Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

fhansen said:

I'd be more concerned about the eternal destiny of that neighbor

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We're in no different shape than they are. Do you think anyone makes themselves sinless enough to be saved?

Claiming any people might end up being burned alive forever or eternally terminated certainly is NOT love, ever.

Nevertheless Jesus could look any of us in the face as He did with Peter and proclaim that's going to happen, because the tempter engages all of us internally and internally is where that bad actor will find its end.

Even in the hardest Words of God, they are LIFE for people.

BNR32FAN said:

And you still haven’t demonstrated that God’s plan is to save those who refuse to cooperate with Him.

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We have open written evidence that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11:26-32

It's like the freewill/determination debates. IF you look for evidence of either, THEN you'll find evidence for both. IF you start looking for the scriptural evidence that all people will be saved, THEN it's there to be found. More than enough to confirm the fact.

However, people really do get blinded to that matter, precisely because of the reality of Mark 4:15

And in the reflection that our neighbors, whom we are to love, will instead be burned alive forever or eternally tormented, it is really the darkness we have been subjected to in our own flesh that is being reflected in such claims.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

We have open written evidence that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11:26-32

It's like the freewill/determination debates. IF you look for evidence of either, THEN you'll find evidence for both. IF you start looking for the scriptural evidence that all people will be saved, THEN it's there to be found. More than enough to confirm the fact.

However, people really do get blinded to that matter, precisely because of the reality of Mark 4:15

And in the reflection that our neighbors, whom we are to love, will instead be burned alive forever or eternally tormented, it is really the darkness we have been subjected to in our own flesh that is being reflected in such claims.

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Well no because there are several passages that specifically and plainly state eternal punishment and annihilation with any question as to what is being said. The passages that are used to support universal reconciliation are extremely ambiguous and can mean just about anything. There are no passages that just come right out and say everyone will be saved. There are passages that just come right out and say people will be punished for eternity or people’s soul will die in the lake of fire. There’s no question about the meaning of these statements vs the statements used in support of universal reconstruction.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

We're in no different shape than they are. Do you think anyone makes themselves sinless enough to be saved?

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Sure we can, with God, with whom all things are possible. Apart from God we can do nothing -John 15:5.

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

Jeff Saunders said:

God is long suffering he can wait as long as it takes for every human to come into agreement with what Jesus has done, its not our body that is " saved" but us our true self, and that is eternal.

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Ok so I misunderstood your position. I thought you were saying that God doesn’t desire that anyone goes to Hades but it seems that you’re actually saying that God doesn’t desire anyone to remain in Hades. Is that correct?

Jeff Saunders said:

God is long suffering he can wait as long as it takes for every human to come into agreement with what Jesus has done, its not our body that is " saved" but us our true self, and that is eternal.

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So I have another question. According to Matthew 7:21-23 it appears that those who are calling Jesus Lord Lord are in fact repenting. They’re pleading their case to Him. Furthermore this takes place at the great white throne of judgement where everyone will bow and proclaim that Jesus is Lord. At this time NOBODY will be an unbeliever. Yet according to Revelation 20 those who are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire AFTER the great white throne of judgement. So there’s no unbelief at this time, everyone has proclaimed Jesus as Lord so why are some still thrown into the lake of fire if they’ve already repented of their unbelief?

BNR32FAN said:

So I have another question. According to Matthew 7:21-23 it appears that those who are calling Jesus Lord Lord are in fact repenting. They’re pleading their case to Him. Furthermore this takes place at the great white throne of judgement where everyone will bow and proclaim that Jesus is Lord. At this time NOBODY will be an unbeliever. Yet according to Revelation 20 those who are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire AFTER the great white throne of judgement. So there’s no unbelief at this time, everyone has proclaimed Jesus as Lord so why are some still thrown into the lake of fire if they’ve already repented of their unbelief?

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The point of the Matthew passage is that those people are depending on their own works, which they claimed were in Jesus' name, to obligate Jesus to save them.

This is precisely what Paul was speaking of in Romans 4:4,5.

That's not repentance, that's an expectation of payment for work.

RDKirk said:

The point of the Matthew passage is that those people are depending on their own works, which they claimed were in Jesus' name, to obligate Jesus to save them.

This is precisely what Paul was speaking of in Romans 4:4,5.

That's not repentance, that's an expectation of payment for work.

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No that’s not the message of the passage at all. Jesus tells them exactly why He condemns them, because of their lawlessness. They did not hear His words and act on them. He just got thru explaining how you can identify a person my their actions, hence you can identify a tree by its fruits. Then He goes on the explain the importance of hearing His words and acting on them. He never says a single word about seeking justification by works throughout the entire sermon.

BNR32FAN said:

No that’s not the message of the passage at all. Jesus tells them exactly why He condemns them, because of their lawlessness. They did not hear His words and act on them. He just got thru explaining how you can identify a person my their actions, hence you can identify a tree by its fruits. Then He goes on the explain the importance of hearing His words and acting on them. He never says a single word about seeking justification by works throughout the entire sermon.

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There lawlessness is a result of their attitude, they came boasting of all the miracles they had worked in His name. They weren't humbly thanking Him for showing them mercy and allowing them to participate in the work, but caught up in pride and self-aggrandizement.

Jeff Saunders said:

As scripture has stated that those who do not follow Jesus in this mortal body, will go to the LOF , which is a refining fire of Gods love, which will strip away all that is not of God,

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Where do you get this? Here's what Revelation says of the LoF:

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So what about "the second death" gives you the impression that it is refining and not terminal?

Jeff Saunders said:

What is terminal is death of the soul, that is the second death. It does not say death of the Spirit, your spirit is you, you are not your mortal body that will die, you are not your soul, your soul is what you have made of or with your life, have you lived for Jesus or have you lived for self, have you built your own kingdom or are you part of Gods kingdom and died to self, given up your life for Jesus. Those who have their soul die lose everything they built on earth and they lose whatever inheritance that they would have had if they had followed Jesus.
But they will be saved, there are many scriptures that say Jesus will restore all things, God will reconcile all things, Gods will is none should perish, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, and others if most or even a few are lost then Jesus failed and that is just not possible.

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And what is the basis of anything of the person surviving the death of the soul? What is it that is supposed to survive, exactly?

Jeff Saunders said:

Fire is used for a symbol of cleansing and refining in the scriptures.

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In some points, but not always. In others it's used as a matter of consumption and annihilation.

BNR32FAN said:

Well no because there are several passages that specifically and plainly state eternal punishment and annihilation with any question as to what is being said.

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You do understand that some Christian Universalists do believe there is an eternal forever and ever hell/LoF with forthcoming occupants, the devil and his messengers.

And just where did Jesus show these "other entities" were located?

BNR32FAN said:

The passages that are used to support universal reconciliation are extremely ambiguous and can mean just about anything.

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There no ambiguity whatsoever with ALL of Israel being saved, even enemies of the Gospel, Romans 11:26-32

There's a massive amount of evidence that God in Christ saves all people.

IF you simply concede that all people are God's children, which is a long held position of orthodoxy, THEN you can either conclude that God saves all people, OR God burns His Own children alive forever. That seems like a pretty simple conclusion to make.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Do you think anyone makes themselves sinless enough to be saved?

fhansen said:

Sure we can,

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Well, if you want to take a trip into heresy land, so be it

Jeff Saunders said:

There spirit, which is the them, we are spirit beings having a temporary attachment to a mortal body, we are not our body its just like a vehicle we are attached to, our soul is what you have done or made. If your soul was you, how would you be able to do what Jesus said, if you want to save your soul you must lose it, but if you try to hang on to it you will lose it.
I believe most people get the soul and spirit either mixed up or they think they are the same, or they do not believe we are triune beings. If our soul is the us that in western tradition goes to either heaven or hell, how do you lose that ? But if its what you have made of your life or what you have done, we have control of that , we can either live for Jesus and build his kingdom or we can live for self and build our own kingdom, we do control what we do with our life, as a follower of Jesus all that is built goes with us or is waiting for us, the whole store up your treasures in heaven not on earth.
But our spirit is us and I do not see in scripture that we can lose our spirit, we are all neverending beings.
I think we can see a possible reality of what it might be like, in those people who have 100% amnesia, they do not remember anything at all, but are still living and can talk and do everyday things but all that happened before is just gone. I personally think that those who go through the second death will be like that, they survive but as one going through fire all was burned up.

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You've given opinion, but it doesn't really appear a sensible one nor does it line up with what Scripture presents. The soul is the entire being, the spirit the immaterial, and the body the material. What you are presenting essentially appears to be an ad hoc scheme to support your UR commitments rather than contending with the Scripture that clearly contradicts UR claims.

Jeff Saunders said:

Sorry but if you would stop using the English translations the have used eternal for the translation of aionion, you would see that just the opposite of your statement is true. The punishments of God are for correction not punitive, God is all about reconciliation unless you believe Jesus failed in his mission to be the savior of the world, he is not a potentiel savior if man will just do his part.
When you understand Gods time table of multiple ages and how he is working progressively moving his creation towards the telos of 1 Cor 15:28 that in the end God will be all in all, not all in some and the rest torchered or annihilated. We are still in the process, but in the end God will get his desire that none perish but for all to come to the knowledge of him.
How are these verses ambiguous ?
1 Tim 4:9-11 Because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things.
John 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.- The Greek word translated drag helko means to drag like a fishing net.
1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live.
John 12:47 Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it.
These are only a few verses, can you explain how they are ambiguous.

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Yeah sure I’ll explain them.

Jeff Saunders said:

1 Tim 4:9-11 Because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

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Paul just told Timothy to beware of false prophets who preach false doctrines.

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In verse 10 Paul is emphasizing that our hope of salvation is in our faith in Christ who is the Savior of all men as opposed to our hope of salvation being in obedience to the law or observing other erroneous rituals created by false prophets. Jesus is the Savior of all men and the world because He is the ONLY SOURCE OF SALVATION. If there is only one gas station in the entire world then it is the gas station that supplies gas to all men, it is the gas station that supplies gas to the world because there is no other gas station.

And verse 16 makes a very interesting point.

“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also told Timothy that persevering in his teaching will ensure his salvation and those who hear his teachings. According to verse 16 Timothy’s salvation IS NOT ENSURED UNLESS he perseveres in his teachings.

Jeff Saunders said:

Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things.

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Jesus is the restoration of all things. That is a very ambitious statement. Is Jesus going to restore evil? Is Jesus going to restore rape and murder? Is Jesus going to restore disco? Is Jesus going to restore 69 Cameros? Restoration of all things can mean almost anything. It could very well refer to restoring the earth back to its original state before the fall like what is prophesied in Isaiah 65. It can mean a lot of things hence it’s an ambiguous statement.

Jeff Saunders said:

John 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.- The Greek word translated drag helko means to drag like a fishing net.

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Yes His plan is to draw all men to Himself that is the whole purpose of the great commission in Matthew 28 which was the very last thing He told His apostles to do before He ascended into heaven.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also said “for many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22 in the parable about the wedding feast and the man who was binded and cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn’t appear to be receiving salvation, does he?

Jeff Saunders said:

1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live.

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Yeah from one source, Adam, condemnation came to all men just like from one source, Jesus, salvation comes to all men. Again the point is that there is no other source of salvation.

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭20‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice the order of resurrection to life. First Christ then ALL WHO ARE CHRIST’S THEN THE END WILL COME. Nothing about a resurrection to life here for those who are NOT Christ’s.

Notice the term “He must reign until He has put all His enemies UNDER HIS FEET” And pay attention here “the last ENEMY THAT WILL BE ABOLISHED is death”. Christ’s enemies will be put “under His feet” which means they must be ABOLISHED. Nothing about resurrecting His enemies to life, nothing about His enemies later becomes His friends. Only Christ’s and those who belong to Christ are resurrected to life, the rest are abolished. Then all of His enemies will be in subjection to Him under His feet because they have been abolished then Christ will relinquish His reign to The Father and be in subjection to The Father and God will be all in all because none of His enemies exist anymore.

Jeff Saunders said:

John 12:47 Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it.

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Yeah Jesus came to save the world. That’s exactly what He came here for. He came here to bring us the gospel and to die on the cross to pay for our sins and not just our’s but the sins of the whole world. Yeah He paid for the sins of the whole world but nowhere in the scriptures does it say that the whole world will be saved. Just because Jesus paid the price doesn’t mean that He is obligated to allow everyone to enter.