Texas Senate drops "White Supremacy is bad" requirement from education bill

Ana the Ist

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TLK Valentine

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The history of white supremacy?

Are we talking about the KKK or everything Europeans did after 1400AD?

As this ruling affects primarily US history courses, I'm inclined to believe the former can no longer be described as "morally wrong."
 
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Ana the Ist

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As this ruling affects primarily US history courses, I'm inclined to believe the former can no longer be described as "morally wrong."

I'm just trying to figure out what is meant by "white supremacy" in this case. It's not made clear...

As for the KKK, it doesn't seem to stop anyone from teaching about racial hate groups....and I don't see why you'd have to limit it to the KKK. You can reference some current events like the Moors Against America (aka MAA) and their standoff with police.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Exactly what I predicted, mental gymnastics to try to blame these consistent patterns on anything other than racism. Also, your claim about motive shows that you really don't understand what systemic racism is or how it works. Individuals with racist motives are not required. All that's required is that systems exist that have disproportionate effects on people by race, and people work within those systems and benefit from them without trying to understand why they work the way they do, or challenging them.

Just explain how you identify a systemic racism?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Just explain how you identify a systemic racism?

This question demonstrates that Strathos is correct that you don't (or are unwilling to) understand what systemic racism is.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'm just trying to figure out what is meant by "white supremacy" in this case. It's not made clear...

“the history of white supremacy, including but not limited to the institution of slavery, the eugenics movement, and the Ku Klux Klan, and the ways in which it is morally wrong,” seems pretty clear.

As for the KKK, it doesn't seem to stop anyone from teaching about racial hate groups

A "problem" the Texas Senate seems ready to address.

You can reference some current events like the Moors Against America (aka MAA) and their standoff with police.

No doubt the Texas government would find such a lesson plan far more useful than anything condemning the KKK.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This question demonstrates that Strathos is correct that you don't (or are unwilling to) understand what systemic racism is.

This reply demonstrates that you and most likely @Strathos can't answer what should be a very easy question.
 
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Ana the Ist

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“the history of white supremacy, including but not limited to the institution of slavery, the eugenics movement, and the Ku Klux Klan, and the ways in which it is morally wrong,” seems pretty clear.

That actually makes it less clear for several reasons...

1. The institution of slavery wasn't always tied to race.

2. Eugenics wasn't tied to race either. Sweden had one of the longest and most extensive eugenics programs, which sterilized a lot of white people.

3. Is just white supremacy wrong? Or is it wrong for any race to seek to betterment of, or politically advocate for, their own race?
 
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TLK Valentine

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That actually makes it less clear for several reasons...

1. The institution of slavery wasn't always tied to race.

2. Eugenics wasn't tied to race either. Sweden had one of the longest and most extensive eugenics programs, which sterilized a lot of white people.

3. Is just white supremacy wrong? Or is it wrong for any race to seek to betterment of, or politically advocate for, their own race?

Considering that these rules will be applied to US History curricula, the answers become obvious.

1. In the US, the institution of Slavery was indeed tied to race -- some folks, either lying or ignorant about the difference between chattel slavery and indentured servitude, may try to say otherwise. Such people have little to contribute to a discussion on history.

2. Again, in the context of US history, Sweden doesn't really enter into it.

3. If you're looking for a suitable distraction, you'll find one without much difficulty -- and the Texas Senate will thank you for it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Considering that these rules will be applied to US History curricula, the answers become obvious.

1. In the US, the institution of Slavery was indeed tied to race.

Nope. The Atlantic slave trade (which started before the colonies and continued after they were founded) was predicated upon an edict by the Pope which allowed non-Christians to be enslaved.

If you were to leave all that out, you would be a giving students a false impression of history.

2. Again, in the context of US history, Sweden doesn't really enter into it.

In the context of US history...eugenics wasn't race-based either.

3. If you're looking for a suitable distraction, you'll find one without much difficulty -- and the Texas Senate will thank you for it.

I'm looking for your reasoning behind the "immorality" of white supremacy.

I suspect that the reason why you won't give it is because you think it's perfectly acceptable and even moral for non-whites to advocate for the benefit of their race and to vote for those who do.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Nope. The Atlantic slave trade (which started before the colonies and continued after they were founded) was predicated upon an edict by the Pope which allowed non-Christians to be enslaved.

If you were to leave all that out, you would be a giving students a false impression of history.

And where did one find non-Christians back in the day?

Because in the US, many slaves did indeed convert to Christianity -- and yet, they remained slaves, so someone's going to have to explain why your reasoning doesn't hold water.

I'm looking for your reasoning behind the "immorality" of white supremacy.

Shouldn't you be looking for your own reasoning behind the immorality of white supremacy?

...assuming, of course, you find it immoral in the first place?
 
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Ana the Ist

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And where did one find non-Christians back in the day?

Anywhere outside of Europe.

so someone's going to have to explain why your reasoning doesn't hold water.

What part?


Shouldn't you be looking for your own reasoning behind the immorality of white supremacy?

I said that the definition of white supremacy wasn't clear....you said it was. To quote...

“the history of white supremacy, including but not limited to the institution of slavery, the eugenics movement, and the Ku Klux Klan, and the ways in which it is morally wrong,” seems pretty clear.

You said it "seems pretty clear"...you're stating that you understand it clearly.

So let's hear it....state why it's morally wrong to advocate for the benefit of your race.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Anywhere outside of Europe.

So, non-Europeans, then. So far, so obvious.

And which non-Europeans was the Pope aware of during that period?


I said that the definition of white supremacy wasn't clear....you said it was.

Actually, I said the goals stated in the article were pretty clear. If you don't understand white supremacy, the educational system is in more trouble than I thought.

You said it "seems pretty clear"...you're stating that you understand it clearly.

So let's hear it....state why it's morally wrong to advocate for the benefit of your race.

Depends on how you choose to advocate for it. (Hint: defending the KKK -- not so good)

So... how about you come up with a couple of moral ways to advocate for one's race...
 
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Ana the Ist

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So, non-Europeans, then. So far, so obvious.

As long as they weren't Christian.

And which non-Europeans was the Pope aware of during that period?

A lot I would imagine.

Actually, I said the goals stated in the article were pretty clear.

They aren't clear if no one can explain what white supremacy is.

If you don't understand white supremacy, the educational system is in more trouble than I thought.

It's weird to see so many people trot out the same defense when they can't explain themselves.

You formulated the reply like this....

"If you don't know x, so you must dumb"

That's paraphrasing of course, but that's the implication of what you said. Look at how another poster says the same thing a different way.....

Exactly what I predicted, mental gymnastics to try to blame these consistent patterns on anything other than racism. Also, your claim about motive shows that you really don't understand what systemic racism is or how it works.

Is it the exact same thing you said? No. Is it implying the exact same thing? Yes.

@Strathos doesn't go on to explain what systemic racism is and how it works....instead, he explains what it isn't. That doesn't help explain what it is at all....because if we made a list of what systemic racism isn't....this thread would go on forever.

Here's another poster saying the same thing...

This question demonstrates that Strathos is correct that you don't (or are unwilling to) understand what systemic racism is.

The implication is exactly the same "if you don't understand it....you must be dumb".

Again, like yourself, like @Strathos...none of you seem capable of actually explaining these concepts that you not only claim are valid....but that they should be taught in school lol.

That's going to be a problem if a student asks you the same questions I have. I'm certain that you won't just imply he's dumb and belittle him in front of the other students.

Any lesson on "white supremacy" is going to have to start with an explanation of what "white supremacy" is and if you're going to connect it to a behavior that is immoral....you're going to have to explain why it's immoral for everyone....not just white people.

Otherwise, you'd be holding white people to a different moral standard than everyone else. I can't think of a reason for that which isn't going to be racist. It's certainly not "racial equality or equity" or whatever people claim to be supporting these days.

The same problem is going to happen when you give a lesson on systemic racism.

If I give you a multiple choice question like....

Which of these incidents is an example of systemic racism?

A. A white employer decides to hire a white job applicant instead of a black one, despite both applicants having similar qualifications.

B. A cop wrestles a black man to the ground during an arrest, causing injury to the black man.

C. An asian student is denied a scholarship to Harvard, while a black student with slightly worse grades is granted the same scholarship.

D. A white man is sentenced to 2.5 months for simple assault....by the same judge who sentenced a black man with a similar criminal history to 3 months for simple assault.

If you can't explain how to identify a systemic racism, how is the student going to know the answer?

It's a good thing that Texas has told teachers to stop teaching this stuff....because it looks like the people who want to teach it so desperately have no idea what they are talking about lol.

These conversations take a bizarrely similar track as the old conversations I used to have with Christians regarding the teaching of Intelligent Design.

What's ID? Well that means god made everything.

How did God make everything? If I have to explain that it just proves you don't understand god.

Ok...what's the evidence? Everything. Everything looks like it was designed. Clocks have clockmakers.

What makes you think everything would be different if it wasn't made by god? Obviously you don't get it...you're in denial about god etc...

I used to think it was such an obviously bad argument that people would eventually realize it doesn't make any sense. That's not why they believed it though....

They believed it because their group said it was true. They don't want to be seen as an outsider by their group...so they claimed to believe it even if they didn't really understand it or even if they couldn't explain it....someone in their group must be able to...right?

After all....you can't all be wrong....can you?

If your ideas like systemic racism and now "white supremacy" can't hold up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny, I promise you, it's not the people who are scrutinizing them who "don't understand".

Thankfully, at least some legislators have decided to put a stop to this.
 
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TLK Valentine

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As long as they weren't Christian.



A lot I would imagine.

Your imagination is so noted.

That's paraphrasing of course, but that's the implication of what you said.

If you were as good at reading "implications" as you claim to be, then figuring out white supremacy shouldn't be a problem.

But of course, it's not a problem, is it? calling it (and the implicaions thereof) immoral are the problem.

Thankfully, at least some legislators have decided to put a stop to this.

You have what you want, then. Perhaps someday you'll manage to convince others about the "implications."
 
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Ana the Ist

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Your imagination is so noted.

Thanks...I'm rarely asked about the personal knowledge of historical figures long dead.


If you were as good at reading "implications" as you claim to be, then figuring out white supremacy shouldn't be a problem.

Oh I'm sorry....no...I have a fully functional definition of "white supremacy". It's the same one you used to have before the left started calling the US a "white supremacist nation" or saying that our history is "white supremacist"....

Now it's not clear what they mean. The difference between you and I is that I haven't gone along with it by pretending to understand it.
 
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First I'm sure you will agree; the problems listed are not a problem in every single city and institution in the US. Some places have this problem, some do not; so I think the question would be if this is a people problem or is it a system problem.

The first 2, stop and frisk and black people being pulled over when driving only seems to only happen in high crime areas; not low crime areas even though the same system is pretty much in place in both places; the only difference is the people involved (police and citizens of the community). Also this seems to be a problem where not only the citizens are majority black, but as are the people in positions of power; higher percentage of black officers, often black police chief, mayor often black, even the city council having a higher percentage of black people; all enacting liberal/progressive policies known to be mindful of blacks. Yet the higher income/lower crime rate neighborhoods usually run by white people with more conservative policies (often accused of being racist), don’t seem to have this problem; so perhaps racism isn’t the problem.
All this tells me these are people problems not system problems.

Minorities having to “whiten” their resume’
Again this is not a problem everywhere; where it does happen, the system in place is no different than the system in place where it does not happen. Again this is a people problem not a system problem.

Racial disparities;
This one seems to be all over the place, they mention how Covid-19 effects blacks more, blacks have less insurance, die more often during child birth, get suspended at school more often; and countless other problems. If there is a system in place responsible for this they did not point it out. Again I suspect this is a people problem not a system problem.
 
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