Butterball1
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So it is possible for one to be a "real" and "true" disciple of Christ, as Judas and the other 11, and fall away.
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John 6 took place very early in Jesus’ ministry and at that point Judas was a devil. I don’t think he ever truly believed.
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Agreed.
There is a difference between the seeds sown by Satan
and the seed sown by God. There is a difference between
the "children of Satan" and the "children of God", even though
BOTH are part of the church (the "wheat" and the "tares")
(1) First, I assume nothing.
(2) Second, I have been preaching for 50 years and try
to only say what the Scriptures say. I choose my words
carefully... you should read them just as carefully.
(3) I never said the "Kingdom of God" includes "tares".
I said the "Kingdom of Heaven" includes both "wheat and tares",
and I said that because I was simply REPEATING what Christ said.
You CHANGED my words (hence the words of the Bible)
(4) Contrary to the unlearned ASSUMPTION of many, there is
a HUGE difference between the (temporal) "Kingdoms of Heaven"
and the (eternal) "Kingdom of God". I will be glad to explain the
differences (with Scriptures) if you REALLY want to know the
difference. If you want what you want - instead of Bible Truth,
then please don't waste my time by asking to see the difference.
(5) Contrary to what you said (above) the TARES do not
represent "unbelief" or "no faith" and the GOOD SEED does not
represent "faith".
(6) The "tares" represent PEOPLE who are sown by Satan:
Mat 13:38 (c) ... the tares are the children of the wicked one;
(7) The "good seed" represent PEOPLE called the "wheat"
or the "children of the Kingdom" who are sown by God.
Mat 13:38 (b) ... the "good seed" are the "children of the Kingdom"
(8) As you correctly pointed out "words have MEANINGS"
and the GOD (alone) gets to DEFINE the MEANING of the words
used in the Bible. It is our DUTY to (a) discern God's meaning and
(b) use God's meaning instead of our "feelings" or "beliefs".
(9) First, I was VERY clear that SATAN sows the "tares".
Again, I am very careful in what I say, you should be equally
careful in READING what I say for comprehension... otherwise
you are wasting both of our time.
(10) Second, Of course you are incorrect. The unsaved "tares"
in the church ARE also "enemies" of the True Church because
they infiltrate the church and they corrupt the church with the
"leaven" of their false doctrines. This is a major PART of the
Gospel of the Bible. Jesus taught they are enemies of the real
(eternal) "church" (enemies of the "wheat") and Jesus called
them (the "tares") names like "false prophets" and "wolves
in sheep's clothing" and "children of Satan" and other names.
(11) I never said that "tares" transform into "wheat". And
I never said that "tares" BECOME "wheat". You are (a) either very
confused or (b) you simply do not read for comprehension so you
deflect to different issues or (c) you intentionally build STRAWMEN
that you can then knock down. In any case you are arguing with
yourself (not me).
(12) First, no... "tares" are NOT considered "wormwood".
You obviously have no idea what "wormwood" represents
in Scripture as you cannot provide ONE VERSE of Scripture
that teaches such nonsense. Remember, God (alone) gets
to DEFINE the MEANING of word He chooses to use and we
must discern God's meaning if we hope to understand what
is being taught.
(13) Again you are wrong, because you contradict SCRIPTURE
by expressing your "feelings". Yes, "tares" and "wheat" are two
different plants. However, as we have already seen (in #6-7 above)
"wheat and tares" represent PEOPLE. One being "children of God"
and the other being "children of Satan".
(14) Read #13 above.
While it is clear you have an active imagination, you do not get
to CHANGE the DEFINITIONS of the words God chooses to use
in Scripture just to"fit" into your imagination. God (clearly) defines
"tares" as PEOPLE (not false prophecies) and He also defines the
"wheat" as PEOPLE (not something people eat).
(15) If you want me to take you seriously you will need to DISCERN
the context and meaning of words God chooses to use and then you
will need to DEFINE those words as God intended. And, if you do this
you will find there is SCRIPTURE to support your understandings.
However, if you are simply going to express your "feelings" or your
personal "opinions" or "imaginations" about the Word of God, then
you are only wasting both of our time because I can see through that
nonsense in an instant... as I have done now (so you will have wasted
all your time writing your "feelings" and "imaginations") and I will not bother correcting all your errors... as I have done today.
Jim
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Judas was NEVER "the Devil"
The Devil is Satan... a fallen angel.
Was Judas ever a fallen angel (answer: no)
The Devil is Satan.
Judas was never Satan.
At one point Judas was indwelt by Satan...
Luk 22:3-24
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot,
being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way,
and communed with the chief priests and captains,
how he might betray him unto them.
Just as Peter was NOT SATAN when Jesus (talking to Satan)
said to "get behind me" [Mat 16:23]
Jim
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You are forgetting FOUR (4) important Biblical Facts;
(1) Judas was a "disciple" and MANY of the "disciples"
abandoned Jesus when they realized He taught salvation
by "election" [John 6:65-66]. So "disciples" can (and did)
abandon Jesus.
(2) Judas was SUPPOSED to do exactly what he did in betraying
Jesus... "it was written" in the OT Scriptures. Judas was, therefore,
simply fulfilling OT prophecy.
(3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were "indwelt" with the
Holy Spirit of God (born again).
(4) It is not possible for someone who is "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit
("born again" with ETERNAL LIFE) to ever LOSE that eternal Life....
In fact, that contradicts the very MEANING of the word "eternal"
Jesus PROMISED that NONE of "His Sheep" would ever be lost.
This is a very BASIC and ESSENTIAL element of the True Gospel.
And I don't think Jesus was a LIAR... do you think that Jesus LIED?
Jim
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fhansen
Oldbie
This is called having faith in one’s faith, aka “fiduciary faith”. Almost as if one must simply resolve to keep believing no matter what, a notion set forth by Luther at one point as I recall. “As long as I believe that I believe then I believe that I must be saved.” Anyway, it places way to much of the onus for our salvation on faith alone.
Faith isn’t the equivalent of righteousness for man, nor is it a replacement for righteousness nor is it a license to be free from the obligation to be righteous. Rather, faith is finally the authentic means to true righteousness because it’s the means to the Author of all goodness and righteousness: to the God whom Adam thought little enough of so as to spurn Him, as his God. Faith reestablishes personal fellowship or communion with God, as is the right and just order of things for man, even if this relationship is only partially and imperfectly realized here on earth.
“...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9
So that relationship, with the Trinity now dwelling within, is the essence of justice or righteousness for man, making us new creations as it produces the “righteousness of God” within us, He placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. The primary virtue here is love, an essential attribute of God’s own nature and the very definition of justice for man, that which makes us just or righteous, that justifies us, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. So to the extent that we remain in God and He in us, to the extent that we continue to take this relationship and the new life it offers seriously, we will maintain and grow in holiness and righteousness. Love is the heart and soul of the gospel, the reason behind everything that Jesus said and did. And we’re to now love as He does, because He first loved us and enables us to do the same as we accept, embrace, and act on that gift.
Love is to be the motivation behind the mercy of forgiving others, without which our Father won’t forgive us (Matt 6:14-15), or behind the good we must do to inherit eternal life (Rom 2:7), or the works prepared for us in advance as per Eph 2:10 or those things done “for the least of these” in Matt 25, acts of love that form the basis for separating the sheep from the goats. Love fulfills the law (Rom 13:10).
“And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Rom 5:5
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6
As a teaching I’m familiar with puts it, quoting a 16th century believer:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
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That is not agreeing. The church or new creation is described by what she eats or takes in . . wheat. Wheat never becomes tares (poison)
Two different foundations they are mixed together in this world (not the world to come) the kingdoms (plural) of men or sects become the kingdom singular of God . It becomes of men or of God. God is not a man .
The tares representing poison went out from the wheat because from it (tares false) doctrine never was part of the church. One produces life the other death.
Wheat is used to represent the incorruptible seed by which all men are born again after. Tares are used as false doctrine the seed of unbelief (no faith not little none.)
You have offered what you say is the difference.
There is no such mention called "Kingdoms (plural) of Heaven" . Those three words you have offered "kingdoms of heaven" Do not appear as doctrine .
There is mention of the Kingdom (singular) of God made up of the kingdoms or religious sects of this world. They become one .
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
One Kingdom one God.
Tares (false prophecy) does not enter the new heavens and earth. Its at hand not here.
Matthew 10:7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Not kingdoms in heaven, plural . Kingdom, singular . There will be no division or denominations in the new born again order, But all one member the chaste virgin bride, the church.
As Ambassadors for Christ sent from the unseen kingdom our citizen ship is not of here under the Sun the place of tares.
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Faith is a work or labor of love. We have a exclusive faith (sola scriptura) that mutually works in all who do beleive as those who confess with their lips. . The power comes from Christ's work of faith .
Not a faith of our own according to a work we can do . We are considered faithless from birth.. . no faith not little, none.
What we need to is hear is God our first love that works his labor of love in us so that in return we could believe Him not seen .the same love we return to when and if we do harden our hearts in unbelief .
His faith that works in us is not alone it strengthens us to hear the will of the unseen Holy Father as did the Son of man Jesus , and empower us like Jesus, to obey it.
We would never assume the power is of the church (us.) His faith that works in us abides with us. He who works in us promises us he will never leave or forsake the believer.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
“As long as I believe that I believe the power to beleive being loosed from heaven and bound on my new born again heart then I believe that I must be saved. Or call Christ the liar who did begin the good work of faith in us .
It is simply impossible to separate Christ's faith (the will) from works (the power needed to obey the will ). Its both to will and do and not to will and do nothing .(dead faith towards God )
In that way in John 21. Peter called Jesus a liar. When our brother in the Lord Peter just reinstated (forgiven) started a oral tradition of the fathers that John world not die so that peter could glory in the flesh of men called fathers. . Jesus did the work of exposing the lie in so much that John would not die. Peter again like in Mathew 16 glorying in the flesh of mankind when he blasphemed the Son of man, Jesus. Forbidding Jesus from performing the work of faith the gospel as the Father worked with him . .Jesus delighted to do the will of the father not seen ."Not as I will but as you will" he replied to the father.
Jonah was dragged to finish the work the Spirit of Christ began in him .Jonah would of rather died . We should follow the example of Jesus believe the Father, as he works in us to make it possible.
Jesus informed us if every time he had to dispel what some call sacred traditions of fathers then we would need a bigger world to hold the volumes that could of ben written. Peter was warned over and over to not venerate the flesh of corrupted mankind .
He is our confidence we are to put no confidence in powerless flesh and blood.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
In that way where your new born again treasure is thier a person wil fing thier new softer heart.
If we say our faith needed to believe God not seen is of here ( loosed from earth bound in the unseen heaven ) walking by sight then mankind has received the reward. . . other men venerated them rather than our Unseen Holy Father
Matthew 6 [Full Chapter] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: ..
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fhansen
Oldbie
Yes, faith is both a gift-and a very human act as we respond to and embrace that gift.
Of course not. The purpose of the church is basically to introduce us to God.
Yes, but faith doesn't necessarily accomplish this by itself; rather it's the doorway to this love because it's the doorway to God, the very Source of love. So Paul could say in 1 Cor 13:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."
And Augustine could later say:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
And James, of course:
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
Love is the difference. Love always does what's right, for the good of others, and certainly never harms. Faith is the beginning of it all, from our perspective, in response to grace, to God's initiative. Either way Scripture is quite clear that a person can turn and walk back away from faith, hope, and love-walk away from God IOW.
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How nice, we can agree on at least one thing.
Although I don't know if the "notion" (as you described it) came
from Luther. In any case, it's just another (false) WORKS GOSPEL
to pretend that man generates saving "faith" before regeneration.
But, unfortunately, we do not agree for long... since the Saints
(I assume that's WHO you mean, the CONTEXT of your words)
are not "judged on our love", since we already have the "indwelling"
Holy Spirit of our adoption, and Jesus already PAID for all of our sins
and there is, therefore NO CONDEMNATION for the "Bride of Christ".
Mat 25:10-13
And while they [the Last Tares of "foolish virgins"] went to buy,
the bridegroom [Jesus] came; and they that were ready
[the Last Saints or "wise virgins"] went in with him [to where?]
to the marriage: and the door was shut. [Final Harvest is done] Afterward came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying, Lord, Lord,
open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you,
I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye [Last Saints, or "ten virgins"]
know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
In your comments above:
(1) If "we" (the saved "wheat" in the church) are REALLY "judged
on our love"... that is just another form of a WORKS GOSPEL.
Demonstrating it's not Biblical and just another synergistic heresy.
(2) And if "we" (are unsaved "tares" in the church or any of the
lost souls OUTSIDE the church) are REALLY "judged on our love"... that is just another synergistic WORKS GOSPEL, or heresy.
Besides that, I will remind you that many Jews and Moslems and
Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists and Agnostics and Humanists
show TREMENDOUS "love" to their fellow man.... however none
of them can ever hope for salvation - since they have no Savior.
Again you demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between the True Gospel
of Sovereign Grace and the false "gospel" (or heresy) of synergism.
And you present a pretty good example of WHY only monergism
can seriously be considered to be the True Gospel of the Bible.
Jim
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First, you are incorrectly implying that someone who was "chosen"
or "elected" before the foundation of the world could be LOST...
when JESUS PROMISES that He will lose NONE.
You clearly contradict Jesus.
Secondly, you are incorrectly implying that someone who is "chosen"
or "elected" CONTRIBUTES to the GRACE that saves... or the
GRACE that "conforms" when the Bible clearly teaches us
WHERE the basis of the elects' actions come from:
Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will [which is a mental action or "work"]
and to do [which is a physical action or "work"]
of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
In other words, it is God's Sovereign Grace that "chooses" us
before we are born and it's God's Sovereign Grace that "conforms"
us into the "image of His son". Man can take ZERO credit...
which demonstrates the heresy of a synergistic "gospel".
Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that
love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow [before time], he also did predestinate
[or "elect"] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might
be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, ["elect"] them he also called: [regenerated] and
whom he called, [the "elect"] them he also justified: and
whom he justified, [the "elect"] them he also glorified. What
shall we then say to these things? [to the True monergistic Gospel]
If God be for us, who can be against us?
Note:
please consider the words "THE CALLED according to His purpose"
What a beautiful phrased about the "election" of salvation.
You see, the DANGER of following a synergistic heresy is that you
teach that God is NOT sovereign in the salvation process... that
HE NEEDS the help of man to accomplish His Purpose.
That is just a LIE, according to the Gospel.
And I can easily DEMONSTRATE the lie of a synergistic heresy
by asking just ONE very simple question:
Is it possible for ANY of those God "chose" or "elected" before time
to NOT become saved - can God ever FAIL in His Purpose? And the
answer is self-evident for all the "elect"... as the Bible PROMISED
it would be. His sheep hear His voice, and will not follow another.
It is simply NOT POSSIBLE for the "elect" to become heretics.
Another HALF-TRUTH (aka, a LIE)
Of course the church is purposed to "call" all the "lost sheep".
And, of course, the church is purposed to "feed" those sheep.
However, one of the "basic" purposes of the church is to
(a) identify any unsaved "tares" in the church by their "fruit"
of bad behavior OR false doctrines and (b) to REBUKE those
people (as some are "babes in Christ" needing much correction)
and (c) to EXPEL from the church all those who refuse to repent
and to SEPARATE from known "tares" or "children of Satan"...
which the real saints can easily identify by their "fruit" of either
bad behavior OR false "gospels"... like the WORKS GOSPELS
based on synergism.
Jim
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Brightfame52
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5thking
Thats absolutely inaccurate. It was written of those who received Christ and believed on His Name during His earthly ministry, had been born of God Jn 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
They believed on Him prior to the sending of the Spirit Jn 7:39
. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22
Man naturally cannot believe on Christ.
Thats absolutely inaccurate. It was written of those who received Christ and believed on His Name during His earthly ministry, had been born of God Jn 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
They believed on Him prior to the sending of the Spirit Jn 7:39
. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22
Man naturally cannot believe on Christ.
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5th Kingdom of Heaven said:
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
You are REFUTED with (many) Scriptures. Here are a few
(listed below). But I must say I find it amazing to have to
teach such a BASIC and ESSENTIAL part of the Gospel.
This really is Christian theology 101.
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you
all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come,
whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Act 2:1-4
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly
there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared
unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:16-21
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth
beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be
turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great
and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that
whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now you are DEFLECTING to a different subject altogether...
which means you are constructing a STRAWMAN to knock down.
When you build (and knock down) a strawman you only prove that
(a) you do not understand the SUBJECT of the debate or (b) you
do understand, but cannot win the debate so you DEFLECT into
another subject, so to CONFLATE issues. I will remind you
what MY WORDS were... this is what we are debating:
------------------------------------------------------------------
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have provided you SCRIPTURES showing the Apostles and
disciples of Christ DID NOT receive the "indwelling" Holy Spirit until
Pentecost. That was the SUBJECT of our debate and my position
has been PROVEN by Scripture.
The only question NOW is whether you have SCRIPTURE that says
the Apostles or disciples were "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit BEFORE
the Cross or BEFORE the Day of Pentecost. If you have any such
Scripture I would love to see it.
Jim
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
You are REFUTED with (many) Scriptures. Here are a few
(listed below). But I must say I find it amazing to have to
teach such a BASIC and ESSENTIAL part of the Gospel.
This really is Christian theology 101.
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you
all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come,
whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Act 2:1-4
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly
there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared
unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:16-21
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth
beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be
turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great
and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that
whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now you are DEFLECTING to a different subject altogether...
which means you are constructing a STRAWMAN to knock down.
When you build (and knock down) a strawman you only prove that
(a) you do not understand the SUBJECT of the debate or (b) you
do understand, but cannot win the debate so you DEFLECT into
another subject, so to CONFLATE issues. I will remind you
what MY WORDS were... this is what we are debating:
------------------------------------------------------------------
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
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So I have provided you SCRIPTURES showing the Apostles and
disciples of Christ DID NOT receive the "indwelling" Holy Spirit until
Pentecost. That was the SUBJECT of our debate and my position
has been PROVEN by Scripture.
The only question NOW is whether you have SCRIPTURE that says
the Apostles or disciples were "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit BEFORE
the Cross or BEFORE the Day of Pentecost. If you have any such
Scripture I would love to see it.
Jim
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Brightfame52
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You refuted with just one scripture passage Jn 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
They which believed on His Name during His earthly ministry had been born of God.
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Your fight is with JESUS (not me)
It was JESUS that said the Holy Spirit would be sent
AFTER He had ascended. I sent you a bunch of SCRIPTURES
which teach you that Biblical Truth... and you IGNORED them all.
Now, WHY in the world would someone want to IGNORE
the Words of Christ? Maybe because those Words contradict
a presupposition, so ignoring them does not destroy their "gospel".
Jim
BTW: John 1:12-13 must HARMONIZE with the Words of Christ
that I GAVE YOU in post #133. If you cannot HARMONIZE your
"theory" with the WORDS of CHRIST (in six different passages)
then you are either (a) proven wrong or (b) claiming the Bible
has contradictions and errors... and, therefore, you can just
SELECT the passages you like and IGNORE all the passages
that contradict your "theories". Good luck with that "theology".
.
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But NOBODY was "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.
And I showed you six (6) passages teaching that Biblical Truth.
That is the issue we are discussing.
So the QUESTION you must deal with is simple:
WHAT does "born of God" mean in John 1?
But your CONCLUSION must HARMONIZE with the six (6)
passages I gave you which declare the Holy Spirit was not sent
until AFTER He ascended.
The FIRST lesson of Bible study is you cannot even pretend
to have found Biblical Truth until you "theory" HARMONIZES
with ALL RELATED Scripture... if there are ANY contradictions
it means your "theory" is wrong - not that Scripture is wrong.
Jim
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fhansen
Oldbie
No I don't. He knows who they are-while we do not with 100% certainty.
As Augustine put it:
"He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent." We cannot possibly be saved apart from Him- but we can still refuse to be saved. Christianity 101. No sin would ever have entered God's creation to begin with-or continue to prevail- if not for this freedom of human and angelic choice. And that same freedom is never completely overridden by God-because He wants our right choice; that's why He gave man freedom to begin with. So listen to some wise church teachings, if wisdom is at all desired:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.
Only grace can free us from this slavery-and yet, as said, we can still resist that grace. That's the reason for all the drama-all the pain, suffering, sin, and evil that man has experienced-has literally known-down through the centuries, so that we might come to our senses and just gain the wisdom to say yes instead of no to God when He comes calling, after living in a relatively godless world.
The church never moves fast enough on these matters as far as most of us are concerned-but there will always be tares present nonetheless. Either way she preaches what wheat should do, what constitutes the good fruit that should be produced IOW.
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24
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fhansen
Oldbie
We gain admission into the kingdom, into God's fellowship, by faith, in response to the grace that provides that gift of faith to begin with. We aren't forced to enter into that relationship, however, nor are we forced to remain in it after entrance. There's no condemnation for anyone who remains, however, which means that by the grace Christ won for us they'll wash their robes (Rev 22:14), they'll overcome sin, they'll put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:12-13), they'll do for "the least of these" (Matt 25:14), they'll obey the commandments (Matt 19:17), all criteria given by which we'll be judged, and all criteria which, when truly and properly met by God's standards, are motivated and accomplished by the love that He'll pour into out our hearts (Rom 5:5) as we continue to draw near to Him and remain there.
To the extent that we know God and His will for man we understand this simple yet profound truth:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
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First, you are incorrectly implying that someone who was "chosen"
or "elected" before the foundation of the world could be LOST...
when JESUS PROMISES that He will lose NONE.
You clearly contradict Jesus.
Well, please excuse me if I misunderstood your meaning.
But, when some says (as you did) that "faith' is not only a gift
but also contingent on something WE DO... then, with only that
information, it appears that MEN can choose to accept or reject
God given "faith", and that is not possible, according to Jesus.
When you said (and I quote you) "... as we respond to and
embrace that gift." That implies that MEN can choose to NOT
accept the "faith" God has given them, that the will of man is
greater than the Will of God, and that is complete nonsense.
That implies that men can STOP GOD from regenerating them.
What Scripture can you offer to support such a notion? Without
presenting Scripture, you are only expressing your "feelings" or
offering you "opinion" and I want to deal with neither.
Now, why in the world would I care WHAT St Augustine said
when I have (a) the Bible and (b) the "indwelling" spirit that
TEACHES me everything I need to know? Augustine was a
fallible man. I am a follower of the Bible, not any man.
That is so untrue.
You are saying someone GOD ELECTED TO SAVE before time,
can overcome God's purpose in time... making God a failure.
That is ridiculous. God cannot EVER FAIL to accomplish His
purpose. THAT is Christianity 101... you have ADDED
your "feelings" or "opinion" to the Word of God.
But, if I am wrong, just provide SCRIPTURE that teaches that
any of God's "chosen" or "elected" (before time) can somehow
OVERCOME GOD'S PURPOSE (in time). Give chapter and verse.
(1) First, we are talking about humans, so let's not conflate the
issue by introducing Angels into the discussion.
(2) Secondly, we are not talking about God's creation of man
BEFORE the fall, we are talking about man AFTER the fall.
So let's not conflate these two issues.
(3) Finally, you are ASSUMING that sin results from our "free will"
without even DEFINING your meaning of "free will". The Bible does
NOT teach that Adam had a sinful nature, but it teaches fallen man does.
We we cannot pretend Adam's "free will" is the same as our "free will".
So, you will have to DEFINE what you mean by "free will" because the
Bible teaches that FALLEN MAN has a sin nature and we sin "freely".
Un-regenerated men WANT to sin, we (are slaves to Satan and we)
sin of our own "free will".
Both the OT and NT PROMISE that (unregenerated) man will
NEVER "seek God", or do any good, no, not even one.
Without regeneration we have a "heart of stone" and
EVERYTHING we do is as "filthy rags".
What is this "freedom" you speak of?
Do you not know that JESUS revealed that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or to "understand" the Gospel
and they were NEVER MEANT to "be conformed" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven"?
Please explain to me HOW such men have the "freedom" to
"choose" to have saving "faith" when they were NEVER MEANT
to "have their sins forgiven"?
You are ADDING to Scripture. You are expressing your "feelings"
and you "opinion", and nothing more.
Again, please tell me WHERE is this "freedom" you speak of in men
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel,
or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven"?
You are arguing that men who were NEVER MEANT to be saved
somehow have the "free will" to save themselves. This notion
is not found in the Bible... you ADDED it to the Bible.
BTW:
I am not arguing that men don't have the "freedom" to choose
to wear white socks or black socks... of course men have their
"free will" in secular matters. But we are talking about spiritual
matters and FALLEN MEN do not possess the "free will" to ever
"seek God" or do any good... until AFTER regeneration.
I understand that is your "feeling" or your "opinion" (apparently)
taught to you by some MEN. I am only asking you to PROVE
that notion by providing SCRIPTURE that says those who
God has "chosen" or "elected" (before time) can really
OVERCOME His Purpose (in time). Send Scripture
teaching God can FAIL to achieve His Purpose.
As we have already seen in Scripture [Mark 4:12] some men
were NEVER MEANT to "have their sins forgiven" (be saved)
so they are never given saving Grace to "resist"... the CONTEXT
of our discussion is then LIMITED to those men God has "chosen"
or "elected" (before time). Can any of these men overcome what
God has purposed (in time)... making God a FAILURE and subject
to the will of these men?
Again, you can PROVE your theory by simply showing (in Scripture)
where it teaches men "chosen" or "elected" (before time)
can NOT be saved (in time).
You do not get to argue about the RESULT of something
you have not already PROVEN your theory to be Biblical.
FIRST you need to prove your theory is supported by SCRIPTURE
(not "feelings" or "opinions") and THEN you can argue about
the RESULTS of that Biblical teaching.
First, thank you for finally offering some SCRIPTURE.
Secondly, now we need to find the CONTEXT of that Scripture.
(a) is James 2:24 talking to men who are regenerated? If so,
then those (good) works are the RESULT of them already being
regenerated (not the cause). So it is the "fruit" of saved men is
they will demonstrate that salvation with their "good works".
So, we cannot imply this CONTEXT to un-regenerated men.
Php 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, [the elect] as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God
which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(b) is James 2:24 talking to men who were NEVER MEANT to be
able to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel or "be forgiven"
or "have their sins forgiven". Or, are these men NOT INCLUDED
in the CONTEXT of the verse?
Mar 4:11-12
And he said unto them [His disciples], Unto you it is given
to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God: but unto them
that are without [the Kingdom of God], all these things are done
in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and
hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME
they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
(c) is James 2:24 talking to "natural men" (before regeneration)?
if so, that would be a CONTRADICTION to Scripture insisting, in
both the OT and NT, that "natural men" will NEVER "seek God"
or do "any good". Is "natural man" the CONTEXT of the verse?
1Co_2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 3:10-12
As it is written [in Psalms], There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh
after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
With regard to James 2:24 (or ANY passage of Scripture)
If we are not able to discern the CONTEXT of the passage then
we have no hope of ever understanding the MEANING of the verses.
You cannot take passages where the CONTEXT is the elect/saved
and apply those verses to "natural man" or those NEVER MEANT
to "have their sins forgiven". Again, this is Christianity 101.
Jim
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(1) If "we" (the saved "wheat" in the church) are REALLY
"judgedon our love"... that is just another WORKS GOSPEL.
Demonstrating it's not Biblical and just a synergistic heresy.
(2) And if "we" (are unsaved "tares" in the church or any of the
lost souls OUTSIDE the church) are REALLY "judged on our love"
... that is just another synergistic WORKS GOSPEL, or heresy.
Besides that, I will remind you that many Jews and Moslems and
Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists and Agnostics and Humanists
show TREMENDOUS "love" to their fellow man.... however none
of them can ever hope for salvation - since they have no Savior.
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So, when we TEST your "theory" we must preach that all those who
are NOT CHRISTIAN can still have eternal life with Christ as long
as they show TREMENDOUS LOVE to their fellow man. This
notion is nothing but heresy... there is ONE WAY to God
and those rejecting Jesus and His Gospel are lost.
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Again you demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between the True Gospel
of Sovereign Grace and the false "gospel" (or heresy) of synergism.
And you present a pretty good example of WHY only monergism
can seriously be considered to be the True Gospel of the Bible.
Jim
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