A forever hell

MMXX said:

Ezekiel 18:30-32 is about repenting to God. Luke 17:3 and Matthew 18:15-18 are about forgiving your brother, not your enemy or someone in general.

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As God forgives others, so we too are to forgive others.

Matthew 6:12-14 (WEB)
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also forgive our debtors.
13 Bring us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’

God forgives those who sin against Him if they repent.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

We too are to forgive others their sins when they repent.

Luke 17:3 (WEB)
3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand. Those who repent are the ones we forgive without limit - if they repent first.

Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Notice in the Parable that, if one repents, pleading for mercy, then you are to forgive them.

If a person has no sorrow for a wrong against you, then you don't forgive them, just as God will not forgive anyone unless they first repent.

Acts 20:20-21 (NIV)
20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

MMXX said:

This is an open multi-person discussion not a private conversation. You have dashed out as much as you have received.

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It is an open multi-person discussion about the topic - not a place to create full messages of nothing but attacks on others personally for something you feel is wrong. Did you ever think to personally attack St. Steven for calling me a false prophet first? No you didn't. Why? Because you thought to discriminate unjustly against me because of your bias.

setst777 said:

It is an open multi-person discussion about the topic - not a place to create full messages of nothing but attacks on others personally for something you feel is wrong. Did you ever think to personally attack St. Steven for calling me a false prophet first? No you didn't. Why? Because you thought to discriminate unjustly against me because of your bias.

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You've taken the route of dishing out to others to playing victim.

MMXX said:

You've taken the route of dishing out to others to playing victim.

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Oh, that is your judgment. St. Steven called me a false prophet first for quoting Scripture. I respond, to him and then you start in with your full messages of attacks on me.

setst777 said:

Oh, that is your judgment. St. Steven called me a false prophet first for quoting Scripture. I respond, to him and then you start in with your full messages of attacks on me.

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He said, "You are a false prophet if your opinion is wrong when you declare it was what the Lord taught." Which looks to me like a statement of fact that can be applied to anyone.

Whereas you've said things such as; "Will you ever learn not to pervert God's Will by quoting God's Holy Word as prooftexts to back up your opinions?"

MMXX said:

He said "You are a false prophet if your opinion is wrong when you declare it was what the Lord taught." Which looks to me like a statement of fact that can be applied to anyone.

Whereas you've said things such as; "Will you ever learn not to pervert God's Will by quoting God's Holy Word as prooftexts to back up your opinions?"

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See, you are taking sides, and being biased. So don't think you can be an arbitrator of justice, attacking others on this board with full messages of personal attacks, who do not agree with you.

setst777 said:

See, you are taking sides, and being biased. So don't think you can be an arbitrator of justice, attacking others on this board with full messages of personal attacks, who do not agree with you.

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I just pointed out what I observed.

MMXX said:

I just pointed out what I observed.

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No that is not just all you did. And, once again, you admit no wrong for your rampage of personal attack on me, just as you admit no wrong when you misquote Scriptures and someone point it out to you. You just start attacking someone else's positions. Then, when proven wrong again, you just move on to another attack.

setst777 said:

No that is not just all you did. And, once again, you admit no wrong for your rampage of personal attack on me, just as you admit no wrong when you misquote Scriptures and someone point it out to you. You just start attacking someone else's positions. Then, when proven wrong again, you just move on to another attack.

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I'm sorry about how this turned out.

MMXX said:

I'm sorry about how this turned out.

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Thank you. All is well then. Let us start fresh and put this behind us.

Blessings.

setst777 said:

The place of wrath is eternal torment.

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Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?

setst777 said:

You could say it about me, but it would not be true. I showed your errors in all your posts with your continued misquoting of God's Word.

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Since when does a difference of opinion equate to an error on my part? And when does quoting scripture become MISquoting?

Der Alte said:

before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom,

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You've posted this message numerous times claiming that Gehenna is a place of everlasting torment but the passages you quote 1) say nothing about it being everlasting; and 2) indicate that souls get there immediately after death, which contradicts your claim that Gehenna is the same as the Lake of Fire, which you claimed in a previous post. Here are quotations to show contradictions in your posts:

Der Alte said:

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death.

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Der Alte said:

All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men:

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Der Alte said:

In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death.

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Der Alte said:

Gehenna will be destroyed,

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Der Alte said:

Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”

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We know that punishment in the LoF takes place not after death but after resurrection of the body:

Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved.
13 The sea gave up all the dead who were in it;
14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death;
15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

setst777 said:

As God forgives others, so we too are to forgive others.

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No doubt. But my forgiving someone isn't contingent upon them repenting to me. I recently had a car collide into mine. My car is destroyed and I'm in lots of pain from multiple injuries. But I automatically forgive the person who hit me.

Matthew 6:12-14 (WEB)
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also forgive our debtors.
13 Bring us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’

God forgives those who sin against Him if they repent.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

We too are to forgive others their sins when they repent.

Luke 17:3 (WEB)
3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand. Those who repent are the ones we forgive without limit - if they repent first.

Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Notice in the Parable that, if one repents, pleading for mercy, then you are to forgive them.

If a person has no sorrow for a wrong against you, then you don't forgive them, just as God will not forgive anyone unless they first repent.

Acts 20:20-21 (NIV)
20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

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Andrewn said:

You've posted this message numerous times claiming that Gehenna is a place of everlasting torment but the passages you quote 1) say nothing about it being everlasting; and 2) indicate that souls get there immediately after death, which contradicts your claim that Gehenna is the same as the Lake of Fire, which you claimed in a previous post. Here are quotations to show contradictions in your posts:

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I quoted three sources, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud which mentioned differing beliefs. I almost never say anything I can't back up. The memory is a bit fuzzy I don't recall ever saying that hell and the Lake of Fire are the same.
Comparison of sources and scripture.
1. Jewish Encyclopedia [JE]: hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2. JE: When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).
…..SScripture Isaiah 14:9-11 Shows that Jews used Gehinnom and sheol to refer to the same place. Hebrew Gehinnom is transliterated "Gehenna" in the LXX and NT. Hebrew "sheol" in translated "hades" in the LXX and NT.
3. Talmud: The Book of Enoch the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al).
…..Book of Enoch which is considered canon by the Jews.
4. Talmud: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).
…..Book of Judith which is considered canon by the Jews. Also cf. Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:43-48
5. Talmud: The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
.....Scripture Isaiah 33:11
6. Talmud: they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
…..Isaiah 66:24 scripture.
7. Talmud: Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world[sheol]" which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
…..Psalms 49:15 scripture.
8. Talmud Concerning them Hannah says [1 Samuel 2:10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
…..Psalm 49:15 and 1 Samuel 2:10. scripture. Jesus never said any of these were false..

We know that punishment in the LoF takes place not after death but after resurrection of the body:
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved.
13 The sea gave up all the dead who were in it;
14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death;
15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

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Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical properties and can't be literally be thrown anywhere. Hades if it refers to the grave, graves are empty holes empty can't be thrown anywhere. If it refers to the place of punishment, I suppose that can be thrown. Neither hell or death can or has died a first death, they can't die a second death.
There is a scriptural answer that does not involve mixing literal and figurative.
I call these two sentient beings the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them whatever you want. They are sentient beings and can die. They are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

Saint Steven said:

Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?

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[I decided to remove the image I posted because some might see it as sacrilegious]

MMXX said:

No doubt. But my forgiving someone isn't contingent upon them repenting to me. I recently had a car collide into mine. My car is destroyed and I'm in lots of pain from multiple injuries. But I automatically forgive the person who hit me.

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In the case of the person who's car collided with yours causing damage and injury, I am thinking that person did not do it on purpose, and is probably sorry it happened. If the act was not intention, but was truly an accident, then no sin was committed. In this case, you do well to forgive them, and offer them grace.

If the person had intentionally collided with your car to cause you to be injured, then that person is to seek your forgiveness first before you forgive him, because he committed an evil sinful act against you. That does not mean you harbor bitterness toward that person, but that you pray for them and hope they will have a change of heart for what they did, and ask for your forgiveness.

Besides the Scripture I had already provided regarding the Biblical teaching of forgiving those who first repent, another verse comes to mind that is kind of unusual, but teaches similarly is as follows:

Matthew 10:14-15 (WEB)
14 Whoever doesn’t receive you or hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Most certainly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Notice, Lord Jesus does not say to forgive them, and bless them anyway. Rather, just the opposite: They are to curse them by shaking the dust off their feet against the sinners who refused to receive them or hear their words.

MMXX said:

* * * Blasphemous meme omitted. * * *

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Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” does not sound like everyone will be saved no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

setst777 said:

In the case of the person who's car collided with yours causing damage and injury, I am thinking that person did not do it on purpose, and is probably sorry it happened. If the act was not intention, but was truly an accident, then no sin was committed. In this case, you do well to forgive them, and offer them grace.

If the person had intentionally collided with your car to cause you to be injured, then that person is to seek your forgiveness first before you forgive him, because he committed an evil sinful act against you. That does not mean you harbor bitterness toward that person, but that you pray for them and hope they will have a change of heart for what they did, and ask for your forgiveness.

Besides the Scripture I had already provided regarding the Biblical teaching of forgiving those who first repent, another verse comes to mind that is kind of unusual, but teaches similarly is as follows:

Matthew 10:14-15 (WEB)
14 Whoever doesn’t receive you or hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Most certainly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Notice, Lord Jesus does not say to forgive them, and bless them anyway. Rather, just the opposite: They are to curse them by shaking the dust off their feet against the sinners who refused to receive them or hear their words.

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You have an unusual way of putting things together.

Der Alte said:

Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” does not sound like everyone will be saved no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

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Another tract from ETЯUS?