of you?
Do you Still rebel Against Him?
Do men tell you it is absurd to Believe what Scripture says?
Or do you trust to believe the Word of God?

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. Born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remain with in him.
Literal interpretation would mean exactly that across the board.

2. You used the word submitting the body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 says Paul prayed prayed they would be sanctified wholly and preserved blameless body, mind, and soul till the coming of Christ.
This doesn't happen automatically or without abiding in Christ always to the end and so his seed will remain in him to the end.

3. The Bible shows we can sin in 1 John 1:1-2. Not our sins only(Christians) but the sins of the whole world.

4. Christians are born of God.
Jesus taught being born again as the way to be saved to Nicodemus which was future at the time of fulfillment because the Jews were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary Hebrews 11:40.

5. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 says the Christian who would obviously be born again and saved is shown to be able to be destroyed if they defile their temple of their body which is the Holy Ghost.

6. So a born again Christian can sin and lose their salvation.

7. Some use the doctrine of the spirit or soul of man saved only.
Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sinneth shall die. This was Old Testament Jews who though they were in the club and though God was unfair in allowing the gentile to be saved if they asked forgiveness for their sins and not fair if he didn't forgive them though they wouldn't repent.
They were under the Mosaic law, but God is no respect of persons.
In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira were saved and lied to the Holy Ghost and died.
James was talking to Christians and said more or less if they were led away to the error and wickedness of their way and convert them he save a sinner from death and hid and cover a multitude of sins.
The spirit being saved only and this is why one born of God cannot sin doesn't seem to be scriptural according to Roman's 8 because Paul war of the flesh vs Spirit. If you live to the flesh you will die shows the spirit of man will die for the spirit and soul are related together and because it is not living to the Spirit of God.

8. Man has to cooperate in faith and obedience with God to live free from sin.
God has the power for us to live sinless but man must cooperate in faith and obedience.

9. I worked one time with complete sinless perfection people that said they were born again until one of them sinned that was obvious and they excommunicated from the church for a while when he was reconciled.
Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and that is why he is ever interceding for born again Christians if and when we come boldly before the throne of grace Hebrews 4:16.

10. I believe one can be eternally secure if you want to be.
I also believe one can change masters after being saved and die in sin if he doesn't Repent and come back to God.
Paul was persuaded nothing would separate him from the love of God but there are those who don't stay persuaded.

11. I know it is possible to live free without sinning for I have experienced many times and 1 week the whole time on a 7 day fast that I lived totally in the presence of God.
Who am I to say that are not nor consecrated people than I that are or get to that point even though most wouldn't admit to that.
As a whole it is a possibility and not a probability.

12. Sin among others things are not in God is true.
When ones gets born again he is completely sinless and made a new creature.
As far as not continuing in sin for the seed remains in him has to be looked at according to the context of abiding faithfully to the end.
Being born of God doth not commit sin is in the present tense not the aorist.
So it doesn't say whosoever born of sin once and for all cannot commit sin. It means being born of God doth not commit sin when one is energetically abiding in him.
Born of God is not compatible with sin and many other things.
But as the seed has many weather atrocities that sometimes succumbs to it can keep growing. As long as we are growing and abiding and don't change masters the seed will always remain in us. Jerry Kelso

 

[SBC]

Disagree, just read your posts.

Certainly. Read my posts. Not once have I said I have no sin.

And read comments to me...

Well, if a man says he has no sin...he is a liar.

What's up with that?

What's up with that, is ANOTHER MAN, without breaking forum rules, is calling me a liar ?

For what? For saying I have no sin?

No. For claiming their UNDERSTANDING that they "THINK" I am claiming, to have no sin.

However, not once have I ever said that!

What I have claimed....AS THEY with their miminial understanding, and deaf to what I am saying....

I have said, I sinned, and appealed TO GOD....(not them)....confessed my Sin Against God to God....(not them)....and God Forgave me of my sins Against Him....(not them)...and God ..(not them)...has COVERED (not them) my sins against Him....God has forever FREED me ...(not them)...from Sin Against God...God KEEPS me with His Power...(not them)....from EVER Again SINNING AGAINST HIM...

Where in all that I have said does it appear of me saying I have no sin? It doesn't.

Nor have I at ANY TIME claimed to not have sin. My SIN is forgiven. My SIN is covered.
I can NEVER AGAIN SIN. The Lords Power KEEPS ME FREE from Sin. The Lords Power has GIVEN me FULL faithfulness IN HIM ONLY.

So, ya for several pages, OTHERS have grabbed a scripture, that DOES NOT APPLY TO ME, but that gives them a way (without breaking forum rules) to call me a liar, then
Complain, I am so rude, when I am fully aware of what they have just conivingly accomplished.

Yes, I laugh, because with men, their trickery is accomplished, (tee hee, called you a liar, with scripture, didn't break forum rules, na, na, na, and others jump on board, ha, ha ha)....but with God, it is a fail.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[mark kennedy]

You shouldn't.
Many men can be on the same path...however rarely are they all at the same distance.

And the distance simply means, how much knowledge and understanding they have gained. IOW - age, gender, race, etc. has nothing to do with it.

Individuals determine how much they hear, read, WHAT they read, WHO they hear, how often, to what extent.

Some are content with simply hearing once a week what someone else tells them, while others may read and study and dedicate very long periods to time and effort.

Everyone is different, so also is their distance.

I cannot know what you do, nor do you know my efforts. Same applies between others.
We can only have an indication.

I have some indication of Mark Kennedy...
Since He has revealed he is Catholic.
His belief is established as a Christian Catholic, being Christ centered, and additionally, he has an "earthly father", called the Pope, who hands down his understanding, by and through all the different Catholic Churches, Cardinals, Priests, Teachers, etc.

That already presents a barrier of sorts between he and I.

I do not believe the Pope is a mans earthly father. I believe our earthly father is Abraham, given the position by Promise of God Himself.
I do not believe Gods OWN Understanding of His OWN Word, comes from other men, but rather ONLY God Himself.
Other men can speak Gods Understanding, perhaps giving other men interest to SEEK Gods Understanding BY asking God themselves....or simply believe what they are told to believe.

ONLY GOD can truly give a man His Understanding of His Word.

God Bless,
SBC

Your pushing some kind of perfectionist position post conversion, with no reference to grace, the gospel or even a simple exposition of your key proof text. Your not the only one on here that does that, it's a affront to the gospel and the Scriptures. Then you make this outrageous statement that I'm Catholic, absolutely no basis for that statement just like everything else your saying. I'm a Calvinist and an old school evangelical. I do not submit to Popes or the Catholic church, I consider them far too legalistic and devotions to Mary to be borderline heresy. Your way off base here and this isn't the first time I have seen someone malign Christian confession of sin, it may well be the last. Someone told me I'm much nicer when I'm not involved in these dreadful debates. I spent a great deal of time on Creationism so contentious debates are second nature to me. I'm reconsidering all that now.

 

[mark kennedy]

Essentially he's declared all Christians wicked liars.

I've seen a lot of this, I generally avoid this sort of thing in a theological context. He is posing a rhetorical question, after conversion can a believer sin. You have two choices, abandon Christian confession of sin or fall into the fallacious circular logic of the flawed propositional logic he is using. Its an old trick and not a cleaver one. When he persists it makes biblical and theological discussion impossible, which appears to be the whole point.

 

[mark kennedy]

sbc,

1. Born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remain with in him.
Literal interpretation would mean exactly that across the board.

2. You used the word submitting the body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 says Paul prayed prayed they would be sanctified wholly and preserved blameless body, mind, and soul till the coming of Christ.
This doesn't happen automatically or without abiding in Christ always to the end and so his seed will remain in him to the end.

3. The Bible shows we can sin in 1 John 1:1-2. Not our sins only(Christians) but the sins of the whole world.

4. Christians are born of God.
Jesus taught being born again as the way to be saved to Nicodemus which was future at the time of fulfillment because the Jews were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary Hebrews 11:40.

5. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 says the Christian who would obviously be born again and saved is shown to be able to be destroyed if they defile their temple of their body which is the Holy Ghost.

6. So a born again Christian can sin and lose their salvation.

7. Some use the doctrine of the spirit or soul of man saved only.
Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sinneth shall die. This was Old Testament Jews who though they were in the club and though God was unfair in allowing the gentile to be saved if they asked forgiveness for their sins and not fair if he didn't forgive them though they wouldn't repent.
They were under the Mosaic law, but God is no respect of persons.
In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira were saved and lied to the Holy Ghost and died.
James was talking to Christians and said more or less if they were led away to the error and wickedness of their way and convert them he save a sinner from death and hid and cover a multitude of sins.
The spirit being saved only and this is why one born of God cannot sin doesn't seem to be scriptural according to Roman's 8 because Paul war of the flesh vs Spirit. If you live to the flesh you will die shows the spirit of man will die for the spirit and soul are related together and because it is not living to the Spirit of God.

8. Man has to cooperate in faith and obedience with God to live free from sin.
God has the power for us to live sinless but man must cooperate in faith and obedience.

9. I worked one time with complete sinless perfection people that said they were born again until one of them sinned that was obvious and they excommunicated from the church for a while when he was reconciled.
Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and that is why he is ever interceding for born again Christians if and when we come boldly before the throne of grace Hebrews 4:16.

10. I believe one can be eternally secure if you want to be.
I also believe one can change masters after being saved and die in sin if he doesn't Repent and come back to God.
Paul was persuaded nothing would separate him from the love of God but there are those who don't stay persuaded.

11. I know it is possible to live free without sinning for I have experienced many times and 1 week the whole time on a 7 day fast that I lived totally in the presence of God.
Who am I to say that are not nor consecrated people than I that are or get to that point even though most wouldn't admit to that.
As a whole it is a possibility and not a probability.

12. Sin among others things are not in God is true.
When ones gets born again he is completely sinless and made a new creature.
As far as not continuing in sin for the seed remains in him has to be looked at according to the context of abiding faithfully to the end.
Being born of God doth not commit sin is in the present tense not the aorist.
So it doesn't say whosoever born of sin once and for all cannot commit sin. It means being born of God doth not commit sin when one is energetically abiding in him.
Born of God is not compatible with sin and many other things.
But as the seed has many weather atrocities that sometimes succumbs to it can keep growing. As long as we are growing and abiding and don't change masters the seed will always remain in us. Jerry Kelso

About the passage in James 2, when he says can such a faith save you. He is dealing with the same problem Paul was in 1 Cor. 11, namely the mistreatment of the poor by the rich. John is making a similar point, not that we will ever get to it, the mark of Christian conversion is love for fellow believers. Paul speaking to the poor being deprived in the love feasts says some of you are sick and some if you sleep. In other words believers do suffer judgment for their sin, as Anninias and Saphiria found out. Hebrews tells us when we are disciplined God is dealing with us as sons and God can destroy the body to save the soul.

 

[mark kennedy]

Certainly. Read my posts. Not once have I said I have no sin.

And read comments to me...

Well, if a man says he has no sin...he is a liar.

What's up with that?

What's up with that, is ANOTHER MAN, without breaking forum rules, is calling me a liar ?

For what? For saying I have no sin?

No. For claiming their UNDERSTANDING that they "THINK" I am claiming, to have no sin.

However, not once have I ever said that!

What I have claimed....AS THEY with their miminial understanding, and deaf to what I am saying....

I have said, I sinned, and appealed TO GOD....(not them)....confessed my Sin Against God to God....(not them)....and God Forgave me of my sins Against Him....(not them)...and God ..(not them)...has COVERED (not them) my sins against Him....God has forever FREED me ...(not them)...from Sin Against God...God KEEPS me with His Power...(not them)....from EVER Again SINNING AGAINST HIM...

Where in all that I have said does it appear of me saying I have no sin? It doesn't.

Nor have I at ANY TIME claimed to not have sin. My SIN is forgiven. My SIN is covered.
I can NEVER AGAIN SIN. The Lords Power KEEPS ME FREE from Sin. The Lords Power has GIVEN me FULL faithfulness IN HIM ONLY.

So, ya for several pages, OTHERS have grabbed a scripture, that DOES NOT APPLY TO ME, but that gives them a way (without breaking forum rules) to call me a liar, then
Complain, I am so rude, when I am fully aware of what they have just conivingly accomplished.

Yes, I laugh, because with men, their trickery is accomplished, (tee hee, called you a liar, with scripture, didn't break forum rules, na, na, na, and others jump on board, ha, ha ha)....but with God, it is a fail.

God Bless,
SBC

So you can never again sin but your not claiming that you are without sin? That's a direct contradiction, the rambling discussion of sin being against God and forgiveness being from God is pedantic at best, no one is arguing otherwise. John is clear that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us, saying I cannot sin is the same thing so let's not bother with semantics here. In addition John says if you do not love fellow believers, your outside the faith. All things should be done unto edification and attcking belivers for confessing that they are sinners is not building them up ineir faith.

In only responded here because I thought you understood the difference between the old man and the new nature, since that single post you have demonstrated you won't so much as acknowledge it. I must have fallen for a bait and switch, guess it isn't the first time.

It's been said that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. Christians will not abandon their core conviction and confession that they are sinners. If you never commit another offense you still have unredeemed flesh, saying I cannot sin and I have no sin is the same thing. Now if you wanted to argue that the new nature is righteous and without blemish or spot no one would argue. But you dont, thus the conversation spirals ever downward into fallacious circular logic. It would not be so bad if it were not all you intend to say on the matter.

 

[SBC]

sbc,

1. Born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remain with in him.
Literal interpretation would mean exactly that across the board.

Agree.

2. You used the word submitting the body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 says Paul prayed prayed they would be sanctified wholly and preserved blameless body, mind, and soul till the coming of Christ.
This doesn't happen automatically or without abiding in Christ always to the end and so his seed will remain in him to the end.

Consider two things...
1) a man hears something new (to Gentiles), different (to Jews)....oh, my hear that?? Uh, that makes sense, I can believe that.....now, how about that man saying, ya, ya, okay, I'll be baptized. What if he, back then, or like today went to an alter call, and yes, yes, I believe....and a month later, say some tragedy happens, and the man blames God, now hates, God, Now speaks against God....
Was that man saved and born again? No.
But, but, he said....I saw him become baptized...right? No, what you heard, was him saying he believed, according to his MIND. What you Saw, was a symbolic ceremony of water baptism.
HOW do you know this?
Because a man WHO IS saved and born of Gods SEED....confesses from his true feeling, his own natural spirit, in his heart...(not because it makes sense, or mommy wants him to be saved, or because it's good for his business, etc.... but solely because he truly believes in his heart.
There after, he can NEVER AGAIN Be Against God....thereafter, it is not by his own power to KEEP faithful to God, but is soley by Gods Power the man is KEPT faithful to God.

3. The Bible shows we can sin in 1 John 1:1-2. Not our sins only(Christians) but the sins of the whole world.

Well of course men can sin.
I never said otherwise.
The men, the World, the Earth, the Everything God has made "VERY GOOD", becomes CORRUPT.

4. Christians are born of God.
Jesus taught being born again as the way to be saved to Nicodemus which was future at the time of fulfillment because the Jews were not saved to the uttermost until Calvary Hebrews 11:40.

Christian is a generic term, GIVEN by men WHO DID NOT FOLLOW Jesus' teachings, About men WHO DID FOLLOW Jesus' teachings....WHO BTW, were Jewish men.

A Christian is one who is hearing, perhaps reading the Word of God....and believing what they are hearing (and or reading)...

It doesn't make them saved or born again.
It makes them followers of Gods Word.
As they continue to Follow, they are Given, measures of Faith from God.
IF they decided to Stop following / or believing, they LOSE FAITH, they are given no more measures of Faith from God.
If the continue to follow & believe their measure of Faith is increased FROM God.
IF they confess FROM TRUE thoughts in their heart, their belief IN GOD, TO GOD...
The whole ballgame CHANGES...
Their disbelief is forgiven, their sins are covered, their body given unto death, to God, their soul restored, their spirit quickened, they receive the HS.
NOW they are a saved and born again Christian.

Telling me Jewish men still obedient to Jewish LAW and believing in Jesus, could sin, yep I know. Jesus DID NOT DESTROY Jewish Law. He fulfilled it. Yet not all Jewish men THEN or NOW, believe it. They continue to follow their Law. Even now, like back then, there are Messianic Jews, who do both; believe in Christ as their Messiah and Savior, AND continue to follow their Jewish Laws.

What was a SIN for Jews according to Jewish Law, does not apply to me. I am not a Jew.
What applies to me is my subjection of Belief in their Jewish Messiah as my Lord and my God, Forgiver of my Sins, one who coverd my sins, Savior of my soul and quickening Spirit of my spirit, born OF Gods Seed, who IS Christ, to forever be Alive IN HIM and He in me.

5. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 says the Christian who would obviously be born again and saved is shown to be able to be destroyed if they defile their temple of their body which is the Holy Ghost.

IF you speak in general terms, you have a difficult time understanding.
1 Cor says nothing about Christians or Gentiles. Jews were selected to teach Jews.
Paul, a Jew and a Gentile was selected to teach primarily Gentiles, but taught both.
You have to "expressly" stick to the Word...
(Ie they were not Christians, they were primarily Jewsish men/students/learning something different.)
Then as scripture teaches DIVIDE the WORD of TRUTH.
If you are NOT a Jew, under Jewish Law, then don't presume or pretend you are.
If you are also a student learning, adopt what applies to you.
IF you ARE saved and BORN AGAIN, You sin no more, NO MORE are you ABLE to STAND AGAINST the Lord....EVER NOT FOREVER!

You have no Jewish requirement to go visit the wailing wall, beg God to forgive you for working on the Sabbath, or must get a dead body in the ground before sundown, or hold Jewish festivals.....no one told you to be FAITHFUL to men, believe in men....it is all about Believing IN the Lord or not.

And remember, the crowds were no different then than any Chruch today. Many can attend, listen, hear....and in every crowd there are people who don't believe, people who do believe, and people who believe AND are saved and born again.

So AGAIN....DIVIDE the Word of Truth. Pay attention to WHO the speaker in Scripture is speaking to...because often times it includes, the unbeliever, the believer who is NOT committed AND the believer who IS committed, saved and born again. Only you know your own standing....and IF you ARE saved and born again....WHY apply a scripture TO YOU, of a man who is not saved or born again?

If you are NOT a Jew, why apply their Law to you?


Their body is not the Holy Spirit.
Their body is flesh and blood.
The Holy Spirit dwells within their body.

THEY ~ are who in 1 Cor 3:16-17? Jews.
THEY ~ are being taught by WHO? Jews.

THEY are being taught according to what?
Their OLD Jewish LAW, understanding...
And a NEW Word of Jesus, not before known to them...Not the Knowledge, Not the Understanding of the Knowledge.

Men are always taught, by what the can understand. A tree is a tree, a man had seen it, felt it, understands it.

Men in the beginning were taught relationships, this is a man, a husband, a father, a head of the house. This is a woman, a wife, a mother, bears children, takes care of the house.

It was Moses who first called God a "father".
When Moses recognized, God is over all men, regardless of their position as father, head of the tribe, a people, or a field worker, lame or ignorant.

Men in Corinth were Hebrew/Jewish subject to Jewish Law, which was familiar to them, whether or not they practiced their religion, they knew the Laws of their Jewish heritage.

So of course, Jewish men, teaching Jewish men About Christ Jesus, taught them, about Christ, WHILE ALSO including their Jewish Laws.

We simply learn from their teachings....without pretending we are Jews, subject to their LAWS!

Rejecting God is a SIN, to a Jew, to a Gentile.
Rejecting Christ is a SIN, to a Gentile, who is rejecting the Word of God.

The Jews were being taught Christ Jesus, IS the Word of God, in the flesh.
Any Gentile who accepts that, and believes that...does not become subject to Jewish law, that calls umpteen things a SIN.

6. So a born again Christian can sin and lose their salvation.

No, a Jew who still subjects himself to Jewish Law and was learning about Jesus, could still sin according to the Jewish law.

7. Some use the doctrine of the spirit or soul of man saved only.
Ezekiel 18:4 says the soul that sinneth shall die. This was Old Testament Jews who though they were in the club and though God was unfair in allowing the gentile to be saved if they asked forgiveness for their sins and not fair if he didn't forgive them though they wouldn't repent.
They were under the Mosaic law, but God is no respect of persons.

Man is a body. His LIFE is His Blood.
A living soul, is life from God, that brings the body's life (blood) into being alive.

Every living man, has both. Natural life, ie their blood and Life from God, which is given them BY GODS BREATH, and called a living soul. It is also called spirit life, a spirit, because God is a Spirit, and it comes from God.

However IT IS NOT a man receiving the HS.
That is reserved for men who are Forgiven their SINS AGAINST GOD of their Disbelief in Him. (Also for corrupting their souls).
That is the imparting of Gods SEED, for their natural spirit to become born of God.
Gods SEED is spiritual. It doesn't birth body's, it births spirits.

In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira were saved and lied to the Holy Ghost and died.

What tells you they were saved?
Were they Jews, following Jewish law?
Does following Jewish law save a man?
Did they LIE to the HS?
Can a man WHO IS SAVED, LIE to the HS?
No. Why not? Because a LAW stops him?
No. Because man is strong willed and pleases God. No. Because a man who is SAVED, can NEVER stand against the Lord....BY GODS SPIRIT who KEEPS the man faithful.
No. THEY were NOT SAVED. They thought LIKE Lucifer did, that THEIR power of cunningness could supersede Gods knowledge and power. They were Wrong, and their error is a lesson for other men.

James was talking to Christians and said more or less if they were led away to the error and wickedness of their way and convert them he save a sinner from death and hid and cover a multitude of sins.

TRUE...key word....CONVERT!!
A converted man, is no longer subject to rely on his own power to TRY and stay faithful to God...HIS POWER does the KEEPING.

The spirit being saved only

No.
Only the spirit is QUICKENED, and LIFE shall never depart from it, nor be without God.
The soul is saved, By being Restored, to never again being corrupt or separated from God.
The body is CRUCIFIED, washed in Jesus' Blood, sanctified, reserved, kept with Christ to be redeemed and glorified.
The physical life (blood life of a living body), lives IN Christ....while it's physical body remains on earth, with a spiritual means of communication between the mans spirit and Gods Spirit...learning HOW TO SERVE God according to His Understanding, His Wisdom, of His Knowledge (WORD) in Scripture.

and this is why one born of God cannot sin

No. WHY, a man born of God can not SIN, IS BECAUSE of the SEED of God, which is Christ, which is the Power of God, which is the Truth of God named Jesus, forever remains IN...
WHAT?

THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN MADE WHOLE.
The Whole of man is converted BY GOD...
His body, soul, and spirit are ALL addressed,
Affected BY the Power of God. The man is given forever FULL faithfulness IN GOD.

Now about the BODY. IS IT GLORIFIED?
No. It is: Washed, Sanctified, Justified, Crucified.....Kept with Christ, and shall be redeemed and Glorified.

God doesn't WAIT to see our body Glorified....WE DO. We can NOT SEE a Glorified Body, with our natural eyes.
IF We had our body glorified NOW....we could NOT SERVE GOD teaching UNSAVED MEN...they wouldn't be able to SEE US!!

Like the same reason The Word of God, came in a BODY, prepared of God, IN the LIKENESS of men. If Jesus had come to earth to teach men IN HIS BODY....men would NOT have been able to SEE HIM. He showed men, being Himself the example of How it works and what to expect.

doesn't seem to be scriptural

1 John 3: 9 is not about conflict between your existing natural MIND and your born again spirit. It is simply telling you WHOSOEVER is born of Gods SEED, can not sin.

And that Truth stands by itself.
But you can also read in Scripture that the Word of God, Jesus, was born of God, which means, and scripture verifies, the Word of God came forth out from God.

1 John 3:9 says WHOSOEVER is born of God, CAN NOT SIN. Do you believe, Jesus was born of God? Scripture says so. Do you believe Jesus COULD SIN? Scripture says No.
So then IF a man becomes born of God, NEITHER can He sin NO MORE.
Not because he didn't sin...but because his sin IS FORGIVEN, COVERED, and can therefore sin NO MORE.

IF you wonder what a mans SIN IS COVERED WITH...it is the HS of God. His Spirit is PURE LIGHT. Sin is corruption and darkness, Because it is VOID of Light. When the HS covers a man sins, it is by HIS LIGHT.
Once Gods LIGHT, covers a mans sins, NO DARKNESS, NO SIN, can over power Gods LIGHT.

according to Roman's 8 because Paul war of the flesh vs Spirit.

So men struggle? So what? It is already known the natural MIND of man IS against God. It is already known, once a man is born of the spirit.....the man is SUPPOSED to be LISTENING TO, the Spirit of God, teaching the mans spirit....IN STEAD of the man listening to his MIND, to do tricky deceiving things, to speak lies, to do what is not glorifying to God.

Paul is not telling us news. He is telling us His own experience....and every man experiences....His MIND is not dead, nor did God make any changes to the mans MIND during conversion. God quickened the mans spirit, and teaches the mans spirit. It is the mans JOB to decides which he will LISTEN TO.
He has the tools to do either...listen to his spirit in his heart or listen to his mind.

THAT is the struggle. Minds can think of all kinds of things to do, fun, risky, exciting things....that DO NOT GLORIFY GOD.

A man who practices listening to his heart,
The mind begins to become adjusted to being subjected to the spirits thoughts.
And that is how a MIND LIKE CHRIST, becomes effected.

A man who still leans, sometimes, occasionally, or most of the time, continuing to listen to his MIND over his heart....
Does he become "unsaved" or "unborn" again? Does he stop believing in God? No and No. Is he sinning against God? No (unless you are a Jew, under Jewish Law).
Well then what is he doing? Serving himself.
And what is he NOT doing? Serving the Lord, thus he is not Glorifying Gods Name... AND?

AND? Among men he is seen as an unswerving Christian, so too in Heaven he will be among the least. Him with the least rewards and position.

Works do not SAVE a MAN. Good works simply Glorifies Gods Name before men.
And God rewards their efforts.
And ANY "so called good works" by an unsaved man....do not Glorify Gods Name.

And the man who do not do good Works to Glorify Gods Name, loses out on rewards....
And will often suffer the consequences inflicted on them by other men.
Their consequence, and the mans burden to bare.

Pauls Mind was no different than anyone else, he struggled at times WANTING to do things his Mind wanted to do, and his spirit was ... uh tsk, tsk, you sure you want the consequences....same for any man.
So, Paul relates...paraphrasing...geese...I am sick of this flesh mind...always tugging at me....it would be better be to done with this body and flesh mind and just be with the Lord. And if you study scripture, you would find, even the Lord says, what a difficult task was set before Paul to do.

If you live to the flesh you will die shows the spirit of man will die for the spirit and soul are related together and because it is not living to the Spirit of God.

My flesh body is still mortally alive, until the Lord comes to take my blood, and my body suffers mortal death, however, my body is dead, crucified with Christ, and yet alive as I live IN Christ. A mystery of God, yet devised by Him, to be acceptable to Him.

8. Man has to cooperate in faith and obedience with God to live free from sin.
God has the power for us to live sinless but man must cooperate in faith and obedience.

A mans ACCEPTABLE SERVICE TO GOD is to BELIEVE IN HIM, and offer their LIVING BODY AS A LIVING SACRIFICE TO the Lord.

IF the man does NOTHING ELSE, he is still saved and born again, and will be called the LEAST in heaven.

Of course the Lord would like every saved and born again man to TESTIFY of the Lord, speak His Word, show other men HOW TO become converted. WHY? Because every born again man becomes Gods Interitance!

If a man doesn't...He loses rewards. He doesn't lose his salvation. ONCE SAVED, ONCE BORN AGAIN...it is permanent..
If a man does nothing more..to serve the Lord....He will Never again Stand Againt the Lord in Disbelief.

9. I worked one time with complete sinless perfection people

No, you didn't. There are NO sin-LESS people, only people forgiven of their sins.

that said they were born again until one of them sinned that was obvious and they excommunicated from the church for a while when he was reconciled.

SAID they were born again....how to know?
IF they Never again DENIED the Lord! Period.

Churches routinely, call things SIN, that were called SINS, under Jewish Law, by Jewish men, teaching Jewish men.
Gentiles were never included in Jewish LAW, by the Law. Gentiles, simply did not believe in the Jewish God, know about Him, know Him. And when Gentiles accepted the Word of God, and believed IN GOD, IN HIS WORD...
They are forgiven. Period.
Jewis under the Law, continuously ask for forgiveness, according to violations of their Law, that pretty much calls everything a Sin, if it is something deemed wrong.
Don't bury the dead before sundown...a sin.
Mix fabrics, a sin. Don't cover your head in the Temple...a sin. Argue with your neighbor...a sin. Blah, blah, blah. Who subjected Gentiles to Jewish Law? No one.
So why do Gentiles pretend they are???

Jesus has the ministry of reconciliation and that is why he is ever interceding for born again Christians if and when we come boldly before the throne of grace Hebrews 4:16.

Excellent for a man WHO IS NOT SAVED to KNOW, they have a ADVOCATE between them and God...(because you should know, God is a God of the LIVING, and natural unsaved men are naturally corrupt and dead to God).
Jesus is not INTERCEDING for born again men. Jesus is INTERCEDING for men who are believing, but not yet saved and born again.
A man who IS SAVED...goes THROUGH their "ADVOCATE" Jesus...and as he becomes born again...MEETS His God, Christ the Lord.

There after, the man has DIRECT ACCESS to His Lord GOD. John 14, I think, tells you, no more will Jesus ask the Father for you, You have direct communication, In Jesus' Name.

10. I believe one can be eternally secure if you want to be.

Agree.

I also believe one can change masters after being saved

Disagree. Gods Saving IS NOT DEPENDANT upon what a MAN DOES AFTER the man is SAVED. God knows all things. He knows a man from beginning to ending. Man can not TRICK GOD, and say.....oh I believe, I believe, save me, save me....and God do it, when the man doesn't truly mean it. God saves a man who truly believes and confess his true belief to GOD.....AND THEN GODS POWER KEEPS the man IN BELIEF, ie FAITH.
NOT the man himself.

A man who changes masters....NEVER had the Lord as His master. Such a man could be water baptized, even be a Pastor, attend church...and one day announce, He doesn't believe...and you can read accounts of such men....sorry, they were just going through the motions, and were not saved. They appeared righteous on the outside (like the Pharisees)...but their insides were wicked, standing Against God in their hearts...while their mouth was speaking for God....

and die in sin if he doesn't Repent and come back to God.

Only a man (and God) knows a mans own heart. A man can reject God until his deathbed, and then accept believeing and submit to God in true belief in his heart...and he shall be saved and born again. Did he do anything, any works to Glorify Gods name?
No. Thus he shall be among the least in heaven without a stock of rewards. Shall he receive any rewards? Yes, the crown of Life.
Was he water baptized? No. He was baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, just like the thief hanging next to Jesus, making a last minute confession.

Paul was persuaded nothing would separate him from the love of God but there are those who don't stay persuaded.

Paul was correct, that nothing would separate him from the Lord, Scripture tells us he had received the Spirit of God.
And those in belief, that were doing well, learning, following...were still suspectable to their own mind, and could fall away.

11. I know it is possible to live free without sinning for I have experienced many times and 1 week the whole time on a 7 day fast that I lived totally in the presence of God.
Who am I to say that are not nor consecrated people than I that are or get to that point even though most wouldn't admit to that.
As a whole it is a possibility and not a probability.

You were experiencing total communication with the Lord. But in reality you are in the presence of God 24-7 IF you are saved and born again. At any moment of any day, you can communicate with Him, because He is with you always and forever.

12. Sin among others things are not in God is true.
When ones gets born again he is completely sinless and made a new creature.

You can not become SINLESS. Sinless is one who has never had sin, and why that only applies to God. You were born in sin, have sinned. Thus you have SIN IN YOUR BODY, but it is covered with Gods Light...thus it is SEEN no more, and remembered no more, by God. And also should be forgotten by you, that you move forward, in thanks be to God, instead of asking Him to forgiven you when He already has. Now is your time to study scripture and ASK GOD for His Wisdom on the matter, and His Understanding on the matter.

As far as not continuing in sin for the seed remains in him has to be looked at according to the context of abiding faithfully to the end.

WHO must abide to "their" end? A man already made WHOLE? A man who WHOM God has given him Gods FULL faithfulness?
WHY? SHALL Gods Power in you fail you? No.
What about a Jew? Who doesn't believe in Christ the Messiah, but believes in God?
Isn't he STILL under the Law? Doesn't he have to repeatedly ask for forgiveness?
Has he been saved and born again? No.
Doesn't he continue to SHOW his own faithfulness to God, by obedience TO the LAW.
And YOU? Your faithfulness, is not by your effort. It is a gift from God, when YOU GAVE your LIFE (your body), as a living sacrifice TO GOD. Isn't God having Power over you LIFE sufficient AND Permanent..
You have no effort to ENDURE to the end of anything....it's already done. But Jews DO on their own have to endure, keeping in obedience to their Law.

Being born of God doth not commit sin is in the present tense not the aorist.

.

The Word of God, is not subject TO, our understanding, presence tense, past tense...
Gods Word is TRUE. When His Word says "IF" YOU DO THIS...."THAT" shall be so....
"IF" you give your life to GOD..."IF" you believe...and you DO IT, what He says IS SO!

So it doesn't say whosoever born of sin once and for all cannot commit sin. It means being born of God doth not commit sin when one is energetically abiding in him.

No. It says whosoever is born of God CANNOT SIN...AND again Remember Jesus was born of God. We are not born of God in the same WAY Jesus was...but read the text...
WHOSOEVER...and there is never a caveat...
Of "IF", or "UNLESS", or "UNTIL", or "ONLY IF"...

Born of God is not compatible with sin and many other things.

What many other things? Sin is NOT believing IN GOD and corrupting the soul He has given you. And He provides the Forgiveness. Jesus repeatedly says, BELIEVE, BELIEVE, BELIEVE...and be SAVED.

But as the seed has many weather atrocities that sometimes succumbs to it can keep growing.

The SEED is there forever, the spirit of man is birthed......

As long as we are growing and abiding and don't change masters the seed will always remain in us.

Absolutely the SEED can grow....mature, seeks Gods Wisdom and Gods Understanding, and does require effort of the man to read and ASK...communicate with God.

But absolutely NO, the man can NOT change Maters AFTER He Has Gods SEED. Unless you think Gods Power is not STRONG ENOUGHT TO KEEP YOUR LIFE, that YOU GAVE TO HIM TO KEEP.

We learn HOW to grow in Gods Wisdom and His Understanding.......but, but, but....read the Scriptures....It is about PLANTING THE SEED in what is GOOD "soil". Read the Scriptures, He gives you a new heart, Before He PLANTS HIS SEED in your Heart.
The "GROWING" is entirely up to the individual....God does not force a man to read, to ask Him for His Wisdom, His Understanding of Knowledge....He simply rewards you WHEN YOU DO. And doesn't reward you when you don't.

You covered a lot of ground, and I tried to be very specific. If you have any questions about what I have said, ask me.

God Bless you Jerry,
Happy New Year,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Your pushing some kind of perfectionist position post conversion, with no reference to grace, the gospel or even a simple exposition of your key proof text. Your not the only one on here that does that, it's a affront to the gospel and the Scriptures. Then you make this outrageous statement that I'm Catholic,

I apologize for that, having you mixed up with another poster. I live in the deep woods, and only have internet on my phone, and often lose my post if I switch pages, thus I did not switch pages and verify.
So again, I will go back and delete your name. Sorry.

absolutely no basis for that statement just like everything else your saying.

What ever!

[/QUOTE]I'm a Calvinist and an old school evangelical. I do not submit to Popes or the Catholic church, I consider them far too legalistic and devotions to Mary to be borderline heresy. Your way off base here [/QUOTE]

Okie dokie, got it! Don't know about Calvinists, don't much care for name-tags.

and this isn't the first time I have seen someone malign Christian confession of sin,

If you have verified what I have said with Scripture, you would see, the TRUTH for yourself.....or perhaps you are under the Law, I don't know what Calivinists believe.

it may well be the last. Someone told me I'm much nicer when I'm not involved in these dreadful debates. I spent a great deal of time on Creationism so contentious debates are second nature to me. I'm reconsidering all that now.

Okay, by me.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

Certainly. Read my posts. Not once have I said I have no sin.

And read comments to me...

Well, if a man says he has no sin...he is a liar.

What's up with that?

What's up with that, is ANOTHER MAN, without breaking forum rules, is calling me a liar ?

For what? For saying I have no sin?

No. For claiming their UNDERSTANDING that they "THINK" I am claiming, to have no sin.

However, not once have I ever said that!

What I have claimed....AS THEY with their miminial understanding, and deaf to what I am saying....

I have said, I sinned, and appealed TO GOD....(not them)....confessed my Sin Against God to God....(not them)....and God Forgave me of my sins Against Him....(not them)...and God ..(not them)...has COVERED (not them) my sins against Him....God has forever FREED me ...(not them)...from Sin Against God...God KEEPS me with His Power...(not them)....from EVER Again SINNING AGAINST HIM...

Where in all that I have said does it appear of me saying I have no sin? It doesn't.

Nor have I at ANY TIME claimed to not have sin. My SIN is forgiven. My SIN is covered.
I can NEVER AGAIN SIN. The Lords Power KEEPS ME FREE from Sin. The Lords Power has GIVEN me FULL faithfulness IN HIM ONLY.

So, ya for several pages, OTHERS have grabbed a scripture, that DOES NOT APPLY TO ME, but that gives them a way (without breaking forum rules) to call me a liar, then
Complain, I am so rude, when I am fully aware of what they have just conivingly accomplished.

Yes, I laugh, because with men, their trickery is accomplished, (tee hee, called you a liar, with scripture, didn't break forum rules, na, na, na, and others jump on board, ha, ha ha)....but with God, it is a fail.

God Bless,
SBC

sbc,

1. When one gets saved one is completely saved from sin to the uttermost. That is Bible; Hebrews 7:25.
It only stands to reason that God is all powerful just for the fact he created Heaven and Earth Genesis 1:1 from out of nothing Hebrews 11:3.
If he used his power alone he could make it to where we would have no possibility to sin.
This is a fact not a hypothetical for we overcome by the blood which saved us in the first place Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 10:22.
However, we would be robots and their would not be a real love relationship which takes cooperation of two.

2. Roman's 8:38-39 Calvinist use this to prove Unconditional Eternal Security.
This is not what Paul is proving. Vers 35 says, Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?
These things don't effect God and his power but they can effect man's free will decision. This is why man can sin 1 John 1:8; 2:1-2 or even lose his salvation if he or she is not cooperating with God Joshua 24:15 said choose you this day whom you will serve.
If one doesn't cooperate with God in faith and obedience by believing in the finished work of Christ one cannot be saved Romans 10:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Going back to Roman's 8, Paul was persuaded which means he had a made up mind not that he was in the club.
Ezekiel 18, the Jews thought they were in the club and found out God didn't agree with them unless they did their part and Repent or else he would not remember their righteousness no more.

3. Living free from sin is a possibility but not a probability with most born again Christians.
Many have wrong doctrinal teachings about sin that keep them defeated in sin more than overcoming. Others may just get a stronghold and don't get victory because they have some wrong beliefs of certain scriptures etc.

4. I have listened to those who believe they don't sin anymore and are persuaded it is because they cooperate with God.
But at the same time I have not heard that they couldn't be tripped up etc. or caught off guard etc. They hated to sin because they knew the ravages of sin and its destruction.
Take heed lest ye fall 1 Corinthians 10:12. At the same time be confident that God has given us everything to overcome temptation verse 13.
This can border on law mentality of the Old Covenant instead of Grace mentality under the New Covenant.

5. I don't know you and your relationship with Christ so who am I to say that you lived that consistent in Christ.

6. The real point is not how little you sin as it it is concentrating on living Holy.

7. Your explanation of 1 John 3:9 Is not quite right across the board.
God and sin are at odds with each other and that is true.
But because Christians can sin it has to be about when a Christian abides in him which the light is in him when we live in the light.
When man sins he has to admit he sins and God will cleanse all unrighteousness 1:8 but if he doesn't sin there is no reason to claim you have sinned 1 John 1:5-7.

8. 1 John 5:17 says all unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin unto death. That is spoken to believers and covers a lot of ground.
Verse 18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that wicked one toucheth him not.
The first part shows that God and sin are incompatible and God is more powerful than sin. This is why we don't sin.
The second part is man's part in cooperation with God when he is walking in the light which deals with abiding not that you are not saved. This reconciles with the whole context of 1 John.
There is no difference between a Christian or a born again believer for we are all begotten of God John 3:3-7; 1 Peter 1:3.
To say otherwise comes off and make the difference gives a perception of being condescending and that is why people get upset.
So if you'd like to make a list of sins and which is not or start a post feel free.

9. It would be interesting to see what you believe is sin and what is not. Jerry kelso

 

[bugkiller]

If I ask YOU, a Gentile a question ABOUT what YOU Believe concerning God...
and YOU give me a Jewish teaching, about behavior of men toward men....

What does that have to do with YOU or God, to which the question was asked?

When one FURTHER, in addition to the Jewish teaching, INCLUDE, Jewish Law regarding THEIR religious Laws....

What does that have to do with YOU?

Every time a Jew is teaching a Jew, and referencing .... to do this is good....to do this
IS A SIN....... a SIN ACCORDING TO WHAT?

Jewish Law!

Why, WHEN a Gentile is learning BEHAVIOR between MEN......do Gentiles NOT recognize, it is JEWS TEACHING JEWS? And SINS for Jews ARE "anything" they consider "wrong".

All of Jewish Laws are based on good behavior, and poor behavior.....toward God, toward other Men...taking care to follow their customs, their traditions, their Sabbaths, their lifestyles.....and ANYTHING not in Following those WAYS, according TO JEWISH LAWS.....IS...by Jews...CALLED A SIN.

A SIN of a Gentile, has NOTHING to Do with Jewish Laws, traditions, customs, lifestyle.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS NOT against Men, Animals, Things, Books, letters, etc.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS NOT BELIEVING IN GOD.

A SIN of a Gentile, IS corrupting his SOUL, by it being IN HIS CORRUPT natural born body.

THE Jews are simply the TEACHERS of HOW TO FOLLOW their LAWS.

THEIR Christ Messiah, IS THE TEACHER, for ALL MEN to hear, learn, read About and choose to BELIEVE IN GOD.....or not.

ANY man Gentile or Jew, can choose to BELIEVE in God and His Christ Messiah, His WORD, called the Truth, called by the name JESUS....or not.

Any man WHO, does so Believe, IS forgiven for HIS Disbelief....IS forgiven for corrupting His soul.....IS thereafter FREED FROM SIN, and His soul restored, His spirit quickened, and FOREVER WITH THE Lord His God....
FOREVER in standing WITH GOD....

He can NEVER AGAIN BE IN SIN Standing AGAINST GOD. He gave His Life to God, and forever GOD KEEPS that man unto Himself,
Giving that man FULL FAITH-FULLNESS to God ONLY, BY Gods Power.

So WHY do Gentiles, Learning from Scripture,
FROM JEWS, NOT KNOW, they can not SIN Against God?

WHY do Gentiles, Learing BENIFICIAL ways of behavior of men toward men.....ALSO, adopt
And pretend .... when a Jews is called committing a SIN....a Gentile thinks and testifies ... hey, they did what a Jew did in Scripture....oh, oh, ...they committed a SIN?

It is a SIN unto a JEW, BECAUSE IN THEIR LAW, it is a sin....

How is it a SIN for a Gentile....unless the Gentile thinks they are SUBJECT TO JEWISH LAW? AND so WHY are Gentiles pretending they ARE Subject to Jewish Laws?

We can LEARN from Jesus' OWN words what is acceptable. We can LEARN from Jewish texts, behaviors among men.....

WITHOUT pretending we are Jews, or that we are subject to Jewish Laws and customs.

Christ Jesus taught, very simply, BELIEVE in God, in His Word, with all your heart, confess to Him your belief, and He will FORGIVE all of your SINS AGAINST HIM...He WILL Save your Soul, wash your body in His blood, keep your life with Him, quicken your spirit, and you continue with your bodily life IN HIM, teaching others His Word.

And Jesus' commands....?
Love the Lord with all you heart, soul, spirit, mind.
Love other men as yourself.

Learn behaviors from the Jewish texts...
And if you harm another, fix it. Apologize, pay reparations, and forgive men who cause you a trespass or otherwise harm.
And after you fix it...YOU suffer the consequences...lean on Him for comfort, WHILE you suffer the consequences...and hopefully learn a lesson from your consequences.
Be helpful to others, speak his words, that others may choose to convert.
Be prepared to BE belittled, disparaged, perhaps even bodily killed.... FOR unashamedly Standing UP speaking the Lords Word of Truth. And lean on the Lord for comfort.

God Bless,
SBC

Aren't you a little out of control?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jn 3

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I've seen a lot of this, I generally avoid this sort of thing in a theological context. He is posing a rhetorical question, after conversion can a believer sin. You have two choices, abandon Christian confession of sin or fall into the fallacious circular logic of the flawed propositional logic he is using. Its an old trick and not a cleaver one. When he persists it makes biblical and theological discussion impossible, which appears to be the whole point.

Personally I think he's really trying to discourage believers. What he says makes Christianity futile. And no my pronoun isn't referencing your quoted poster.

bugkiller

 

[SBC]

So you can never again sin but your not claiming that you are without sin?

Correct.

That's a direct contradiction,

No it is not. Ask an alcoholic who has not had a drink in 20 years. They are still an alocholic. I was born in sin, sinned, am a sinner....WHO HAS BEEN FREED from SIN, SIN NO MORE...by the Forgiveness and Power of my Lord.

the rambling discussion of sin being against God and forgiveness being from God is pedantic at best, no one is arguing otherwise.

Then why do you pretend Jews behavior toward other men is a SIN, as Jewish Law dictates, and think that would account to you as a SIN? Does Scripture teach you to forgive men trespasses against you? If you forgive a man, do you think you are forgiving a SIN....when ONLY God forgives SIN?

I can not understand it for you. Because as only God forgives SIN, so also ONLY God can give you HIS UNDERSTANDING.

John is clear that if we say we have no sin the is not in us,

No need to add your mindful understanding to WHAT JOHN SAYS. He said "IF" we say we have no sin...

Do you not realize a person who says they HAVE NO SIN...doesn't believe in SIN, IN GOD, in Sin against God??

Following, John then says, the TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM......hello...WHO IS THE TRUTH?
Jesus, who is Jesus? The Word of God, the Lord, the Christ, God with us.

Not a mystery....of course they do not have the TRUTH IN THEM, they don't BELIEVE!!
They don't believe they have sin...SO OF COURSE they NEVER CONFESS thier SIN to the Lord, nor are forgiven, nor receive a restored soul, or quickened spirit, or the HS!

Does that APPLY to a man WHO DOES BELIEVE, Who asks Gods forgiveness of his sin? NO!

Did YOUR SIN DISAPPEAR when you were FORGIVEN? IF SO, where did it go?
It didn't GO ANYWHERE, it is still IN YOU, BUT IS COVERED.....with Gods LIGHT!! Which is His Spirit.

Sin IS DARKNESS, the absence of Light.
And nothing is more powerful than Gods LIGHT, which IS what covers YOUR SIN, that HE sees it NO MORE, or remembers it NO MORE....and by HIS POWER, He keeps you faithful unto Him ONLY, thus YOU CAN ONLY BE IN STANDING WITH HIM...
Thus you sin NO MORE.

You want to remember you sins? WHY?
God doesn't.
You think Gods Spirit is in you, WHILE you are AGAINST HIM...continuing to SIN?
Sure would make HIS POWER pretty weak, don't you think?

saying I cannot sin is

IS TRUSTING the WORD of God is TRUE, even when your MIND is convincing otherwise...
Why argue with me about what you think in your mind?

Go read the Scriptures without your logical minds interpretation. Decide to BELIEVE the Word of God, and then ASK God for His Understanding. But, I would not advise you attempt to argue with your Minds Logic...against God.

the same thing so let's not bother with semantics here.

Of course. There IS NO debating the TRUTH. The TRUTH JUST IS. You simply can not TRUST what John says....WHOSOEVER....
WHOSOEVER...is born of God, CANNOT SIN.

Care to debate GOD, on IF WHOSOEVER includes Jesus....?? Scripture plainly tells you Jesus was born of God....think about that,
While you are trying to figure out how to NOT believe Johns PLAIN words.

In addition John says if you do not love fellow believers, your outside the faith.

Actually Jesus says to love all men.
And what about it? Who said otherwise?

All things should be done unto edification and attcking belivers for confessing that they are sinners is not building them up ineir faith.

Do you want the TRUTH, or do you want someone to simply agree with you?

If I ask you about you, how you conclude your understanding.....and you don't know,
After 8 pages, it's a bit frustrating. You simply respond with scriptures, that tell me scriptures I already know. It says nothing as to how you conclude your understanding.

In this post you reveal more, by giving your understanding of what you think John really meant to say, and meant as his understanding. John didn't GIVE HIS understanding, or explain hsi words. He simply gave his words, and you can believe them or not. It appears quite obvious you do not. (Speaking of 1 John 3:9).

You believe, what you want him to have said.
Because you believe, you ARE born again AND STILL SIN. THAT is direct conflict with John's teaching. And truthfully, it doesn't even make common sense, to say the Lords Spirit IS IN YOU, presumably POWERLESS, to KEEP you FROM SIN....but then what are these sins you THINK you are committing?

Think about it....actions between men?
Things Jewish men in Jewish Scripture, are calling sins, against men? Jewish laws!!

Once saved and born again...YOU ARE PREPARED to served the LORD....do it, and you shall be rewarded....Don't, and you shall be called the least in the Kingdom of God.

It doesn't say....and YOU SHALL have your saved soul, and quicken spirit, REVERSED.

God has already GIVEN you forgiveness, by His Grace, given you something you did not earn or deserve....but Gave it to you BECAUSE you chose to BELIEVE and GIVE Him, the sacrifice of your living body, which IS your reasonable service to Him.

You want to serve Him more and more...do so with His truth and His wisdom and His understanding that only He can give you.

In only responded here because I thought you understood the difference between the old man and the new nature, since that single post you have demonstrated you won't so much as acknowledge it. I must have fallen for a bait and switch, guess it isn't the first time.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND A MAN BEING MADE WHOLE. Body, soul, spirit.....

While YOU accuse me....YOU are the one who is denying WHOSOEVER is born of God, can not SIN...SINS NO MORE!

It's been said that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing expecting a different result.

Thus I wonder why YOU are relying on your interpretations, of John, with your understanding, and trying to make it John's understanding, that he himself does not give.
His words are very clear, but you want to continue to claim you sin, which is in direct conflict.

You accuse me....yet I am fully in agreement with Scripture...

Isn't that an odd thing?

Christians will not abandon their core conviction and confession that they are sinners.

So? Who said they should?

If you never commit another offense

Offense is irrelevant. There is only ONE thing I can do, and that is to Trespass against other men. And I can never again SIN AGAINST GOD.

I can forgives MEN of their trespasses against me. I can not forgive men of SIN. Only God forgives sin.
However Scripture does say for me to FORGIVE MEN of their Trespasses.

YOU think men can SIN against you?
YOU think Your can SIN against men?
THEN there is NO forgiveness, BY EITHER OF YOU, one to the other RIGHT?
Because ONLY God forgives SIN.

Great! Eh? One runs to God and says forgive me, for SINNING against this man...

AND? Now the other man feels all better, RIGHT? No.

Scripture teaches for you to go take care of your own trespasses, to the one you trespasses against....and you suffer the consequences...and hopefully learn a lesson, from the consequences you suffered.

you still have unredeemed flesh,

I have FORGIVEN flesh.
I have flesh WASHED in the pure Blood of Jesus.
I have Sanctified flesh.
I have JUSTIFIED flesh Kept with Christ.
I have Spiritually DEAD flesh, crucified with Christ.
I have flesh that lives in Christ.
I have flesh that is Testified of in Heaven, IN the Book of Life, Gods records, to BE redeemed and Glorified.

What do you think ALL OF THAT WAS FOR?
So you can pretend you are STILL the OLD man? Do you not know it is God making your body along with your soul and your spirit....
WHOLE, WHOLLY acceptable to Him, according to HIS WAY?

saying I cannot sin and I have no sin is the same thing.

Again, thanks for sharing your MIND-ful thoughts. Perhaps you should write your own Bible with your words, that you can believe and understand. Since, Gods Word doesn't not seem to be sufficient.

Make a decision. TRUST to Believe what IS Written, not what you want it to say, but what it DOES say. Please stop trying to FIGURE OUT the understanding of what makes sense to your MIND. Your mind, is against God. Read the Scripture, it tells you that.
Your understanding is but foolishness to God. Read the Scripture, it tells you that.
ASK GOD for His Understanding....Read the Scriptures...flesh and blood, can not give you Gods Understanding...ONLY HE CAN.

Now if you wanted to argue that the new nature is righteous and without blemish or spot no one would argue. But you dont,

You suggest I should ARGUE something agreed upon, but that I don't.

thus the conversation spirals ever downward

The conversation does not spiral downward, because we are not arguing over something agreed upon. Uh, people in agreement does not present an argument.

into fallacious circular logic.

LOGIC....is what the MIND DOES. The mind thinks, weighs options, between this and that....thinks, humm, which thing makes more sense to the MIND...

TRUTH....just IS. It is Jesus. It is the Word of God.

You can believe it OR NOT.
IF you introduce your mind...saying eh, I don't know, should I believe it, eh, maybe that doesn't make sense....you have already, fooled yourself.

God never asks your MIND anything.
He asks you to BELIEVE in your Heart.
He asks your CONFESSION of Belief in Him, be from your Heart.
So why lean on "logical conclusions" from your MIND, to try and figure out ANYTHING, regarding Scripture?
God doesn't FEED your MIND.
He FEEDS YOUR born again spirit, IN YOUR HEART, with His Spirit.
You want to have a MIND LIKE CHRIST?
YOU feed your MIND, with the thoughts, and truth from your Heart...which is YOU renewing your own mind.

It would not be so bad if it were not all you intend to say on the matter.

Not sure what you mean by that. Oh well.

God Bless,
Happy New Year,
SBC

 

[jerry kelso]

sbc,

1. Of an alcoholic has not had a drink in twenty years is not an alcoholic.
That is used by AAA to help prevent them from taking a drink. That is trusting in oneself instead of God to show that he is free from that sin dominating them. If it works that is fine because Paul mortified the members of his body so he wouldn't be a castaway. However, he included Christ and his grace and power to overcome.

2. We cannot serve two masters at a time. You are servant to who you yield to Romans 6:16.
A truthful person is not a liar. Why? Because he is truthful.
This is talking about the real person's nature.
At the same time a truthful person could tell a lie.
A saint is not a sinner by nature but a saint could could commit a sin.
Bad people are bad because they are bad by nature, but a bad person could perform a good deed.
It is incorrect to say we are sinners saved by grace for we are not sinners anymore.
We could be called a sinner just for the fact if we commit a sin but not by nature.

3. John Wesley's view of sinless perfection was not about the impossibility of being able to commit a sin.
It was about losing the struggle that you give yourself to God in everything.
Like Paul gloried only in the cross and the old man was dead when he got saved and so he wasn't fighting him.
And Paul was not struggling in so much like some believe he was doing in Romans 7 because that was what they did under the Mosaic law. It doesn't mean we can't get back in the same state under the New Covenant if we allow ourselves to.
1 Peter 4:1-2 talks About Christ suffering for us as an example to overcome and that the flesh has ceased from sin so we should no longer live the rest of the time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
If we believe we can't help but sin, which many Christians do then we will spend more in the struggle of defeat instead of overcoming and living the purpose and destiny out that is God's will.

4. Being in the state of abiding in the light where you are not sinning is a possibility but not a probability.
However, when the seed remains concerning salvation God may chasten and reconcile but it wouldn't mean one is not born again. God looks at the heart more than if you merely miss the mark.

5. Sin brings us out of harmony from God is true. Not every sin is a death penalty and the Spirit convicts and we have the opportunity to be reconciled.
The only way that one loses the born again status is to change masters or the sin unto death Romans 6:16; 1 John 5:16-17.
The only way to not sin is to not sin by cooperating with faith in God for without faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11:6 Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

sbc,

1. Of an alcoholic has not had a drink in twenty years is not an alcoholic.
That is used by AAA to help prevent them from taking a drink. That is trusting in oneself instead of God to show that he is free from that sin dominating them. If it works that is fine because Paul mortified the members of his body so he wouldn't be a castaway. However, he included Christ and his grace and power to overcome.

2. We cannot serve two masters at a time. You are servant to who you yield to Romans 6:16.
A truthful person is not a liar. Why? Because he is truthful.
This is talking about the real person's nature.
At the same time a truthful person could tell a lie.
A saint is not a sinner by nature but a saint could could commit a sin.
Bad people are bad because they are bad by nature, but a bad person could perform a good deed.
It is incorrect to say we are sinners saved by grace for we are not sinners anymore.
We could be called a sinner just for the fact if we commit a sin but not by nature.

3. John Wesley's view of sinless perfection was not about the impossibility of being able to commit a sin.
It was about losing the struggle that you give yourself to God in everything.
Like Paul gloried only in the cross and the old man was dead when he got saved and so he wasn't fighting him.
And Paul was not struggling in so much like some believe he was doing in Romans 7 because that was what they did under the Mosaic law. It doesn't mean we can't get back in the same state under the New Covenant if we allow ourselves to.
1 Peter 4:1-2 talks About Christ suffering for us as an example to overcome and that the flesh has ceased from sin so we should no longer live the rest of the time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
If we believe we can't help but sin, which many Christians do then we will spend more in the struggle of defeat instead of overcoming and living the purpose and destiny out that is God's will.

4. Being in the state of abiding in the light where you are not sinning is a possibility but not a probability.
However, when the seed remains concerning salvation God may chasten and reconcile but it wouldn't mean one is not born again. God looks at the heart more than if you merely miss the mark.

5. Sin brings us out of harmony from God is true. Not every sin is a death penalty and the Spirit convicts and we have the opportunity to be reconciled.
The only way that one loses the born again status is to change masters or the sin unto death Romans 6:16; 1 John 5:16-17.
The only way to not sin is to not sin by cooperating with faith in God for without faith it is impossible to please God Hebrews 11:6 Jerry kelso

 

[mark kennedy]

Personally I think he's really trying to discourage believers. What he says makes Christianity futile. And no my pronoun isn't referencing your quoted poster.

bugkiller

I don't know the intent but I do know the gospel and the first order of business is being convicted of sin. Forgiveness is pointless unless God provides righteousness and that comes to the repentant sinner by Grace alone. Following conversion the believer is born again and indwelled by the Holy Spirit but nowhere is Scripture are we told we are sinless, only that the new nature, that grows from the 'seed', is the righteousness of God in Christ. We still have the old nature and even if you never commit another offense in thought, word or deed, which is impossible, we are still sinners. Thats the gospel.