- Oct 11, 2020
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Hello, fellow forummates and Christians!
It has been a bit since I have been on this site, but I have returned, and, I believe in good faith and charity. It pleases me to be among brothers of the faith, disregarding denomination and practice as long as we all affirm the core tenets of Christ's redeeming work on the cross for salvation.
Onward!
I have a bit of a problem, you see. I tend to see that debate has plagued our landscape of what we call society and this, no doubt, finds its way into the Christian sector as well.
I would if I could amend this, not at all in any manner of totality, but whatever may be the case where I might change minds might suit well with my soul.
And of course, the position is that debate, as we have come to know it, is almost unrivalled in dogmas and rules such as discussing this and that which may end up becoming a fallacy of sorts insofar as it does not agree with the "logical conclusion" of the consensus of the masses for identifying this or that as an improper argument. My brothers and sisters in Christ, consider your attitude for this is of course a matter of spiritual importance. The problem insofar as I see it is that we have left an agreeable and charitably nature by the wayside in favor of this same "logical conclusion" that one's attitude is of no consequence and the only thing that matters, is the argument itself. I believe this is a misjudgement by the world thereby making its way in the Church, the people of God, who are to live Holy lives in service to our Jesus, Yeshua. I say, let Him decide who is right and who is wrong. Though some matters are of course up for differences of opinion, it is clear to me that these things should not divide us as the Body of Christ, but for us to be aware of. For just as Corinth was not the same explicitly in doctrine as Galatia, and we might also point to the differences in the different Churches in Revelation... I digress. Not to say in some specific sense we unite in doctrine necessarily as not to offend those brothers and sisters who claim to be the True Church, but rather to point out that there have always been differences in the Body of Christ.
Now, there might be a matter of contention here insofar as someone might say, "debate is good and healthy and allows for iron to sharpen iron" to which I would politely point towards some Church fathers that perhaps we can all agree with as well as my pointing to the Bible in good faith.
The first example I might give is probably more well seen upon the second. Nevertheless, the Bible is first and foremost the principle we should all set as the standard for one to make a point lest it look like one does not know what he or she is talking about. While there might be differences in opinion even in this as there were of course others who might do well to fact check such as the Bereans, such that what they do is honorable, but nonetheless what Paul desired from them.
Yes, I first wish to show you by example the exemplary behavior of the Thessalonians and their Good Works in which it appears many were saved. And by this I mean that their Character was one of learning, and, more specifically, taking the message of Christ with joyful hearts, not bickering among them, but rejoicing in the Truth.
1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 "And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Now, the principle message I wish to convey here is that these men and women were not prone to debate or delineate much over the errors as they might be perceived in Paul's teaching, but were astute in listening like good children. So much so that they suffered for their faith, but to which yielded much good fruit and harvest in their evangelism.
The second, as I might point out, is to show the character of a Godly man who also had a rather different course of dialog than much of those who aim to argue simply to hear themselves talk. I speak of Augustine specifically, and though I have not read all he has had to say, I would say he would think my position somewhat agreeable in nature and akin, possibly, to his own disposition. I bring you of course to his first book wherein he talks to some length about how people of the Christian faith might agree and disagree with one another. As I believe this is immensely valuable to our aim here as a community of Christians, I will quote it for you here:
"Further let me ask of my reader, wherever, alike with myself, he is certain, there to go on with me; wherever, alike with myself, he hesitates, there to join with me in inquiring; wherever he recognizes himself to be in error, there to return to me; wherever he recognizes me to be so, there to call me back: so that we may enter together upon the path of charity, and advance towards Him of whom it is said, 'Seek His face evermore.'"
Now, the whole chapter is of course worthy of a full read, but I quote this section here because Augustine tends to hit the point right away and then explain how he got there. So as to keep it succinct, I have quoted the actual point and will let those who have access to such materials read what else he has to say if and when they would like.
To the point of Augustine, I make note that there is not in any way malice or contempt in the way he might view differences in opinion, and in fact, it seems he might even default to a charitable nature in disagreements, and, of course it is logical for him to expect the same with whom he is in discussion of such things.
That might be all for this OP which I give here. Let it rest with you as it will.
It has been a bit since I have been on this site, but I have returned, and, I believe in good faith and charity. It pleases me to be among brothers of the faith, disregarding denomination and practice as long as we all affirm the core tenets of Christ's redeeming work on the cross for salvation.
Onward!
I have a bit of a problem, you see. I tend to see that debate has plagued our landscape of what we call society and this, no doubt, finds its way into the Christian sector as well.
I would if I could amend this, not at all in any manner of totality, but whatever may be the case where I might change minds might suit well with my soul.
And of course, the position is that debate, as we have come to know it, is almost unrivalled in dogmas and rules such as discussing this and that which may end up becoming a fallacy of sorts insofar as it does not agree with the "logical conclusion" of the consensus of the masses for identifying this or that as an improper argument. My brothers and sisters in Christ, consider your attitude for this is of course a matter of spiritual importance. The problem insofar as I see it is that we have left an agreeable and charitably nature by the wayside in favor of this same "logical conclusion" that one's attitude is of no consequence and the only thing that matters, is the argument itself. I believe this is a misjudgement by the world thereby making its way in the Church, the people of God, who are to live Holy lives in service to our Jesus, Yeshua. I say, let Him decide who is right and who is wrong. Though some matters are of course up for differences of opinion, it is clear to me that these things should not divide us as the Body of Christ, but for us to be aware of. For just as Corinth was not the same explicitly in doctrine as Galatia, and we might also point to the differences in the different Churches in Revelation... I digress. Not to say in some specific sense we unite in doctrine necessarily as not to offend those brothers and sisters who claim to be the True Church, but rather to point out that there have always been differences in the Body of Christ.
Now, there might be a matter of contention here insofar as someone might say, "debate is good and healthy and allows for iron to sharpen iron" to which I would politely point towards some Church fathers that perhaps we can all agree with as well as my pointing to the Bible in good faith.
The first example I might give is probably more well seen upon the second. Nevertheless, the Bible is first and foremost the principle we should all set as the standard for one to make a point lest it look like one does not know what he or she is talking about. While there might be differences in opinion even in this as there were of course others who might do well to fact check such as the Bereans, such that what they do is honorable, but nonetheless what Paul desired from them.
Yes, I first wish to show you by example the exemplary behavior of the Thessalonians and their Good Works in which it appears many were saved. And by this I mean that their Character was one of learning, and, more specifically, taking the message of Christ with joyful hearts, not bickering among them, but rejoicing in the Truth.
1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 "And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Now, the principle message I wish to convey here is that these men and women were not prone to debate or delineate much over the errors as they might be perceived in Paul's teaching, but were astute in listening like good children. So much so that they suffered for their faith, but to which yielded much good fruit and harvest in their evangelism.
The second, as I might point out, is to show the character of a Godly man who also had a rather different course of dialog than much of those who aim to argue simply to hear themselves talk. I speak of Augustine specifically, and though I have not read all he has had to say, I would say he would think my position somewhat agreeable in nature and akin, possibly, to his own disposition. I bring you of course to his first book wherein he talks to some length about how people of the Christian faith might agree and disagree with one another. As I believe this is immensely valuable to our aim here as a community of Christians, I will quote it for you here:
"Further let me ask of my reader, wherever, alike with myself, he is certain, there to go on with me; wherever, alike with myself, he hesitates, there to join with me in inquiring; wherever he recognizes himself to be in error, there to return to me; wherever he recognizes me to be so, there to call me back: so that we may enter together upon the path of charity, and advance towards Him of whom it is said, 'Seek His face evermore.'"
Now, the whole chapter is of course worthy of a full read, but I quote this section here because Augustine tends to hit the point right away and then explain how he got there. So as to keep it succinct, I have quoted the actual point and will let those who have access to such materials read what else he has to say if and when they would like.
To the point of Augustine, I make note that there is not in any way malice or contempt in the way he might view differences in opinion, and in fact, it seems he might even default to a charitable nature in disagreements, and, of course it is logical for him to expect the same with whom he is in discussion of such things.
That might be all for this OP which I give here. Let it rest with you as it will.
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