claninja
Well-Known Member
2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
The destruction of Jerusalem did not come as a thief in the night. Jesus specifically said "When you see armies surrounding Jerusalem know it's destruction is near." That is not an event that occurred without a forewarning.
The heavens did not pass away with a great noise and the elements of the cosmos did not melt with fervent heat when Jerusalem was destroyed. All things weren't dissolved in the destruction of Jerusalem either. The destruction of Jerusalem was simply God using one nation of sinners to pass judgement upon another.
The day of Lord, while like a thief, does not surprise those who are in Christ.
1 thessalonians 5:3-4 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
It was not Noah who was surprised when the flood did come, it was those were oblivious that the flood was coming.
Matthew 24:36-39 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Peter compares the heavens and earth that existed prior to the flood with heavens and earth that he was then living in which were in store for fire. Therefore, just as Peter compared the heavens and earth that EXISTED prior to the flood with the heavens and earth were presently existing, I would argue we too can compare the heavens and earth that existed prior to 70ad with the heavens and earth that now exist.
2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth exist for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
I agree with Charles Spurgeon:
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication?
No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it."
Even Paul states the present form of the world was passing away in the 1st century.
1 Corinthians 7:31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
stoicheion (elements): In all uses of the NT outside of 2 Peter 3 refers to:
stoixeíon– properly, fundamentals, like with the basic components of a philosophy, structure, etc.; (figuratively) "first principles," like the basic fundamentals of Christianity.
[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).
Therefore, I interpret "elements" as the same rudimentary principles of the world, and NOT the periodic table of elements.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.c
Death still reigns on this current earth. We are not immortal. So therefore your interpretation of the passing away of heavens and earth can not be related to the destruction of Jerusalem.
The power of sin came from the law
1 Corinthians 15:54-56 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law came to increase the trespass.
Romans 5:13-14, 20-21 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
However, The ministry of Death was being brought to end in the 1st century
2 Corinthians 7:7-8 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
The law was not to pass away until heaven and earth did.
Matthew 5:18 truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Therefore I would argue he old obsolete covenant's (ministry of death, sin's power) removal took place at the destruction of the temple
LOL - All were killed and slaughtered with in! The only people left alive at the end of the siege were part of, or somehow otherwise connected to the Roman army.
Primary Sources - Josephus Describes The Romans' Sack Of Jerusalem | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS
No, all were not killed. A large number were sold into slavery.
So you deny the final resurrection? Are you also a Docetae?
No and No
You are aware that if you don't believe in the physical resurrection from the dead; you are a heretic according to Scripture.
I agree that those who don't believe in a future physical resurrection from a natural body to a spiritual body are heretics.
I absolutely believe in a future, physical resurrection from the natural body to a spiritual body for the believer.
I can say with certainty, that I am not writing to your from a physically resurrected spiritual body. I can confidently say that is still future.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
I can confidently say that I have not yet died and stood before the judgment seat of Christ. That is still future for me.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.
Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.
Yet Scripture declares that there are those who were physically raised after Jesus rose. Which was long before the destruction of Jerusalem.
I would argue that their "resurrections" were similar to that of Lazarus, natural body to natural body, NOT natural body to spiritual body as in the final resurrection. Otherwise, Paul was wrong about Hymenaeus and Philetus.
2 timothy 2:17-18 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.
So am I correct in my assessment that you do not believe in a final resurrection and recreation of the cosmos?
Nope, as I am not a full preterist.
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