“We are all fundamentally good ... the heart itself is good,” says Pope Francis

[Akita Suggagaki]

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When The Bible is speaking of a person as righteous, this person is a born again believer. That is why Romans 3:10 can say none is righteous. As no human on their own standing is righteous, but the very moment a person believes in Jesus for Eternal Life. They move from not being righteous to a permanent position of righteousness. Because now they have living in them, the very Life of God which makes them righteous before God.

Proverbs was written before Jesus was born.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Genesis 6:9

This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.​

Psalm 34:19
The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all;

Psalm 37:16
Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked;

Ezekiel 18:5
“Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right.

1. Matthew 13:17
   For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
   
   
2. Mark 6:20
   because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled; yet he liked to listen to him.

Matthew 12:35
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Matthew 25:21
“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant!

Luke 23:50

Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man,​

Acts 11:24
He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.

All this just to make the point that people are fundamentally both good and evil, as in the eye of the beholder. The Pope never said they do not need a savior or that they are sinless.

Someone just wants to do some Pope-bashing.

 

[d taylor]

Proverbs was written before Jesus was born.

That does not matter. People from Adam to now always received God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus.

Jesus is speaking about The Tanakh
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That does not matter. People from Adam to now always received God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus.

Jesus is speaking about The Tanakh
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

How could people believe in Jesus before he was born?

The point is people can be "fundamentally good" since they are created in God's image and likeness but that does not make them sinless, perfect nor without need of salvation.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

How could people believe in Jesus before he was born?

They could believe in God's promise of Messiah, for exmaple, genesis 3 14:15.

There is also the first Abraham's covenant genesis 12 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

OT is full of God's promises, and Messiah. If one believed in God, that person would be saved. Genesis 15 6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

The point is people can be "fundamentally good" since they are created in God's image and likeness but that does not make them sinless, perfect nor without need of salvation

Actually God did create us sinless. Everything that God creates is perfect. But God did not create robota, but human beings capable of their own decisions. Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey God, but they chose not to. Just because God did give them opportunity to chose, does not mean He created them sinners. Adam and Eve chose to sin, sin separates man from God as God is Holy. Separation from God, the source of life, is death. We all are sinners, in need of a redeemer. Only someone who is truly sinless can redeem.

Us being created in the image of God means that we are ought to reflect His glory and righteousness like a mirror. But we sinned and we became corrupt. Yes we are still His image, but a broken one. God calls us to His Son so He can renew us in His perfect image.

The righteous people in the Bible were sinners. They were not righeous by themselves, but they were given Jesus' righteousness, by believing in promised Messiah. People in OT were looking towards the cross, people in NT are looking back.
Habakuk 2 4 'But the righteous will live by his faith.' Faith in the perfect redeeming work of Christ on the cross.

 

[d taylor]

How could people believe in Jesus before he was born?

The point is people can be "fundamentally good" since they are created in God's image and likeness but that does not make them sinless, perfect nor without need of salvation.

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Jesus has always existed. Who do you think planted a garden The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
Who was walking in the garden and was looking for Adam and Eve after they sinned.

 

[Jamdoc]

View attachment 348436

“We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good,” says Pope Francis.

But what does God’s word say?

“… None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18 ESV)

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

If man and his heart is fundamentally good, why do we need a saviour?
For what purpose did Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, die?
Who should we believe, the Pope, or God?

As it is written, “We must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)

But there is good news...

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was crucified and died for our sins, taking upon Himself the punishment we deserve. He was then buried and raised back to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures. He now sits at His Father’s right hand and is awaiting His Father’s instruction to return. This was all recorded in the scriptures contained in the Holy Bible, which is the word of God and is able to save our souls.

Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart in rebellion. Whoever conceals his sins will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy and forgiveness. If you repent and believe in the gospel, putting your faith in Jesus Christ, you will inherit salvation, which leads to everlasting life. With this salvation comes a necessary spiritual rebirth; God will give you a new heart and His Holy Spirit, which will give you wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, put His Laws on your heart and mind, guide you into all the truth, help you, and comfort you. By the blood of Jesus, sanctifying you and cleansing you of all unrighteousness—conforming you to His image.

Yeah.. I immediately thought of the same verses..

this pope.. yeah sorry Catholics but your institution got corrupted by the world starting in the 4th century when it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and this current pope should be glaring evidence of that.

 

[Valletta]

Yeah.. I immediately thought of the same verses..

this pope.. yeah sorry Catholics but your institution got corrupted by the world starting in the 4th century when it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and this current pope should be glaring evidence of that.

You were there? Lots of religions became the official state religion for various government. Judging people back in the 4th century? Try not to judge others or persecute other Christians. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[Valletta]

Why did God create us so unrighteous?…

Genesis 1
…27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

...30 And to every beast of the earth and every bird of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth—everything that has the breath of life in it—I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning— the sixth day.

Job was righteous. Job was God's friend.

 

[NBB]

If we were good this world wouldn't be horrible, full of violence, greed that make people cheat others.

 

[Bobber]

“We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good,” says Pope Francis.

So I guess he's parroting a way of thinking you can always find something good in everyone generally speaking. As spiritual leaders though none of us should make that our goal to seek to assert. The issue is has any and all individuals done what it takes, believing and receiving the grace of God to make oneself a new creature, a new creation, being born again with the LIFE of God within. Even if we can argue all people have a general type of goodness in them....SO WHAT? That is NOT the same as becoming born again and becoming saved.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

So I guess he's parroting a way of thinking you can always find something good in everyone generally speaking. As spiritual leaders though none of us should make that our goal to seek to assert. The issue is has any and all individuals done what it takes, believing and receiving the grace of God to make oneself a new creature, a new creation, being born again with the LIFE of God within. Even if we can argue all people have a general type of goodness in them....SO WHAT? That is NOT the same as becoming born again and becoming saved.

No but he was asked what gives him hope. Let's not blow this hopeful little comment out of proportion.

What is more disturbing is this emphasis on human negativity. Amplifying a few scripture verses that identify human fault while completely ignoring those that speak of human goodness. Why is that?

 

[BobRyan]

“We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good,” says Pope Francis.

But what does God’s word say?

“… None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18 ESV)

Yep. God's Word is very different from o"we area all fundamentally good".

God's Word says we all are sinners and need the Gospel.

Might it might be more "politically correct" to say everyone is fundamentally good.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

If man and his heart is fundamentally good, why do we need a saviour?
For what purpose did Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, die?

excellent question

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Yep. God's Word is very different from o"we area all fundamentally good".

God's Word says we all are sinners and need the Gospel.

Might it might be more "politically correct" to say everyone is fundamentally good.

excellent question

Only some of God's word is different.
Good people can still be sinners needing the Gospel. your view is to simplistic, too black and white. The human condition is a mixture. All in need of redemption yet some more righteous than others.

Politics has nothing to do with it.

Question has been answered several times.

 

[Clare73]

Only some of God's word is different.
Good people can still be sinners needing the Gospel. your view is to simplistic, too black and white.

You have just indicted Scripture.

The human condition is a mixture. All in need of redemption yet some more righteous than others.

Not according to the NT teaching Paul received from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12), where
"There is no one righteous, not even one. . .all have turned away. . .there is no one who does good, not even one," (Ro 3:10-12).
"God has bound all men over to disobedience (condemnation)." (Ro 11:32)

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You have just indicted Scripture.

Not according to the NT teaching Paul received from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12), where
"There is no one righteous, not even one. . .all have turned away. . .there is no one who does good, not even one," (Ro 3:10-12).
"God has bound all men over to disobedience (condemnation)." (Ro 11:32)

See post #22

 

[Clare73]

See post #22.

Good response. . .

Righteous in the OT did not mean sinless, it means righteous in the eyes of man, which is not the same as in the eyes of God
Righteous in the NT means as in the eyes of God--sinless, as Christ is righteous, and is had only by being in Christ through faith.

 

[Clare73]

So you all think it is Catholic and Christian teaching that the human heart is fundamentally evil?

According to the apostle Paul's teaching from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12),
the sinful human heart since Adam's fall prefers self over God, self-will over God's will, it being
hostile to God and unable to submit to his law (Ro 8:7),
unable to please God (Ro 8:8) and
blind to spiritual matters (1 Co 2:14).

One must be born again to even see the things of God (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

According to the apostle Paul's teaching from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12),
the sinful human heart since Adam's fall prefers self over God, self-will over God's will, it being
hostile to God and unable to submit to his law (Ro 8:7),
unable to please God (Ro 8:8) and
blind to spiritual matters (1 Co 2:14).

One must be born again to even see the things of God (Jn 3:3-5).

Again, it is very Calvinistic to emphasize human fault. Why do people prefer to amplify a few scripture verses that identify human fault while completely ignoring those that speak of human goodness?

 

[Clare73]

Again, it is very Calvinistic to emphasize human fault. Why do people prefer to amplify a few scripture verses that identify human fault while completely ignoring those that speak of human goodness?

Strawman. . .

All Scripture is the word of God, all equally true.

What NT Scriptures do you have in mind regarding human goodness of itself?

The NT emphasizes the righteousness of Christ and our participation in his righteousness through being in him, whereby we are empowered to obey and walk in obedience/righteousness.