The Danger of "Keeping Sabbath."

Leaf473 said:

Looking back at my many conversations with seventh day observers, I can't recall any of them expressing confidence that they were saved.

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Brother, I don't have confidence when I look at myself, but I have confidence when I look at Jesus. What I need to do is keep my eye on Jesus to have confidence. In the following passage, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit" in Jesus, because God is Spirit. Where we must "image" or copy our selves to the pattern of Jesus' example, as we "see" our lives "reflect" Jesus as we would see ourselves externally in a mirror, comparing ourselves to Jesus' in the flesh model of obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience, which leads to death in a "veil" of obedience to replacement human traditions that disobey the Ten Commandments, contradicting the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. A "veil", like our modern Sunday human tradition, replaces God's Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment, when Paul tells us such replacements that keep the sin God's Ten Commandments are meant to remove kill and only obeying the Ten Commandments as Jesus shows us how to obey them saves from sin. Notice the external nature of reflecting what we see in Jesus in the flesh is an external example-Spirit, an external-visible example "Spirit" of obedience. Jesus, in the flesh life of obedience, is the "Spirit" to "image", because Jesus is a visible in the flesh "Spirit" for us to model after His obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj said:

Brother, I don't have confidence when I look at myself, but I have confidence when I look at Jesus. What I need to do is keep my eye on Jesus to have confidence. In the following passage, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit" in Jesus, because God is Spirit. Where we must "image" or copy our selves to the pattern of Jesus' example, as we "see" our lives "reflect" Jesus as we would see ourselves externally in a mirror, comparing ourselves to Jesus' in the flesh model of obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience, which leads to death in a "veil" of obedience to replacement human traditions that disobey the Ten Commandments, contradicting the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. A "veil", like our modern Sunday human tradition, replaces God's Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment, when Paul tells us such replacements that keep the sin God's Ten Commandments are meant to remove kill and only obeying the Ten Commandments as Jesus shows us how to obey them saves from sin. Notice the external nature of reflecting what we see in Jesus in the flesh is an external example-Spirit, an external-visible example "Spirit" of obedience. Jesus, in the flesh life of obedience, is the "Spirit" to "image", because Jesus is a visible in the flesh "Spirit" for us to model after His obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience.

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed properly the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) removed can see and reflect the glory (character) of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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Hello, brother! Do you know that you have eternal life, then?

Peace be with you

Leaf473 said:

Hello, brother! Do you know that you have eternal life, then? Peace be with you

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Brother, as long as I go to the temple daily seeking forgiveness for disobedience, I have eternal life. However, if, like David, I do not go to the temple daily to seek forgiveness for disobedience, then, like David, I am lost in sin. If David had gone to the temple, he would have been saved from his sin, but since he did not go to the temple, David was lost in sin, until he gained a new faith through the prophet Nathan.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Mercy Shown said:

You have the veil all wrong. The tearing of the veil gives us access to God, not the Ten-Commandments. God wants our righteousness to exceed the ten commandments. He does not want us to follow the old way but to serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

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Brother, the new way of the Spirit is obedience to the Ten Commandments plus one more for a total of Eleven Commandments. Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human system of "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar, instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His previous Ten Commandments as well as the new Eleventh Commandment.


The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj said:

Brother, as long as I go to the temple daily seeking forgiveness for disobedience, I have eternal life. However, if, like David, I do not go to the temple daily to seek forgiveness for disobedience, then, like David, I am lost in sin. If David had gone to the temple,

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Hello brother,

So maybe not a big point, but if I remember right, the temple wasn't built until Solomon's day.

Peace be with you!

guevaraj said:

...he would have been saved from his sin, but since he did not go to the temple, David was lost in sin, until he gained a new faith through the prophet Nathan.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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Leaf473 said:

if I remember right, the temple wasn't built until Solomon's day.

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Brother, before that building there was the portable tabernacle, which is a "copy", a "shadow" of the real one in "heaven" where Jesus intercedes for us daily as our High Priest, through prayer, faster than animal sacrifices. Prayer for much forgiveness every day for disobeying the greater righteousness of the current Eleven Commandments in the new covenant where Jesus has added one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj said:

Brother, before that building there was the portable tabernacle,

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That's right, brother! Was David and everyone else back them supposed to go to the portable Tabernacle every day?

Peace be with you!

guevaraj said:

...which is a "copy", a "shadow" of the real one in "heaven" where Jesus intercedes for us daily as our High Priest, through prayer, faster than animal sacrifices. Prayer for much forgiveness every day for disobeying the greater righteousness of the current Eleven Commandments in the new covenant where Jesus has added one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” (Hebrews 8:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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Leaf473 said:

Was David and everyone else back them supposed to go to the portable Tabernacle every day?

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Brother, no! The "daily" comes from the point of view of our High Priest's daily intercession in the heavenly temple and not from our point of view of needing to go to the temple every day. The daily intercession of Jesus is in the following passage. He who goes to an earthly confessional booth to gain forgiveness for his sins is putting aside the worship due Jesus in heaven in the following passage. Jesus serves daily as our High Priest in the heavenly temple to forgive sins. This heavenly ministry was cast down to earth by the bishops of Rome with the confessional, who were also those who were the official state church of the Roman Empire who destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The word "sacrifices" crossed out after the word "daily", is not in the original and was added to the Septuagint Hebrew to Greek translation. The translators, thinking they were helping, when Jesus' "daily" forgiveness does not cause Him to die over and over again, to forgive our past sins when we turn daily in prayer to Jesus for the forgiveness of our past sins, like the death of so many animal sacrifices in the stand-in earthly temple "copy" before Jesus' death. Jesus' single death validates all His countless forgiveness prior and after His death in his daily service as our High Priest in the heavenly temple.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj said:

It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did. Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (Daniel 8:11-13 NLT)

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That is a terrible translation

guevaraj said:

Brother, no! The "daily" comes from the point of view of our High Priest's daily intercession in the heavenly temple and not from our point of view of needing to go to the temple every day. The daily intercession of Jesus is in the following passage. He who goes to an earthly confessional booth to gain forgiveness for his sins is putting aside the worship due Jesus in heaven in the following passage. Jesus serves daily as our High Priest in the heavenly temple to forgive sins. This heavenly ministry was cast down to earth by the bishops of Rome with the confessional, who were also those who were the official state church of the Roman Empire who destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The word "sacrifices" crossed out after the word "daily", is not in the original and was added to the Septuagint Hebrew to Greek translation. The translators, thinking they were helping, when Jesus' "daily" forgiveness does not cause Him to die over and over again,

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guevaraj said:

...to forgive our past sins when we turn daily in prayer to Jesus for the forgiveness of our past sins,

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I think I'd want to do it 24/7! We're probably thinking the same thing on this

Peace be with you, my brother!!

guevaraj said:

...like the death of so many animal sacrifices in the stand-in earthly temple "copy" before Jesus' death. Jesus' single death validates all His countless forgiveness prior and after His death in his daily service as our High Priest in the heavenly temple.

It even challenged the Commander of heaven’s army by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. The army of heaven was restrained from responding to this rebellion. So the daily sacrifice was halted, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did. Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” (Daniel 8:11-13 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

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HIM said:

That is a terrible translation

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Brother, I see a difference in how "army" is translated.


Either the army of heaven above or an earthly army below, where the word translated "host" can refer to an army.


United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The danger of keeping the Sabbath is that man cannot keep it according to the demands of the commandment. Trying to keep the Sabbath places the tryers to the demands of the old covenant that a whole nation failed to keep.

Bob S said:

The danger of keeping the Sabbath is that man cannot keep it according to the demands of the commandment. Trying to keep the Sabbath places the tryers to the demands of the old covenant that a whole nation failed to keep.

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The Israelites/Jews failed to stay away from idolatry. Is that also impossible?

Isaiah 58: 1 CRY aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
3 ¶ Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 ¶ Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

So you can't stop doing your own thing on Sabbath? You can't focus on God one day a week and take delight in spending Sabbath in communion with God? That's too hard for you? Can you stop smiting with the fist of wickedness and feed the hungry and clothe the naked the rest of the week? Those are the sins of the Jews of Isaiah's day that got the temple and Jerusalem destroyed and had to spend 70 years in captivity.

Gary K said:

The Israelites/Jews failed to stay away from idolatry. Is that also impossible?

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Well, you asked the question, and I will give you an answer. Do you have photographs sitting around your home? According to your prophet's angel, those things are idols. Yep, read it for yourself. I bet you have never heard of such a thing. The church likes to hide things like her words on the subject under a bushel.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}

This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Gary K said:

So you can't stop doing your own thing on Sabbath? You can't focus on God one day a week and take delight in spending Sabbath in communion with God? That's too hard for you? Can you stop smiting with the fist of wickedness and feed the hungry and clothe the naked the rest of the week? Those are the sins of the Jews of Isaiah's day that got the temple and Jerusalem destroyed and had to spend 70 years in captivity.

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Why should I try? New Covenant Christians are not under the Sinai Covenant. There is no command to keep a day. Only Israelites were subject to the command to keep the Sabbath and THAT ENDED WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF THE NEW AND BETTER COVENANT.

Bob S said:

Well, you asked the question, and I will give you an answer. Do you have photographs sitting around your home? According to your prophet's angel, those things are idols. Yep, read it for yourself. I bet you have never heard of such a thing. The church likes to hide things like her words on the subject under a bushel.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}

As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}

This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Why should I try? New Covenant Christians are not under the Sinai Covenant. There is no command to keep a day. Only Israelites were subject to the command to keep the Sabbath and THAT ENDED WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF THE NEW AND BETTER COVENANT.

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So that's your answer to Isaiah 58? You refuse to answer Biblical questions that show what sin is and how the Jews broke God's law. Why? Because it shows God's law can be kept.

You have never shown any Biblical covenant made with Gentiles. Are you a Jew/Israelite that the new covenant should apply to you for it was given to the nations of Israel and Judah?