New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

Douggg said:
The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy ~~court~~.

The veil is what separated the holy of holies room from the holy room.

The naos is the two roomed sanctuary building.

court (the free dictionary)
Quote from the above site:
1. (Architecture) an area of ground wholly or partly surrounded by walls or buildings
2. (Architecture) (capital when part of a name)
a. a block of flats: Selwyn Court.
b. a mansion or country house
c. a short street, sometimes closed at one end
3. (Architecture) a space inside a building, sometimes surrounded with galleries
4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy)
a. the residence, retinues, or household of a sovereign or nobleman
b. (as modifier): a court ball.
5. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a sovereign or prince and his retinue, advisers, etc
6. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any formal assembly, reception, etc, held by a sovereign or nobleman with his courtiers

court - Wiktionary

(social) Royal society.
The residence of a sovereign, prince, nobleman, or other dignitary; a palace.
The noblemen visited the queen in her court.

Obviously, when used in reference to the temple, the holy place = the holy court = a room inside a structure, and in the case of the temple, it was surrounded by the courtyard i.e the courtyard that surrounds the structure. The holy court/place and holy of hollies, that were separated by the veil, were called _ _ _ _ in the Greek (but only until the verses which talk about the ..................... of the ............... .

I'm not filling in the blanks for you again. Your mind is still blank. It just remains blank (groan).

Maybe what you need is a school-teacher who teaches English.

Douggg · Jan 3, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
court (the free dictionary)
Quote from the above site:
1. (Architecture) an area of ground wholly or partly surrounded by walls or buildings
2. (Architecture) (capital when part of a name)
a. a block of flats: Selwyn Court.
b. a mansion or country house
c. a short street, sometimes closed at one end
3. (Architecture) a space inside a building, sometimes surrounded with galleries
4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy)
a. the residence, retinues, or household of a sovereign or nobleman
b. (as modifier): a court ball.
5. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a sovereign or prince and his retinue, advisers, etc
6. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any formal assembly, reception, etc, held by a sovereign or nobleman with his courtiers

court - Wiktionary

(social) Royal society.
The residence of a sovereign, prince, nobleman, or other dignitary; a palace.
The noblemen visited the queen in her court.

Obviously, when used in reference to the temple, the holy place = the holy court = a room inside a structure, and in the case of the temple, it was surrounded by the courtyard i.e the courtyard that surrounds the structure. The holy court/place and holy of hollies, that were separated by the veil, were called _ _ _ _ in the Greek (but only until the verses which talk about the ..................... of the ............... .

I'm not filling in the blanks for you again. Your mind is still blank. It just remains blank (groan).

Maybe what you need is a school-teacher who teaches English.

Again how many rooms do you think were in the sanctuary building?

btw, court architecturally is like a big big room, in a mansion, where guests would be received - such as a king's court. That's not the case in the sanctuary building.

You are misusing the word holy court, and not recognizing the holy room in the sanctuary building. Which only certain priests could go into the holy room (not a court) to place the show bread, and offer incense at the altar of incense right in front of the curtain, which represented the prayers of the people.

The holy court in the temple complex is where the burnt offering altar was and the priests conducted the sacrifices.

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

claninja said:
revelation 11:1-2 clearly makes a distinction between the temple (naos) and the outer court and city of Jerusalem.

Yes but in the New Testament, up until Jesus died on the cross, this distinction was always made in the temple at Jerusalem also, by use of the Greek words naos for the holy place, and hieron for the outer court, separating the holy (the holy court and sanctuary, i.e naos) from the "not holy" (i.e hieron). Let's call it the profane.

But this distinction between the profane and the holy with regards to the temple at Jerusalem stopped being made after the veil was torn. From then on the distinction was made between

i. The holy place (the church, and only the church now being called the naos, i.e the holy place and holy holies), and

ii. The temple at Jerusalem (from now only called the hieron, regardless of whether or not what was previously considered the holy place, is being spoken of).

The temple that still stood at Jerusalem after Christ's death was no longer considered the holy place by God. The city where the people lived was likewise no longer considered the holy city by God.

Christians understand this.

I'll say that again: Christians understand this.

1. What year was the temple destroyed?
70 A.D

2. How long before the temple was destroyed was the veil in the naos torn in two?
Around 40 years before, circa 30 A.D

3. Why does the Greek New Testament stop using the word naos in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the verses (in each of the three synoptic gospels) which mention the tearing of the veil?
Because the Jerusalem temple was no longer considered the holy place. The church was.

4. Why does the Greek New Testament only use the word naos in reference to the church after Jesus died on the cross, even though the temple still stood for another 40 years after the veil was torn?
Because of (3) above.

5. Why, after the tearing of the veil, does the Greek use only the word hieron whenever the temple in Jerusalem is being mentioned?
Because of (3) above.

6. Why does the Revelation call the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, and Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt"?
Because Jerusalem was no longer considered the holy city after Christ died. The spiritual city which is made up of the souls of the saints on earth and in heaven became the only city considered the holy city by God.

Again, Christians understand this.

The difference between the Old Testament times and New Testament times, as far as the citizens of the nation are concerned, is that those in Christ (the Greek used the word naos in reference to Christ's body when He mentioned His own body as the temple) are in a New Testament Temple.

The Jerusalem which Paul said was in bondage with her children and which Revelation calls Sodom and Egypt was not considered the holy city anymore, any more than the temple which remained there till 70 A.D was considered the holy place or sanctuary of God (i.e naos) after Christ died on the cross and the veil was torn in two.

The outer court was always called hieron, i.e it was never considered part of the sanctuary, which was called naos. Not even before the death of Christ. Since the saints exist only in Christ, i.e in the naos, why would the outer court not be left out of being measured in Revelation 11:1-2?

Why would Jerusalem on earth be regarded as the holy city when:

1. Paul said she was in bondage with her children; and
2. Revelation calls her "Sodom and Egypt"; and
3. Revelation calls the city of the saints who are in Christ the holy city three times?

Can you answer the above questions without answering them with your own questions, please?

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

Douggg said:
Again how many rooms do you think were in the sanctuary building?

btw, court architecturally is like a big big room, in a mansion, where guests would be received - such as a king's court. That's not the case in the sanctuary building.

You are misuing the word holy court, and not recognizing the holy room in the sanctuary building. Which only certain priests could go into the holy room (not a court) to place the show bread, and offer incense at the altar of incense right in front of the curtain, which represented the prayers of the people.

The holy court in the temple complex is where the burnt offering altar was and the priests conducted the sacrifices.

I'm not answering your ridiculous questions anymore. This is the last time:

Even if it was one rectangular space separated into two rooms by the veil, it was still two rooms, one called the holy court, and one called the holy of holies.

I suppose you want it to be separated by a wall because in your "qualified" (unqualified) opinion, the veil did not suffice?

No more of your ridiculous questions will be answered.

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

grafted branch said:
Ok, Hebrews 12:22 says we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I’ve been interpreting this to mean that we have spiritually come to the New Heavens/New Earth (behold all things are become new).

I think we would agree that the naos is currently not physical but spiritual. Do you see the church itself not coming to the heavenly Jerusalem but the true believers do?

No. I don't even understand what your question is, actually.
We are in Christ now and Christ is in us now. The souls of the saints who are on earth and in Christ now and the souls of the saints who have died in Christ and gone to be with Christ who are in Christ now = the New Jerusalem.

It is not a physical city, IMO (maybe in your opinion and the opinion of others, but not mine).

Revelation is using a lot of metaphor and the Revelation is being signified (Revelation 1:1), so it is also highly symbolic. One day, God will make all things new, and that spiritual city populated by the souls of saints who are in Christ, both of those who are on earth and of those who are in heaven, is going to come down from heaven where Christ dwells, to be on the earth in the new heavens and the new earth. The temple of God will be with us on earth, and Jesus Himself is the temple of God.

You need to attempt to understand everything we have been taught about Christ in us, and we in Him, and also the abundant use of metaphor when you read Revelation.

Douggg · Jan 3, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Even if it was one rectangular space separated into two rooms by the veil, it was still two rooms, one called the holy court, and one called the holy of holies.

No, it was called the holy place. There are many many pictorial renditions on the internet of the interior layout of the sanctuary building, showing the holy place and the Holy of Holies separated by the curtain.

The holy court was outside where the burnt offering altar was and the priest conducted the animal sacrifices.

The Revelation 11:1-2 temple complex to be built will look like this. The inner court (the holy court) minus the outer court. It will replicate the ten tabernacle complex in the Exodus.

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

grafted branch said:
Can we go back to Ephesian 2:11-13 for a moment? Verse 13 says ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Wouldn’t the blood of Christ be what allows Gentiles to now be included in the covenants of promise?

The blood of Christ was needed in order for those who believed the Word of God like Abraham did (both Israelites and Gentiles) to be included in the covenants of the promise before Christ shed His blood. The sacrificial Lamb and Day of Atonement were all part of the pictures of this found in the Law, which is the shadow of Christ. Lift your mind out of time when you read the Bible because Christ existed before time.

@grafted branch I added to this to help you to understand:

The blood of Christ became necessary to receive God's grace and have a relationship with God the very moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

God's grace is free to us but was very costly to God: It was bought with the blood of Christ. So whether Noah, Abraham, or Moses, or us, the way to receive God's grace is through faith in the Word of God, i.e believing God. Noah believed God. Abraham believed God.

Jesus is the Word of God.

So whether we believe the Word of God 1,900+ years after the time Christ shed His blood and know what we know today, or whether we lived more than 1,900 years before the time Christ shed His blood and did not know what we know today, the way to receive God's grace and have a relationship with God is through faith in the Word of God, i.e believing God.

grafted branch said:
If it was the genetic descendants that were the torch-bearers of the ark and only a Levite could be a priest, then Gentiles were not part of the commonwealth of Israel, at least in part, because of their genetics. So in Ephesians 2:11-13 I don’t think we can’t rule out that Paul could have been referring to genetics.

It depended on the sovereignty of God and it is God's election. If only Levites could be priests then by the same token no Jew could be torch-bearers because the Jews (Judah) were not Levites, and the tribe of Levi was one of the ten northern tribes.

grafted branch said:
Prior to the cross we both agree that it would be impossible for a Gentile nation to get the ark and obey Gods commandments because genetically Israel was to bear the ark. So I would say genetics did play a part in at least some of the promises made by God.

"In Isaac your seed shall be called". God had purposed to bring He through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed, and in whom there is neither Jew nor Gentile, into the world through the genetic descendants of Abraham, so that Abraham could become the father of many nations, as God had promised. Israel also always had many Gentiles thrown into their seed-mixture, such as Ruth, the ancestor of king David, the ancestor, through Mary, of Jesus.

Genetics only mattered in terms of God's election, which election only mattered in terms of God's purpose: i.e to have a nation through whom Christ our Savior would come into the world, and God chose a nation of people who were genetically descended from someone who was considered righteous because when he received the Word of God, he believed God.

I think that perhaps instead of understanding the place of the genetics in God's election which was a necessary part of God's plan, you have exaggerated the importance of the genetics in your mind.

One Son · Jan 3, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Yes but in the New Testament, up until Jesus died on the cross, this distinction was always made in the temple at Jerusalem also, by use of the Greek words naos for the holy place, and hieron for the outer court, separating the holy (the holy court and sanctuary, i.e naos) from the "not holy" (i.e hieron). Let's call it the profane.

But this distinction between the profane and the holy with regards to the temple at Jerusalem stopped being made after the veil was torn. From then on the distinction was made between

i. The holy place (the church, and only the church now being called the naos, i.e the holy place and holy holies), and

ii. The temple at Jerusalem (from now only called the hieron, regardless of whether or not what was previously considered the holy place, is being spoken of).

The temple that still stood at Jerusalem after Christ's death was no longer considered the holy place by God. The city where the people lived was likewise no longer considered the holy city by God.

Christians understand this.

I'll say that again: Christians understand this.

1. What year was the temple destroyed?
70 A.D

2. How long before the temple was destroyed was the veil in the naos torn in two?
Around 40 years before, circa 30 A.D

3. Why does the Greek New Testament stop using the word naos in reference to the Jerusalem temple after the verses (in each of the three synoptic gospels) which mention the tearing of the veil?
Because the Jerusalem temple was no longer considered the holy place. The church was.

4. Why does the Greek New Testament only use the word naos in reference to the church after Jesus died on the cross, even though the temple still stood for another 40 years after the veil was torn?
Because of (3) above.

5. Why, after the tearing of the veil, does the Greek use only the word hieron whenever the temple in Jerusalem is being mentioned?
Because of (3) above.

6. Why does the Revelation call the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, and Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt"?
Because Jerusalem was no longer considered the holy city after Christ died. The spiritual city which is made up of the souls of the saints on earth and in heaven became the only city considered the holy city by God.

Again, Christians understand this.

The difference between the Old Testament times and New Testament times, as far as the citizens of the nation are concerned, is that those in Christ (the Greek used the word naos in reference to Christ's body when He mentioned His own body as the temple) are in a New Testament Temple.

The Jerusalem which Paul said was in bondage with her children and which Revelation calls Sodom and Egypt was not considered the holy city anymore, any more than the temple which remained there till 70 A.D was considered the holy place or sanctuary of God (i.e naos) after Christ died on the cross and the veil was torn in two.

The outer court was always called hieron, i.e it was never considered part of the sanctuary, which was called naos. Not even before the death of Christ. Since the saints exist only in Christ, i.e in the naos, why would the outer court not be left out of being measured in Revelation 11:1-2?

Why would Jerusalem on earth be regarded as the holy city when:

1. Paul said she was in bondage with her children; and
2. Revelation calls her "Sodom and Egypt"; and
3. Revelation calls the city of the saints who are in Christ the holy city three times?

Can you answer the above questions without answering them with your own questions, please?

Jer.3:14(ASV) Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 and I will give you shepherds according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16 And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land(earth), in those days, saith Jehovah, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of Jehovah; neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more. 17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land(earth) of the north to the land(earth) that I gave for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Rev.22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein(her)#: and his servants shall serve him; 4and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. 5And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.(ages of the ages).

# Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Feminine 3rd Person Singular

The Greek Personal Possessive Pronoun

https://www.logosapostolic.org › greek › personal.htm
Also αὐτοῖς is PPr-3DP is Personal Pronoun - 3rd Person Dative Plural. TRANSLATIONS 1st Person: Singular "I" and "me", plural "we" and "us". 2rd Person Singular and plural "you". 3rd Person Masculine singular "he" and "him", plural "they" and "them". 3rd Person Feminine singular "she" and "her", plural "they" and "them".

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

One Son said:
Jer.3:14(ASV) Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

Yes.
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."
27 And this word, "Yet once more," signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, so that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear,
29 for also, "Our God is a consuming fire."

Zao is life · Jan 3, 2022

One Son said:
Jer.3:14(ASV) Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 and I will give you shepherds according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16 And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land(earth), in those days, saith Jehovah, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of Jehovah; neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more. 17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land(earth) of the north to the land(earth) that I gave for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Rev.22:1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein(her)#: and his servants shall serve him; 4and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. 5And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.(ages of the ages).

# Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Feminine 3rd Person Singular

The Greek Personal Possessive Pronoun
https://www.logosapostolic.org › greek › personal.htm
Also αὐτοῖς is PPr-3DP is Personal Pronoun - 3rd Person Dative Plural. TRANSLATIONS 1st Person: Singular "I" and "me", plural "we" and "us". 2rd Person Singular and plural "you". 3rd Person Masculine singular "he" and "him", plural "they" and "them". 3rd Person Feminine singular "she" and "her", plural "they" and "them".

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

If you are stating in your post that Jeremiah 3:14-18 is referring to the New Heavens and New Earth, and that Jerusalem in those verses is referring to New Jerusalem, then Yes, I agree.

My apologies if I'm confused about your post in the above regard. It's just that there are so many people who post here who will quote Jeremiah 3:14-18 and imply that it's to be fulfilled in the Jerusalem which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt which Paul says is in bondage with her children, and has nothing to do with New Jerusalem and the New Heavens and New Earth.

grafted branch · Jan 3, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
No. I don't even understand what your question is, actually.
We are in Christ now and Christ is in us now. The souls of the saints who are on earth and in Christ now and the souls of the saints who have died in Christ and gone to be with Christ who are in Christ now = the New Jerusalem.

It is not a physical city, IMO (maybe in your opinion and the opinion of others, but not mine).

Revelation is using a lot of metaphor and the Revelation is being signified (Revelation 1:1), so it is also highly symbolic. One day, God will make all things new, and that spiritual city populated by the souls of saints who are in Christ, both of those who are on earth and of those who are in heaven, is going to come down from heaven where Christ dwells, to be on the earth in the new heavens and the new earth. The temple of God will be with us on earth, and Jesus Himself is the temple of God.

You need to attempt to understand everything we have been taught about Christ in us, and we in Him, and also the abundant use of metaphor when you read Revelation.

I looked back through the posts and I think I’ve found where I missed seeing your view.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Christ is our temple. Christ is in you. You are in the world. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places. Ever since Christ was on the earth (and He was the temple of God on earth), part of New Jerusalem is already on earth, and always has been (because we are now the temple of God on earth).

In this post you say part of New Jerusalem is on earth, meaning the temple of New Jerusalem is currently on earth.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Yes. Revelation 21:27 is talking about New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and New Earth, not about the church now. Lots of false "doctrines of Jezebel" enter in and defile the church that exists now.

Here you’re making the point that currently there is corruption in the church and the description of New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:27 can’t apply to the current church.

When I look at this it seems you hold the view that the temple (naos) in New Jerusalem has corruption in it and will have the son of perdition in it. The statement in Revelation 21:27 about nothing that defileth entering into New Jerusalem has to still be future because of the current corruption that is in the temple.

So, if I understand you correctly the temple in New Jerusalem starts out unstable with corruption and ends up stable with corruption never entering into it again at some future point.
I hope this is correct, let me know if it’s not.

Zao is life · Jan 4, 2022

grafted branch said:
Here you’re making the point that currently there is corruption in the church and the description of New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:27 can’t apply to the current church.

So, if I understand you correctly the temple in New Jerusalem starts out unstable with corruption and ends up stable with corruption never entering into it again at some future point.
I hope this is correct, let me know if it’s not.

Let's put it this way.

There are currently (before the NHNE comes) two sections in the city of God, i.e the part that's on the earth, and the part that's in heaven.

The part of New Jerusalem that is in heaven is not "going to be" "stable with corruption never entering into it again", because it already is.

As far as the part that is on earth is concerned, yes, for now it contains corruption:

1 Corinthians 3
16 Do you not know that you are a temple (naos) of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple (naos) of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

2 Corinthians 6
16 And what agreement does a temple (naos) of God have with idols? For you are the temple (naos) of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple (naos) of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

I believe he or they claim to be God (beware the "latter day rain" and the "manifest sons of God" movement, which goes under a number of different names).

What's being described in 2 Thessalonians is an idol in the temple (naos) of God. They fall away from the true faith. It's an abomination that is to cause desolation:

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Matthew 24

I believe that any abomination of desolation that was set up in the temple before this final one, is a biblical type or forerunner of this final one to come. I believe that's why it is written, "let him who reads understand".

15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).

Concentrate on the key words now that I'm about to underline in all scriptures quoted below, so that you can see why I say what I'm about to say:

I believe that the abomination of desolation that caused the destruction of the temple (Christ) in A.D 30 was Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition who betrayed his Lord and his brethren, of whom it is written that Satan entered into him (John 13:27) *

* There are only two men called the son of perdition in the New Testament:

i. Judas Iscariot; and
ii. The man of sin, who is also called,

* the lawless one.

IMPORTANT: Notice how betrayal and lawlessness and Satan are connected to:

i. Judas Iscariot; and
ii. Matthew 24, the great tribulation that leads to the return of Christ; and
iii. The apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the second and final son of perdition mentioned in the New Testament:

Matthew 24
9 At that time (Greek: τότε) they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness shall abound, the love of many will become cold.

13 But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
17 Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;
18 nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes...

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:22)

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I believe that whatever part of the above prophecy might be considered to have been fulfilled in the past, became a type of what is to come.

claninja · Jan 4, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Yes but in the New Testament, up until Jesus died on the cross, this distinction was always made in the temple at Jerusalem also, by use of the Greek words naos for the holy place, and hieron for the outer court, separating the holy (the holy court and sanctuary, i.e naos) from the "not holy" (i.e hieron). Let's call it the profane.

I think it’s important to recognize that that the word “Hieron” includes the sanctuary, where the priests served and the high priest went once a year. “Hieron” does not only mean outer courts. “Hieron” means the temple complex and includes the outer courts, it’s buildings, and also the central sanctuary.

We know this because Jesus stated “not one stone would stand upon another” in regards to the “Hieron”. And we know this included the complete destruction of the central sanctuary, NOT just the outer courts.

Matthew 24:1-2 As Jesus left the temple (Hieron) and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

also, helps word studies include the central sanctuary in the definition of “Hieron”

2411 hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
But this distinction between the profane and the holy with regards to the temple at Jerusalem stopped being made after the veil was torn. From then on the distinction was made between

I would have to ask, where is ONLY the sanctuary, where the priests served and the high priest went once a year, mentioned following the tearing of the veil?

if its not mentioned again in scripture, then this is not really an argument.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The city where the people lived was likewise no longer considered the holy city by God.

Christians understand this.

Did the Holy Spirit inspired matthew not understand when he called the earthly Jerusalem the holy city?

Matthew wrote AFTER the resurrection of Christ, and before it’s desolation, that the earthly Jerusalem was the Holy City.

Matthew 27:53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

so while YOU interpret it as not holy, Matthew believed it still to be Holy following Christs resurrection and prior to its desolation.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The outer court was always called hieron, i.e it was never considered part of the sanctuary, which was called naos.

incorrect. Notice helps word studies include the central sanctuary in the definition of “Hieron”.

2411 hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
5. Why, after the tearing of the veil, does the Greek use only the word hieron whenever the temple in Jerusalem is being mentioned?

Depends on the context in which the earthly Temple is being spoke of. If only the central sanctuary is being talked about, “naos” would be used. If the entire complex is being talked about then “Hieron” is used.

I can’t seem to find any verses, following the tearing of the veil, where the context clearly indicates the earthly temple, and is only mentioning the central sanctuary. Thus, your argument doesn’t really make sense.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Since the saints exist only in Christ, i.e in the naos, why would the outer court not be left out of being measured in Revelation 11:1-2?

I guess I’m not understanding your question.

So i need to ask a clarifying question.

If the temple “naos” symbolizes the body of Christ and is measured, what does the outer court and city, which is not measured, but trampled upon by the nations represent?

I believe the measured “naos” in revelation 11:1 can absolutely be understood as the body of Christ.

I believe the outer courts and city which were not measured, in vs 2, represent earthly Jerusalem, which was called the holy city, until it’s complete and utter desolation, when it was trampled by the nations.

Zao is life · Jan 4, 2022

claninja said:
I think it’s important to recognize that that the word “Hieron” includes the sanctuary, where the priests served and the high priest went once a year. “Hieron” does not only mean outer courts. “Hieron” means the temple complex and includes the outer courts, it’s buildings, and also the central sanctuary.

I think it's even more important for Christians who love the truth to recognize that what you say above is a totally, 100% false statement, and since you introduce your post with a falsehood, it can only be assumed that it must be in order that you can hang onto false, non-Christian theology. People who who attempt to make facts non-facts almost always have an ulterior motive. i.e creating their own truth and attempting to suppress the truth.

Therefore I'm not answering you henceforth.

claninja · Jan 4, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I think it's even more important for Christians who love the truth to recognize that what you say above is a totally, 100% false statement, and since you introduce your post with a falsehood, it can only be assumed that it must be in order that you can hang onto false, non-Christian theology. People who who attempt to make facts non-facts almost always have an ulterior motive.

Therefore I'm not answering you henceforth.

This very generic non-response with zero evidence of how I am 100% false, is very telling.

helps word studies demonstrates that “Hieron” does indeed include the central sanctuary. It is Your claim that has been demonstrated as false.

2411 hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

Zao is life · Jan 4, 2022

claninja said:
This very generic non-response with zero evidence of how I am 100% false, is very telling.

helps word studies demonstrates that “Hieron” does indeed include the central sanctuary. It is Your claim that has been demonstrated as false.

2411 hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

I provided enough evidence, linked to enough 100% reliable external resources, and quoted two different dictionaries (two witnesses + more) that 100% support the fact that the Greek word hieron does not include the holy court or holy of holies. I'm not going to repeat all my posts in this thread merely because you are determined to open your post with a falsehood which is produced from your motive: Trying to prove your error to be Christian doctrine, or Christian theology.

Like I said, Christians understand this.

claninja · Jan 4, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I provided enough evidence, linked to enough 100% reliable external resources, and quoted two different dictionaries (two witnesses + more) that 100% support the fact that hieron does not include the holy court or holy of holies. I'm not going to repeat all my posts in this thread merely because you are determined to open your post with a falsehood which is produced from your motive: Trying to prove your error to be Christian doctrine, or Christian theology.

Like I said, Christians understand this.

so helps word studies definition of “Hieron” is wrong?

Timtofly · Jan 4, 2022

Douggg said:
I certainly agree.

Separately, regarding the temple that John was told to measure.

I think that John was told to measure the temple because it will be downsized, especially the sanctuary building, from what John was accustomed to seeing in his day.

The temple in John's day took decades to build. But because the end times temple that the Antichrist will sit in has to be built in a compressed amount of time, I think the sanctuary building will be a minimal size and perhaps a smaller court - to get the animal sacrifices going as soon as possible.

The minimum size for the sanctuary, if they follow the pattern coming out of Egypt - would be about 30ft by 15ft - two chambers. Which that could be constructed quiet quickly.

It is not a sacrificial time like the tabernacle or Solomon's Temple. It does not have a Holy of Holies. It has a throne instead. There is no sitting in former temples. Of course this Temple is totally different than any other Temple in Scripture. It is the seat of Christ ruling as Prince. It is the one in Matthew 25:31.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The Temple is the place where this throne resides. Why would it take long to build, since all the angels are here on earth? Not to mention, Christ could just speak it into existence, as well.

Timtofly · Jan 4, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
No. The New Jerusalem is not separated by a thousand years between the New Testament temple John is speaking of in Revelation 11:1-2 and the New Heavens and New Earth. There is no thousand-year gap between the blessing of those who came out from great tribulation and the blessing described in New Jerusalem:

Key statements in each of the two passages below:

1. Throne of God/Tabernacle of God with the people mentioned below.
2. God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.
3. They will drink from the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
5 And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

The saints who come out of the great tribulation are seen in New Jerusalem immediately following the close of this current Age.

Of course there is a "gap". It is called Revelation 20. To those with the Lord, it will be a day. For those on earth it will be 1000 years.

Some have been there for the last 1991 years. Do you call the last 1991 years, a gap?

Timtofly · Jan 4, 2022

DavidPT said:
Preterists need the temple to be literal in order for it to agree with their interpretations involving 70 AD. You need it to be literal in order to agree with your literal interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for one.

John, the one who saw the visions doesn't need it to be literal for either of those reasons. He doesn't need it be a literal temple in order to make it fit with 70 AD. He doesn't need it to be a literal temple in order to make it fit with your literal interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

The kind of work I have done in the past involves the measuring of things. If I told someone to measure that and that and that, would I only be meaning the first thing I said, or would I be meaning everything I said? Obviously the latter. John was instructed by the angel to measure, not just one thing, nor just two things, but three things. And one of those things was those worshiping therein.

If a literal temple is meant, this leads to nonsense since it would mean to literally measure those worshiping therein. That alone means this entire verse, plus verse 2 as well, needs to be interpreted in another sense and not in a literal sense instead.

Since John is a witness, that would make 3 during that time. I think John is one of the 2 witnesses. But John would never make it personal, so he would never point out he was actually one of the witnesses, yet John is a literal physical human being.

The point about even having a rod in hand does not mean it was literally measured. The point was that something new was introduced, and thus the need to measure it. Since many posters are going to say this is the church, the church is not new. The church has been a thing since Abel. The Temple was new, because it began at the Second Coming of Christ the Prince. It is the throne of Christ in the Temple of God. Since the church leaves the earth at the Second Coming, and that was already pointed out in chapter 7, this physical building in chapter 11 literally has nothing to do with the glorified church in heaven one iota. It is the throne Satan is about to be given in chapter 13, and the 2 witnesses will stand in opposition of that 42 month rule. When that 42 month period ends, the 2 witnesses will lay dead for 3.5 days, during the time of the 7 vials poured out on that kingdom of Satan, ending with Armageddon. Only then will the Lamb reclaim that throne in that Temple, and reign on earth for 1000 years.

The earthquake at the time the 2 are brought back to life and ascend to heaven is mentioned again at the 7th vial.

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