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6,000 Years?

davetaff

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Hi
There was a creation before the flood wich was destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark.
After the flood God began a new creation the only thing he needed to create was man in the image of God everything else was on the ark the first man he created was Israel the man of flesh the man of flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God only the spiritual man so God began a new creation through Jesus Christ we are now in the 6th day of that creation awaiting the return of Christ let us pray it will be soon.

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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David Lamb

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Hi
There was a creation before the flood wich was destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark.
After the flood God began a new creation the only thing he needed to create was man in the image of God everything else was on the ark the first man he created was Israel the man of flesh the man of flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God only the spiritual man so God began a new creation through Jesus Christ we are now in the 6th day of that creation awaiting the return of Christ let us pray it will be soon.

Love and Peace
Dave
Dave, you have said this several times. Could you give scriptural support for your idea that God began a new creation after the Flood? He didn't create Israel; He chose Israel out of all the nations to be His Old Testament people. They were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and not a new creation, like Adam was.
 
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davetaff

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Hi David
Thank you for you post there so many scriptures that relate to creation I will give a few.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work

So what was the Father and son working on if it was not the creation of man in his image don't forget the first Adam died before the flood when Noah stepped of the Ark there was no man in the image of God I believe the word man should be understood as mankind.
The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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David Lamb

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Hi David
Thank you for you post there so many scriptures that relate to creation I will give a few.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work
Thanks Dave. Yes, there are many Scriptures referring to God's Creation, and to His new creation, but none of them says that He started a new creation after the flood.
So what was the Father and son working on if it was not the creation of man in his image don't forget the first Adam died before the flood when Noah stepped of the Ark there was no man in the image of God I believe the word man should be understood as mankind.
I know we have had this discussion before, but all human beings are made in the image of God. That is the reason the bible gives for murder being wrong:

“"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” (Ge 9:6 NKJV)

If only Adam was in God's image, Genesis 9:6 would make no sense, because Adam was dead by then.

The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say
I agree with that.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness
I agree with that, too.
Love and Peace
Dave
 
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davetaff

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Hi David
You said
Thanks Dave. Yes, there are many Scriptures referring to God's Creation, and to His new creation, but none of them says that He started a new creation after the flood.

You are right of course so I modify my statement God continued his creation after the flood the end result mankind in the image of God which would be Jesus Christ at his second coming this is the new creation that Christ began.

You said
I know we have had this discussion before, but all human beings are made in the image of God. That is the reason the bible gives for murder being wrong:

“"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” (Ge 9:6 NKJV

Sorry David but I can not agree but I am not in the image of God and neither are you I think the verse you quoted refers to Israel and Christ all human beings were created on day 5 and were part of all creeping things think of Peters vision of the sheet full of creeping things depicting the gentiles.
When God said let's make man in our image there were quite a few human beings on the planet so God picked one and called him Adam in the same way he picked Abraham to be the father of Israel Gods method of creation never changes.

You said
The man in the image of God is Jesus Christ he is the head his body the multitude of believers he shall present to the Father on his return what do the scriptur say
I agree with that.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth

It says in our image and our likeness he dose not say my image and my likeness
Click to expand...
I agree with that, too.

If you agree with the above how can you say thatwe mere men are in the image of God nobody has seen God so nobody can say we are in his image like I have said many times before the word man must be understood as mankind
.
Love and Peace
Dave
 
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davetaff

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Hi
Good morning jest thought of this verse thought it might be relevant to our discussion

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

The end is the end of creation man in the image of God the beginning is the creation account in Genesis on which the scriptures are based

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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davetaff

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Hi
Good morning jest thought of this verse thought it might be relevant to our discussion

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

The end is the end of creation man in the image of God the beginning is the creation account in Genesis on which the scriptures are based

Love and Peace
Dave
Hi
No rebuttal must have got it right.

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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Amo2

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But that doesn't happen in the everyday work of science. We don't go in to work each day having "pre-determined that there is no God".


No that's not how science works. We don't have to observe something before it can be studied and tested. That's why archaeologists can draw conclusions about past civilizations and events even though they didn't observe them themselves.


Really? Where can I see this groundbreaking work?


Are you actually saying someone like me, a Christian and a scientist, isn't actually a Christian because I'm not a YEC?
But that doesn't happen in the everyday work of science. We don't go in to work each day having "pre-determined that there is no God".

I didn't say you or all scientists do this. I said many do. Including a great many no doubt, who do not even realize they are doing so. Nevertheless, all those who proceed forward in support of the theoretical work of others before them, are in fact doing this very thing. Their faith in a previous theory, guiding their footsteps and conclusions. This is of course natural and even necessary. One must have a base from which to begin tests and observations. The problem of course for any side or view, are the presumptions which must be made concerning the differing base faiths, as I would refer to them. Deep timers assume deep time according to their faith in the observations and speculations of deep timers before them. YEC's assume a much younger origin according to the simply stated creation account in Genesis and support for such all throughout scripture. And increasingly also, the observations and speculations of YEC's before them.

No that's not how science works. We don't have to observe something before it can be studied and tested. That's why archaeologists can draw conclusions about past civilizations and events even though they didn't observe them themselves.


Archaeology or archeology[a] is the study of human activity through the recovery and analysis of material culture. The archaeological record consists of artifacts, architecture, biofacts or ecofacts, sites, and cultural landscapes. Archaeology can be considered both a social science and a branch of the humanities.[1][2][3] It is usually considered an independent academic discipline, but may also be classified as part of anthropology (in North America – the four-field approach), history or geography.[4] The discipline involves surveying, excavation, and eventually analysis of data collected, to learn more about the past. In broad scope, archaeology relies on cross-disciplinary research.
Archaeologists make observations and extrapolate upon artifacts which have been discovered, not nothing. They are often wrong themselves, and disagree among themselves regarding their speculations. As it is with most scientific endeavors, which all incorporate certain assumptions along the way.

Really? Where can I see this groundbreaking work?

You mean apart from deep timer observations or claims which have already been proved wrong or faith based rather than established facts, as I have already shared or addressed. As in deep time scenarios are no longer necessary to the development of great deal of what we presently see all around us. As in observable and testable rapid fossil formation, rapid geographical establishment and or transformation under catastrophic conditions. Including rapid layering of the earths crust through catastrophic flood scenarios, which rapidly lay down sediments over very vast areas in relatively even distributions. Easily observed to be absent of any erosive elements which deep time scenarios would necessitate. Or the ever ongoing observations by deep timers themselves, that complexity seems to have existed further and further back in time concerning almost all scientific disciplines. Which is of course highly suggestive of complexity from the beginning, instead of slowly developing over deep time scenarios. Sure. The following video would be a good place to start.


Or perhaps one of the following sites at the links below.






Just to grab a few in a minute or two of searching the Web.

Are you actually saying someone like me, a Christian and a scientist, isn't actually a Christian because I'm not a YEC?

Of course not. "Christians" today come from an ever increasing number differing beliefs and or even moral standards. The word or title simply does not any longer have a very specific or standardized meaning. I am saying though, that those who reject biblical testimony regarding the creation in favor of more popular and recent theories concerning our existence, are doing more damage to biblical testimony than they probably realize. The implications of which seriously affect the gospel message itself, and or peoples trust or not in the truth of the testimony of holy scripture altogether. If the creation account actually means something so drastically different than what it plainly states, as in deep time evolutionary processes for the existence of everything, then how should all the rest of the following scriptures be viewed? Or who can argue for a literal interpretation or understanding of any of it? Since it is so very contradicting right from the beginning of its testimony.
 
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Amo2

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Findings of very old Earth not only can be tested, they are tested regularly. Would you like some examples?
Yes, and those tests rely upon certain presumptions as well. Would you like some examples of those pointing out such presumptions?
 
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Amo2

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Dr. Coffin was a devout Seventh-Day Adventist, a firm believer in a young Earth, based on his religious beliefs.

The actual statement was as a witness in McLean vs. Arkansas Board of Education.
McLean v. Arkansas Bd. of Ed., 529 F. Supp. 1255 (E.D. Ark. 1982)
Let's put a little context around that quoted statement.


Creationist Activities, Research, and Publications​

In 1964, Richard M. Ritland, director of the Geoscience Research Institute (GRI), invited Coffin to join GRI as a staff scientist, a position he held until his retirement in 1990.8 During his time at GRI, Coffin studied the famous “fossil forests” of Yellowstone National Park, generally interpreted as having been deposited during the Eocene Epoch, approximately fifty million years ago. Coffin, who embraced the concept of a recent creation and a global Genesis Flood, thought the fossil trees were deposited within the last few thousand years. He cited the parallel orientation of horizontally positioned fossil trees as evidence they had been floated in during the Flood.9 By contrast, Ritland, citing what he interpreted to be soil levels and root zones, believed the trees represented a series of actual forests that had repeatedly been destroyed by volcanic debris flows.10

Coffin also studied the multi-layered “fossil forests” in the coal seams of Joggins, Nova Scotia. Once again he interpreted these trees as having been deposited by the Flood. Among the fossil trees, he found fossil shells of marine tubeworms of the genus Spirorbis which he said would not have lived in Carboniferous rain forests containing the trees, the usual interpretation for the origin of this ecosystem.11

Both the Yellowstone and Joggins fossil forests contain upright stumps and trunks of fossil trees, often interpreted to have been in growth position. Coffin, however, did experiments showing that under certain conditions plants can sometimes float upright.12 Coffin used the results of these experiments to suggest that just because a fossil tree is oriented in an upright position does not mean it is in its position of growth.13 Similarly, he demonstrated that many trees floating in Spirit Lake, Washington, following Mount St. Helens’ 1980 eruption were floating upright.14 These experiments and observations have been touted widely by creationists as evidence consistent with belief in the Genesis Flood.15

In December 1981, Coffin and Ariel Roth, also employed by GRI, served as expert witnesses on behalf of the defense during the Arkansas Creation trial (McLean et al. vs State Board of Education). They referred to things like rapid fossilization and massive depth of coal beds as bases for believing in a worldwide flood. Under cross-examination, however, Coffin noted that his belief in a young earth was based on the Bible; he said the scientific evidence alone would lead him to believe the earth was very old.16 He testified that his reading of the Bible and the results of his scientific studies convinced him that the Genesis Flood had taken place five to seven thousand years ago.17 He believed the Bible’s “assertions are historically and scientifically true with the exception of minor problems.”18

Coffin, in agreement with Robert H. Brown, another colleague at GRI, had “no objection to radiometrically dating ages as far as the inorganic matter is concerned,” but life itself was only a few thousand years old. He believed the sun, moon, and stars to be very old as well.19

In contrast with many creationists, Coffin believed that “evolution science” is indeed science, and that both “evolution science” and “creation science” are “in the same category.” According to Coffin, neither evolution nor creation is falsifiable. He felt, however, “that a person who knew nothing about evolution or creation, if he took the fossil record at face value . . . would come up to the opinion that there was a sudden creative act.” As evidence, he referred to the large diversity of complex fossil animals that seem to appear suddenly in the Cambrian level of the geologic column.20

Coffin was a member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science; the Geological Society of America; and Sigma Xi, the Scientific Research Society. At one time he also was a member of the Creation Research Society, but he let his membership lapse in part because he did not agree with all its membership tenets. He also quibbled with some of the scientific conclusions of members of that society.21

Many of Coffin’s books and articles were written for Adventist and creationist audiences. But he also published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, including Geology, Journal of Paleontology, and Palaios. These latter articles reported the results of his experiments and observations with upright trees in Yellowstone and Nova Scotia. Although he considered the results published in these journals consistent with his belief in “Flood geology,” the articles did not mention this fact.22

In other words, if Dr. Coffin didn't believe the biblical account of creation, he would be a deep timer. Just as no doubt, many deep timers who now believe the testimony of deep timers before them, might be YEC's if they no longer did.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I didn't say you or all scientists do this. I said many do. Including a great many no doubt, who do not even realize they are doing so. Nevertheless, all those who proceed forward in support of the theoretical work of others before them, are in fact doing this very thing. Their faith in a previous theory, guiding their footsteps and conclusions. This is of course natural and even necessary. One must have a base from which to begin tests and observations. The problem of course for any side or view, are the presumptions which must be made concerning the differing base faiths, as I would refer to them. Deep timers assume deep time according to their faith in the observations and speculations of deep timers before them. YEC's assume a much younger origin according to the simply stated creation account in Genesis and support for such all throughout scripture. And increasingly also, the observations and speculations of YEC's before them.





Archaeologists make observations and extrapolate upon artifacts which have been discovered, not nothing. They are often wrong themselves, and disagree among themselves regarding their speculations. As it is with most scientific endeavors, which all incorporate certain assumptions along the way.



You mean apart from deep timer observations or claims which have already been proved wrong or faith based rather than established facts, as I have already shared or addressed. As in deep time scenarios are no longer necessary to the development of great deal of what we presently see all around us. As in observable and testable rapid fossil formation, rapid geographical establishment and or transformation under catastrophic conditions. Including rapid layering of the earths crust through catastrophic flood scenarios, which rapidly lay down sediments over very vast areas in relatively even distributions. Easily observed to be absent of any erosive elements which deep time scenarios would necessitate. Or the ever ongoing observations by deep timers themselves, that complexity seems to have existed further and further back in time concerning almost all scientific disciplines. Which is of course highly suggestive of complexity from the beginning, instead of slowly developing over deep time scenarios. Sure. The following video would be a good place to start.


Or perhaps one of the following sites at the links below.






Just to grab a few in a minute or two of searching the Web.



Of course not. "Christians" today come from an ever increasing number differing beliefs and or even moral standards. The word or title simply does not any longer have a very specific or standardized meaning. I am saying though, that those who reject biblical testimony regarding the creation in favor of more popular and recent theories concerning our existence, are doing more damage to biblical testimony than they probably realize. The implications of which seriously affect the gospel message itself, and or peoples trust or not in the truth of the testimony of holy scripture altogether. If the creation account actually means something so drastically different than what it plainly states, as in deep time evolutionary processes for the existence of everything, then how should all the rest of the following scriptures be viewed? Or who can argue for a literal interpretation or understanding of any of it? Since it is so very contradicting right from the beginning of its testimony.

All your argument does here is attempt to impute and reduce the paleontological, archeological, historical and literary issues in which the Bible is enmeshed down to a false dichotomy. The issues are actually on a spectrum or degree of academic measures and considerations, but it is those who insist on an conceptual a priori "either/or" approach when evaluating each and every sentence of the Bible who confuse the issues and argue that if the bible can't be seen to be literal history through and through, it opens the slippery slope and means we should toss the bible into the trashbin of what is thought of as the useless and outmoded past.

This sort of conclusion, whether it's proffered by Christians or by Atheists, is patently false and hinges on assumptions about what terms like "literal" and "truth" have to mean, assumptions which don't by any necessity carry the concrete denotations that are claimed or that are easily or measurably born out hermeneutically or historically.

So what am I saying, exactly? I'm saying that just because the Bible may not have a syllable by syllable correspondence to the reality claims which different people may make for the past, this state of affairs doesn't automatically imply that the Biblical books and letters have no substantive representational meaning reflective of the past or that they're automatically not prophetic in nature, or that if they're not "proven," then God "obviously didn't have anything to do with it."

People need to get out of their conceptual and emotionally self-imposed epistemological expectations about what and how "truth" of any kind has to manifest itself, whether in the religious sphere or in the historic or scientific, and realize these things have to be wrestled with and not all too easily canned and vacuum sealed by a priori dichotomies of personal expectation.

And what are some of the issues with the expectation of a 6,000 year old Creation? For my part, I'd use the following statements in the video below by Phil Vischer of the Holy Post podcast as a compass for where to go next:

Does the Bible Say the Earth is 6000 Years Old?​

 
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Amo2

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All your argument does here is attempt to impute and reduce the paleontological, archeological, historical and literary issues in which the Bible is enmeshed down to a false dichotomy. The issues are actually on a spectrum or degree of academic measures and considerations, but it is those who insist on an conceptual a priori "either/or" approach when evaluating each and every sentence of the Bible who confuse the issues and argue that if the bible can't be seen to be literal history through and through, it opens the slippery slope and means we should toss the bible into the trashbin of what is thought of as the useless and outmoded past.

This sort of conclusion, whether it's proffered by Christians or by Atheists, is patently false and hinges on assumptions about what terms like "literal" and "truth" have to mean, assumptions which don't by any necessity carry the concrete denotations that are claimed or that are easily or measurably born out hermeneutically or historically.

So what am I saying, exactly? I'm saying that just because the Bible may not have a syllable by syllable correspondence to the reality claims which different people may make for the past, this state of affairs doesn't automatically imply that the Biblical books and letters have no substantive representational meaning reflective of the past or that they're automatically not prophetic in nature, or that if they're not "proven," then God "obviously didn't have anything to do with it."

People need to get out of their conceptual and emotionally self-imposed epistemological expectations about what and how "truth" of any kind has to manifest itself, whether in the religious sphere or in the historic or scientific, and realize these things have to be wrestled with and not all too easily canned and vacuum sealed by a priori dichotomies of personal expectation.

And what are some of the issues with the expectation of a 6,000 year old Creation? For my part, I'd use the following statements in the video below by Phil Vischer of the Holy Post podcast as a compass for where to go next:

Does the Bible Say the Earth is 6000 Years Old?​

People, would include yourself then of course as well, would it not? Just exactly how is believing what holy scripture simply and plainly states, self-imposed epistemological expectation? And how is believing that the creation account and fourth commandment which conclusively state that the world was created in six days, really means slow development over deep time, not self-imposed epistemological expectation? They are both in fact, views accepted by those of differing faiths. All of which are of course self-imposed, or shall we say individually chosen.
 
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Amo2

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All your argument does here is attempt to impute and reduce the paleontological, archeological, historical and literary issues in which the Bible is enmeshed down to a false dichotomy. The issues are actually on a spectrum or degree of academic measures and considerations, but it is those who insist on an conceptual a priori "either/or" approach when evaluating each and every sentence of the Bible who confuse the issues and argue that if the bible can't be seen to be literal history through and through, it opens the slippery slope and means we should toss the bible into the trashbin of what is thought of as the useless and outmoded past.

This sort of conclusion, whether it's proffered by Christians or by Atheists, is patently false and hinges on assumptions about what terms like "literal" and "truth" have to mean, assumptions which don't by any necessity carry the concrete denotations that are claimed or that are easily or measurably born out hermeneutically or historically.

So what am I saying, exactly? I'm saying that just because the Bible may not have a syllable by syllable correspondence to the reality claims which different people may make for the past, this state of affairs doesn't automatically imply that the Biblical books and letters have no substantive representational meaning reflective of the past or that they're automatically not prophetic in nature, or that if they're not "proven," then God "obviously didn't have anything to do with it."

People need to get out of their conceptual and emotionally self-imposed epistemological expectations about what and how "truth" of any kind has to manifest itself, whether in the religious sphere or in the historic or scientific, and realize these things have to be wrestled with and not all too easily canned and vacuum sealed by a priori dichotomies of personal expectation.

And what are some of the issues with the expectation of a 6,000 year old Creation? For my part, I'd use the following statements in the video below by Phil Vischer of the Holy Post podcast as a compass for where to go next:

Does the Bible Say the Earth is 6000 Years Old?​

Your video above is built upon faulty premise. The majority of bible believers of the New Covenant or Old, were in fact YEC's. Not in there scientific manner of this day, but certainly as believers in a six day creation, with Adam and Eve as our original parents. At no time in history did almost all bible believers give up on a literal creation account.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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People, would include yourself then of course as well, would it not?
Yes and no.
Just exactly how is believing what holy scripture simply and plainly states, self-imposed epistemological expectation?
Each person, whether he/she does it consciously or not, tends to lean toward or choose a specific epistemological method or framework among several by which interpretative method of the Bible is then conceptualized and formalized and assumed. Each one enjoins different epistemic principles and operative definitions. So, whereas someone from the SDA or even from another fundamentalistic Christian denomination will open the Bible and assume that its every sentence is, without differentiation, "simple and plain," someone from another epistemic position will see ancient, foreign, culturally embedded statements that have to be culled for exacting meaning like an archeologist culls for artifacts in a dig. In addition to these two positions, other interpretive positions will approach the Bible in different ways yet again.

For my part, I do not assume that what each individual book in the Bible states is "simple and plain" in meaning. If they were, I don't think we'd have as much disagreement over its meaning as we currently do and there'd be little or no reason for Christian book publishers to print books presenting 3, 4, or 5 views on some specific doctrine.
And how is believing that the creation account and fourth commandment which conclusively state that the world was created in six days, really means slow development over deep time, not self-imposed epistemological expectation?
I didn't say that the creation account doesn't convey a six day creation. You're misunderstanding my primary point. My disagreement isn't about explicating a dichotomy between 6 day YEC advocates and Old Earth or Evolutionary advocates.

No, my primary point is that it would be nice if those who are Trinitarian Christians of one sort or another could generally accept each other as fellow Christians without all of the excessive nit-pick and heresy accusations that come with disagreeing with one another over who the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

In other words, I'm not saying what I'm saying here in order to imply that you need to drop your literal YEC, 6 day creation belief. I'm simply saying that there are additional things to consider where the Bible is concerned, and some people like myself take those additional academic considerations into account as well when we engage a reading and acceptance of the Bible.
They are both in fact, views accepted by those of differing faiths. All of which are of course self-imposed, or shall we say individually chosen.

They may be chosen, but they're not chosen in the same way or for the same reasons.
 
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Your video above is built upon faulty premise. The majority of bible believers of the New Covenant or Old, were in fact YEC's. Not in there scientific manner of this day, but certainly as believers in a six day creation, with Adam and Eve as our original parents. At no time in history did almost all bible believers give up on a literal creation account.

So? The majority of bible believers thousands of years ago who were YEC also thought the Sun revolved or moved around the Earth. Do I need to accomodate myself to those errors? I don't think I do.

Additionally, you might notice what Phil says about what he thinks the key interrogatives were for ancient readers. He thinks their questions about the world and what Genesis 1 and 2 were saying are different than the questions of modern day YEC advocates.
 
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Amo2

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Yes and no.

Each person, whether he/she does it consciously or not, tends to lean toward or choose a specific epistemological method or framework among several by which interpretative method of the Bible is then conceptualized and formalized and assumed. Each one enjoins different epistemic principles and operative definitions. So, whereas someone from the SDA or even from another fundamentalistic Christian denomination will open the Bible and assume that its every sentence is, without differentiation, "simple and plain," someone from another epistemic position will see ancient, foreign, culturally embedded statements that have to be culled for exacting meaning like an archeologist culls for artifacts in a dig. In addition to these two positions, other interpretive positions will approach the Bible in different ways yet again.

For my part, I do not assume that what each individual book in the Bible states is "simple and plain" in meaning. If they were, I don't think we'd have as much disagreement over its meaning as we currently do and there'd be little or no reason for Christian book publishers to print books presenting 3, 4, or 5 views on some specific doctrine.

I didn't say that the creation account doesn't convey a six day creation. You're misunderstanding my primary point. My disagreement isn't about explicating a dichotomy between 6 day YEC advocates and Old Earth or Evolutionary advocates.

No, my primary point is that it would be nice if those who are Trinitarian Christians of one sort or another could generally accept each other as fellow Christians without all of the excessive nit-pick and heresy accusations that come with disagreeing with one another over who the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

In other words, I'm not saying what I'm saying here in order to imply that you need to drop your literal YEC, 6 day creation belief. I'm simply saying that there are additional things to consider where the Bible is concerned, and some people like myself take those additional academic considerations into account as well when we engage a reading and acceptance of the Bible.


They may be chosen, but they're not chosen in the same way or for the same reasons.

Each person, whether he/she does it consciously or not, tends to lean toward or choose a specific epistemological method or framework among several by which interpretative method of the Bible is then conceptualized and formalized and assumed. Each one enjoins different epistemic principles and operative definitions. So, whereas someone from the SDA or even from another fundamentalistic Christian denomination will open the Bible and assume that its every sentence is, without differentiation, "simple and plain," someone from another epistemic position will see ancient, foreign, culturally embedded statements that have to be culled for exacting meaning like an archeologist culls for artifacts in a dig. In addition to these two positions, other interpretive positions will approach the Bible in different ways yet again.

For my part, I do not assume that what each individual book in the Bible states is "simple and plain" in meaning. If they were, I don't think we'd have as much disagreement over its meaning as we currently do and there'd be little or no reason for Christian book publishers to print books presenting 3, 4, or 5 views on some specific doctrine.

It is without question, that the capacity of humanity to complicate that which is simple, is only surpassed by the evil one himself and his angels. Whose exact purposes is to complicate simple truths unto confusion and deception, unto the destruction of as many souls as possible. Nor do I mean to express the idea at all, that God's word is simple or without great depth. To the contrary, it has a depth of meaning we shall be able to study throughout eternity. On the other hand, God is not a God of confusion, but has communicated the truth in a manner fit to be understood by those whom He has given the scriptures unto salvation. There is only one framework or method true believers should seek to properly understand holy scripture by, framework or methodology inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. Not all scripture is meant to be simple and plain to understand. Some is poetic, or symbolic, and not even meant to be understood but by those of the elect. Such as biblical prophecy.

It is the exact purpose of the evil one, to make the holy scriptures of such great contention, that a great many will avoid its teachings altogether. When our Lord warned us that those who follow Him would be persecuted as He was, this does include of course, the constant contentions and arguments of others against the simple truths He came to establish. Which very rejection, lead to His crucifixion. There is nothing wrong at all in seeking greater depth of meaning in the words and teachings of our Lord within holy scripture. This is a far cry though, from changing special creation by God in six days, into deep time slow evolutionary development over ever increasingly claimed, billions of years.

I didn't say that the creation account doesn't convey a six day creation. You're misunderstanding my primary point. My disagreement isn't about explicating a dichotomy between 6 day YEC advocates and Old Earth or Evolutionary advocates.

No, my primary point is that it would be nice if those who are Trinitarian Christians of one sort or another could generally accept each other as fellow Christians without all of the excessive nit-pick and heresy accusations that come with disagreeing with one another over who the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

In other words, I'm not saying what I'm saying here in order to imply that you need to drop your literal YEC, 6 day creation belief. I'm simply saying that there are additional things to consider where the Bible is concerned, and some people like myself take those additional academic considerations into account as well when we engage a reading and acceptance of the Bible.

Well, this thread is about six days and or 6000 years or not. So that is what I figured you were probably addressing. I agree with your statement regarding Trinitarian controversies. The issue of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is not clearly defined enough within scripture itself, to be throwing around accusations of heresy for the many slight variations which exist concerning it. There is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They are each God. Yet our God is one. I don't know why anyone thinks they are going to completely figure this one out this side of heaven. Especially in a manner everyone else will agree with and or submit to. Let alone become physically violent over, Imperially mandate, or persecute and fight literal wars over. Yet this is exactly what the evil one has desired and effectually brought about throughout history.

They may be chosen, but they're not chosen in the same way or for the same reasons.

Of course not. God alone knows the heart and real reasons involved. Hopefully, the reason is the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God upon the heart.
 
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Amo2

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So? The majority of bible believers thousands of years ago who were YEC also thought the Sun revolved or moved around the Earth. Do I need to accomodate myself to those errors? I don't think I do.

Additionally, you might notice what Phil says about what he thinks the key interrogatives were for ancient readers. He thinks their questions about the world and what Genesis 1 and 2 were saying are different than the questions of modern day YEC advocates.
The bible does not say that the sun revolves or moves around the earth. Yet today, we still speak of the sun rising or setting as though it does. This however is of course a separate issue from creation in six days, or 6000 years or not. Of course there is a difference between YEC's of the past and present according to increased knowledge. A great deal of which knowledge was introduced by YEC believing scientists. Nevertheless -

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Accumulative knowledge has been gained and lost many times over already. Especially if one considers what the people of the antediluvian world probably accomplished, being much closer to creation and therefore perfection of mind and body than we are today. To the extent that God had to destroy the world they no doubt perverted accordingly to such great mind, intellect, and ability. For this reason also did He divide humanity at the tower of Babel.

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Today, as we approach the end once again, we have achieved much accumulative knowledge and highly increased our capacity to communicate world wide again as well. The result will be the same. Self exaltation and evil desires and fulfillment unto destruction by the judgments of God. As holy scripture has predicted.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Dan1988

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Does anybody have proof that the earth and the entire universe really is 6,000 - ish years old beyond the usual arguments that science has debunked over and over again? Arguments like the rocks in the Grand Canyon or some other such weak examples? I’m looking for reputable scientists who’ve written peer reviewed papers on the subject and gained the support of other reputable scientists?
There is no way to prove anything to anyone, until you get them to accept your theory to begin with.

There are many different theories on the age of the earth, but there is no accurate scientific method to gauge the age of the earth. All of the methods are based on theories and none can be proven, so the whole debate is pointless.

Carbon dating has been debunked and so have all the other scientific methods, so we're back to square one and none the wiser. Secular science is forever evolving and yesterdays theories are trashed to make way for new theories, so secular science will never achieve any absolutes.
 
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Amo2

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There is no way to prove anything to anyone, until you get them to accept your theory to begin with.

There are many different theories on the age of the earth, but there is no accurate scientific method to gauge the age of the earth. All of the methods are based on theories and none can be proven, so the whole debate is pointless.

Carbon dating has been debunked and so have all the other scientific methods, so we're back to square one and none the wiser. Secular science is forever evolving and yesterdays theories are trashed to make way for new theories, so secular science will never achieve any absolutes.
Yes. Faith plays a large part as the basis of any theory of course. Regarding that which cannot be observed, tested, or known without certain assumptions.
 
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Job 33:6

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People, would include yourself then of course as well, would it not? Just exactly how is believing what holy scripture simply and plainly states, self-imposed epistemological expectation? And how is believing that the creation account and fourth commandment which conclusively state that the world was created in six days, really means slow development over deep time, not self-imposed epistemological expectation? They are both in fact, views accepted by those of differing faiths. All of which are of course self-imposed, or shall we say individually chosen.
Have you considered the fact that the Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it?

Genesis 1:1-2 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—
 
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