New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

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David, the temple in Revelation 11:1 has to be literal for...

1. the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 and make the temple desolate.
Nonsense. The prince you are talking about came in the first century. His name was Titus. Daniel 9:27, the 70th week, did not get ripped out its chronological place. Read Chris Gedge's "The Atonement Clock" and throw away your false doctrine that you believe.
2. the little horn, the same person, to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:12-13 to make the temple desolate, by the transgression of desolation. Said in the text, Daniel 8:14 to be time of the end.
Nonsense. Daniel 8 was a prophecy about Antiochis, called Epiphanes, which has been fulfilled. Read Matthew Henry's commentary, which gives the history in detail, showing how the prophecy was exactly fulffilled, and throw away your false doctrine which causes you to join prophecies together that do not belong together, highlight them and drag them into a folder which exists in another epoch thousands of years later and which only exists in a cabinet in your own mind.
3. the Antichrist, the same person, to reveal himself as the man of sin, by the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:4.

4. for the abomination to be standing in a holy place, to trigger the great tribulation, which end in Matthew 24:30 by Jesus's coming.
You fail to acknowledge that the word naos proves beyond the shadow of doubt that he will seat himself in the New Testament tempe - an idol in the Tabernacle of God on earth, an abomination which is going to cause the desolation of the part of the church which is the harlot that follows him, at the hand of the ten kings who will hate the harlot, make her DESOLATE AND NAKED, EAT HER FLESH AND BURN HER WITH FIRE. Let the reader understand.

As a result of your holding onto the false doctrine and the false teachers who tickle your ears in support of the false doctrine you believe, everything you write (such as what you wrote above) is rubbish.

Yet you just keep repeating yourself over and over, repeating the same rubbish over and over.
 
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Douggg

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Nonsense. The prince you are talking about came in the first century. His name was Titus. Daniel 9:27, the 70th week, did not get ripped out its chronological place. Read Chris Gedge's "The Atonement Clock" and throw away your false doctrine that you believe.

Nonsense. Daniel 8 was a prophecy about Antiochis, called Epiphanes, which has been fulfilled. Read Matthew Henry's commentary, which gives the history in detail, showing how the prophecy was exactly fulffilled, and throw away your false doctrine which causes you to join prophecies together that do not belong together, highlight them and drag them into a folder which exists in another epoch thousands of years later and which only exists in a cabinet in your own mind.

You fail to acknowledge that the word naos proves beyond the shadow of doubt that he will seat himself in the New Testament tempe - an idol in the Tabernacle of God on earth, an abomination which is going to cause the desolation of the part of the church which is the harlot that follows him, at the hand of the ten kings who will hate the harlot, make her DESOLATE AND NAKED, EAT HER FLESH AND BURN HER WITH FIRE. Let the reader understand.

As a result of your holding onto the false doctrine and the false teachers who tickle your ears in support of the false doctrine you believe, everything you write (such as what you wrote above) is rubbish.

Yet you just keep repeating yourself over and over, repeating the same rubbish over and over.
Is "nonesense" and "rubbish" (both used in your post) the same ?

@Douggg I apologize for calling what you have been writing in this thread "rubbish"

I see that didn't last long.
 
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Zao is life

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I’m honestly trying to see how a saved person could consider themselves as being overcome.
The saints is plural. It's the same as saying, "The true church will be overcome".

Daniel 12 speaks about "the power of the holy people being shattered".

How does this happen?

The beast succeeds in killing some and shackling the church in its task in the world. The church's only taks is to bring people into the Kingdom of Christ. Understand that gates are defensive structures. They protected cities against attack from the outside:

Matthew 16
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven to you. And whatever you may bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you may loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.

The gospel conquers. It conquers hearts, it conquers minds, it conquers lives. The beast is going to somehow shackle the church so that it cannot carry out its task:

Revelation 13
9 If any man has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed by a sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Saints is plural. It's the faithful church being overcome. Their power is being shattered.

If the two witnesses represent the church then it appears to me that their commission is completed prior to them being overcome. So I don’t think the overcoming hinders the two witnesses from accomplishing their task, in fact they should be able to recognize themselves as the two witnesses and understand if their testimony is finished or not.
.. "they will prophesy 1,260 days"
.. and when this 1,260 days are up (when they complete their testimony), they will be overcome by the beast.

Their power, which had been given them by Christ, will be shattered by the beast once the 1,260 days are up. Christ only gives them His power for 1,260 days. Not one day longer (because this is God's timing). And the beast (and Satan behind him/it), who think he/it has gained victory over the gospel when they overcome the two witnesses and kill them, don't realize that they only have three and a half days left before the beast is destroyed (just as for three and half days Satan believed he had gained victory over God when Christ died on the cross).

".. when they complete their testimony" is the same as saying, "once the 1,260 days have been completed".

Also Revelation 11:7 says the two witnesses are overcome and killed so I think the overcoming involves something other than being killed.
The overcoming does indeed involve something other than being killed. The overcoming is overcoming (their ability to share the) gospel. How they will be overcome we are not told. They may be taken captive. We are not given details, but in our modern understanding we could imagine that it's possible that they will have been on the "wanted persons" list for a long time (over three years) and got caught by bounty hunters, were bound, imprisoned, then killed.

But it will only happen once they have completed their testimony i.e once the 1,260 days has been completed.

Since there are so many similarities between John the Baptist and the 2 witnesses I would say an example of overcoming would be found in Luke 7:20 where John the Baptist questions if Jesus is the One that should come. If John the Baptist was overcome at this point I don’t think he would have been aware of it.

@grafted branch Can you see how John's imprisonment overcame John's ability to teach others about Christ? His whole mission was overcome by his imprisonment.

The similarity between John the Baptist and the two witnesses lies only in their prophesying. John the Baptist was one prophet, paving the way for the coming of the Messiah. These are two witnesses, paving the way for the deliverance of God's people from being under the hand of the beast and the destruction of the beast, in the same way that Moses and Aaron were the two witnesses in Egypt. Lots of similarities there:

THE TWO WITNESSES IN EGYPT: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Exodus 7:19-20 "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood.

And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels."

"And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

THE TWO WITNESSES OF THE REVELATION: TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Revelation 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

JOHN THE BAPTIST'S QUESTION AFTER HE WAS IMPRISONED

(IN MY OPINION) shows only that he began to doubt due to his continued imprisonment because he expected that because Christ could have, He should have and would have saved him. But Jesus did not. He was TOTALLY silent about it.

IN MY OPINION (it's just an opinion, not necessarily fact) Jesus' reply is telling: First He says what a great prophet John was (the greatest of all). Then Jesus adds, "But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.":
Matthew 11
11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

@grafted branch Jesus was not saying John was no longer in the Kingdom of Heaven. He said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John the Baptist, the greatest prophet who ever lived until now.
 
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Zao is life

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Is "nonesense" and "rubbish" (both used in your post) the same ?



I see that didn't last long.
I know :sigh: It only lasted as long as your acceptance of the fact that the word naos shows what Jesus and His apostles taught - that the temple of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is the New Testament temple (but your acceptance of facts lasted no longer than -0.00000000 times a million seconds), and it lasted as long as the length of time you refrained from writing rubbish.
 
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Douggg

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I know :sigh: It only lasted as long as your acceptance of the fact that the word naos shows what Jesus and His apostles taught - that the temple of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 is the New Testament temple (but your acceptance of facts lasted no longer than -0.00000000 times a million seconds), and it lasted as long as the length of time you refrained from writing rubbish.
Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.
 
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Zao is life

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Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.
Nope. I don't encourage those who deny facts and biblical truth and propagate false doctrine just because they demand I do.
 
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Douggg

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Zao is life

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naos - the temple sanctuary building only.

View attachment 310402


hieron - the entire temple complex; the temple sanctuary building, the burnt offering altar, the inner court, the outer court, and all the other structures.

View attachment 310401

No word for - the entire temple complex - minus the outer court. The altar and the people worshipping within is just a way of saying the inner court. Followed up by saying don't measure the outer court.

Revelation 11:1 - measure the temple complex, i.e. the naos the temple sanctuary buidling + the inner court (represented by the burnt offering altar, and the people worshiping within).

The outer court, don't include it.

View attachment 310403

The temple to be built on the temple mount will have the Holy of Holies sanctuary building and one wall. In similitude to the tent tabernacle complex in the Exodus.

View attachment 310404

The remainder of the temple mount will be opened space, where the gentiles will worship. And later the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast will be setup. Signaling the Jews to flee to the mountains.
Nice art. The Greek New Testament called both the holy court (which surrounded the sanctuary, a.k.a the most holy place or "holy of holies") + the sanctuary naos. The outer courts were called hieron.

After the tearing of the veil between the holy court and the sanctuary, which occurred when Jesus died in circa A.D 30, the Greek New Testament stopped calling the holy court and the sanctuary naos. After this only the church and temple in heaven are called naos, and the entire temple in Jerusalem which stood for another 40 years before being destroyed, is called hieron.

Nice art, though.
 
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Douggg

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After the tearing of the veil between the holy court and the sanctuary, which occurred when Jesus died in circa A.D 30, the Greek New Testament stopped calling the holy court and the sanctuary naos.
You have some misconceptions. I think you are confusing the holy room and the holy court.

The holy court was the inner court outside of the sanctuary building (the naos).

The veil was inside the sanctuary building (the naos). It separated the priests, holy men, who perfomed services in the holy room on a daily basis - from the Holy of Holies room behind the veil, which only the high priest could enter, and even then only once a year.

(copied off the internet)
upload_2022-1-3_6-34-16.jpeg




the naos in the tent complex in this illustration (which I copied off the internet) would be the tent in the center. The inner court (the holy court) would be the outside surrounded by the wall.

The inner court (the holy court) would be where the burnt offering altar is - also in the illustration.

The Revelation 11:1-2 temple to be built will be replicating the tent complex in the Exodus. All of the tents you see in the background would represent Jerusalem in Revelation 11:2. Where the two witnesses, when killed, will lie for 3 1/2 days.

(copied off the internet)
upload_2022-1-3_6-25-49.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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imo, the Revelation 11:1 naos sanctuary building will be the size of the tent naos in the Exodus - about 30 ft x 15 ft.

The wall about the same size as what was in the Exodus.

The reason for my thinking this is the amount of time needed to build the temple complex of the naos and inner court (the holy court) - following Gog/Magog is limited to around 7 months, to get the animal sacrifices started again (on day 220 of my chart below) - to leave the 2300 days of Daniel 8.



upload_2022-1-3_6-56-10.jpeg
 
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Zao is life

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You have some misconceptions.
The misconception is yours. The holy of holies was where the high priest went into once a year on the day of Atonement. There was no veil inside that room. The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court. @Douggg The holy court or holy place does not have to be in the courtyard (outside). You obviously don''t you know what the word "court" means. Beyond the veil between the holy court and the holy of holies was the ark of the covenant with the cherubim covering it. Read up what else was in there and what the priest did.

The entire holy courtyard surrounding the holy court and the holy of holies was called naos.

If you want to get facts from the Internet, one search will find you the facts. I found this on the first page of my search, near the top:

Holy of Holies and the Veil

Quote
A thick curtain separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place. This curtain, known as the “veil,” was made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn. There were figures of cherubim (angels) embroidered onto it.
Unquote

Both the holy court and the holy of holies were called naos until the day that veil was torn.

But suit yourself because you are obviously determined to invent your own fakes and call them truth.
 
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Douggg

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The misconception is yours. The holy of holies was where the high priest went into once a year on the day of Atonement. There was no veil inside that room. The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court.

The veil is what separated the holy of holies from the holy court.

The veil is what separated the holy of holies room from the holy room.

The naos is the two roomed sanctuary building.
 
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Douggg

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A thick curtain separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place. This curtain, known as the “veil,” was made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn. There were figures of cherubim (angels) embroidered onto it.
Unquote

Both the holy court and the holy of holies were called naos until the day that veil was torn.


Inside the santucary building (the naos) - the Holy of Holies room was separated from the Holy Place room by a veil.

The Holy court was outside the sanctuary building (tent in the Exodus)
 
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Douggg

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DavidPT

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Please go back to my post #119. I updated it with some illustrations.

Oddly enough, though I too agree the 70th week is future, or if not all of it is, the final half is, I don't have it involving literal temples in Jerusalem where animal sacrificing resumes then is put to an end again, which is ludicrous to begin with. I have it basically involving what this thread for the most part is involving, that these things are not meaning in a literal sense. In my view, the first 69 weeks, or maybe even the first 69 1/2 weeks, this involves the literal. After that it is no longer involving the literal, it is meaning in another sense instead, like many of these posts throughout this thread, including the OP, are showing to be the case. I don't blame others for rejecting that any of the 70th week involves the future if it means one needs to understand it like you are, that being in the literal sense. But that is not the only way these things can be understood, though.
 
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grafted branch

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Yes. Revelation 21:27 is talking about New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and New Earth, not about the church now. Lots of false "doctrines of Jezebel" enter in and defile the church that exists now.
Ok, Hebrews 12:22 says we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I’ve been interpreting this to mean that we have spiritually come to the New Heavens/New Earth (behold all things are become new).

I think we would agree that the naos is currently not physical but spiritual. Do you see the church itself not coming to the heavenly Jerusalem but the true believers do?
 
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grafted branch

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You and I are seeing this differently. Jesus is the Wod of God. Abraham received the Word of God and Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. This was long before Christ shed His blood:
Can we go back to Ephesian 2:11-13 for a moment? Verse 13 says ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Wouldn’t the blood of Christ be what allows Gentiles to now be included in the covenants of promise?


The Israelites, who were descended from Abraham, received the Word of God (Romans 9:4-5). The vast majority of ten of the Israelite tribes were broken off from Israel because of their spiritual harlotry in circa 725 B.C, and the northern kingdom (the ten tribes), very often collectively called "Ephraim" in scripture, ceased being a nation before God (Isaiah 7:8; Hosea chapter 1).

That left the Jews and Benjamin to bear the torch. They were chastized for their spiritual adultery and harlotry by being exiled and held captive in Babylon for 70 years, from circa 587 B.C to 517 B.C.

Jesus is the Word of God. When those of the Jews showed their unbelief in the Word of God by rejecting Him, they too, were broken off, and if God did so with the Jews, He will do so with the Gentiles who claim to believe the Word of God also (Romans 11:22-23) if they prove either their unbelief of the Word of God, or if they show their faith in the Word of God + the word of another god (harlotry, adultery, false doctrines). I believe we should note that before Adam & Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they believed the lie (compare 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
Thanks for taking the time to explain your view. Your view is that Gentiles were not part of the commonwealth or covenants of promise and that was because they were without Christ and not because they were not born of Israel (genetic descendants). I think this would be correct if a Gentile could have access to the naos outside of Israel. I would say prior to the cross the naos was only in a single specific location.



So the reason why the Philistines could not steal the election from Israel by stealing the ark of the covenant is because God had chosen the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be the torch-bearers, the vessel for His Word, and no one can just decide otherwise for themselves. No one has the right to attempt to change the mind of God. His will is His will. This is also why God did not accept the temple of the Samaritans on Mt Gerizim. This is also why God will never again accept a temple in Jerusalem. Christ is the temple of God. We have so many statements by Jesus and His apostles (and the word naos) to prove this.
If it was the genetic descendants that were the torch-bearers of the ark and only a Levite could be a priest, then Gentiles were not part of the commonwealth of Israel, at least in part, because of their genetics. So in Ephesians 2:11-13 I don’t think we can’t rule out that Paul could have been referring to genetics.



But it's never been about genetic ancestry. It's always been about belief vs unbelief of the Word of God, and God elected a nation to carry His Word to the nations. When they rejected His Word, God elected another nation which consists of a multitude of nations and is called the Kingdom of Christ.
Prior to the cross we both agree that it would be impossible for a Gentile nation to get the ark and obey Gods commandments because genetically Israel was to bear the ark. So I would say genetics did play a part in at least some of the promises made by God.
 
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grafted branch

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The saints is plural. It's the same as saying, "The true church will be overcome".

Daniel 12 speaks about "the power of the holy people being shattered".

How does this happen?

The beast succeeds in killing some and shackling the church in its task in the world. The church's only taks is to bring people into the Kingdom of Christ. Understand that gates are defensive structures. They protected cities against attack from the outside:

Matthew 16
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven to you. And whatever you may bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you may loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.

The gospel conquers. It conquers hearts, it conquers minds, it conquers lives. The beast is going to somehow shackle the church so that it cannot carry out its task:

Revelation 13
9 If any man has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed by a sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Saints is plural. It's the faithful church being overcome. Their power is being shattered.
I have seen several views on this; one is that the power of the holy people in Daniel 12 is the power (hand) in Daniel 7:25. This view then sees that power shattered (shall bruise) in Romans 16:20. The second view sees the power of the holy people being scattered as the naos now being in all believers and not just one physical location; this is also seen when Jesus breaks the bread (his body) to feed the multitude. I think some people also include Pentecost and the Holy Spirit as the power being scattered or dispersed.

I’m not sure which of the views is correct, your is different than the two I have looked at previously, so I’m going to have to look at your view a little closer before I make any comments on it.
 
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claninja

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NEW JERUSALEM vs BABYLON THE GREAT
AND THE TEMPLE THE MAN OF SIN WILL APPEAR IN

It's important that we understand the following:

* We are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).

* We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Revelation 21
9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Remember, we are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9: 12, 24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Revelation 11
1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

* New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2, 10 & Revelation 22:19).

* Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8.

The problem therefore with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

1. Holy places made with (human hands).
2. The thesis-antithesis comparison the Revelation makes between New Jerusalem and the harlot.

1. HOLY PLACES MADE WITH (HUMAN) HANDS

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Acts 7
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands, as the prophet says.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The pages below make the (very important) fact you are about to read abundantly clear. The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:

1. Naos
Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
2. Hieron
Strong's #2411 - ἱερόν - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

In the New Testament, the Greek words naos and hieron are both used in reference to the temple (both mean "temple"), but the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies.

After the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven:

(See: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22).

*StrongsGreek*]
02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'
neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary of the Temple itself (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Compare 2411.

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

(1) Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).

(2) Any heathen temple or shrine.

(3) Metaphor for the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

These facts teach us that there is a BIG problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem, because all the other verses in the New Testament that follow after the verses in the gospels talking about the tearing of the veil (and that use the Greek word naos for "temple") are talking about the temple in heaven or the church as the temple.

The Greek word naos used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 implies that it's symbolic language being used, and it's quite possibly a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7, where the temple being 'measured' is the same as telling us that John is being told to count the sheep. It's the same symbolism seen where New Jerusalem is measured:

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

The same goes for the naos (temple) that the man of sin will seat himself up in: The word naos used for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians implies that it's the church being spoken of (if it was speaking of a temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word hieron would have been used, since the word hieron continues to be used beyond the gospels in all references to the physical temple in Jerusalem).

2. THE THESIS-ANTITHESIS COMPARISON REVELATION MAKES
BETWEEN NEW JERUSALEM AND THE HARLOT

* New Jerusalem is called the bride and the wife of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9) and a "city" of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

* Babylon the Great is also a "city" but is called a harlot which is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

Compare the following:

New Jerusalem:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here,
I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here,
I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 21:9; Revelation 17:1).

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet. And she was gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

New Jerusalem:
"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

Now consider the fact that Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect, and compare the following:

Revelation 17
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Revelation 18
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.

Biblical types and their counterparts, a.k.a antitypes:

Isaiah 1
21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

Jerusalem:
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Revelation 7
14b And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 2
21 And I gave her (Jezebel) time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

Daniel 12

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

HOW OLD IS "BABYLON THE GREAT"?

Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

revelation 11:1-2 clearly makes a distinction between the temple (naos) and the outer court and city of Jerusalem.

1.) the temple, in vs 1, and it’s worshippers and altar are measured.

2.) the outer courts and city are not measured because they are given over to the nations and are trampled.

Why is there a distinction of “measuring” made between the naos and the “not measuring” of the outer courts/city, if they are both about the church, according to your argument?
 
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DavidPT

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Why is there a distinction of “measuring” made between the naos and the “not measuring” of the outer courts/city, if they are both about the church, according to your argument?


Interesting question. Maybe what is meant by the city in verse 2 is meaning what is recorded in verse 1? Even though I think Luke 21:20 involves Jerusalem in 70 AD, Luke 21:24 is meaning post 70 AD though, and that it is involving what is recorded in Revelation 11:1-2, not Luke 21:20, and that none of it is meaning in a literal sense.

In my view, after Luke 21:20 was fulfilled, things switched gears and went from meaning in a literal sense to meaning in another sense altogether. IMO, Matthew 24:15-26 is not paralleling Luke 21:20 like many tend to believe, it is involving what Luke 21:24 is involving, which includes what is recorded in Revelation 11:1-2, where that involves the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13.
 
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