Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

claninja

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2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

The destruction of Jerusalem did not come as a thief in the night. Jesus specifically said "When you see armies surrounding Jerusalem know it's destruction is near." That is not an event that occurred without a forewarning.

The heavens did not pass away with a great noise and the elements of the cosmos did not melt with fervent heat when Jerusalem was destroyed. All things weren't dissolved in the destruction of Jerusalem either. The destruction of Jerusalem was simply God using one nation of sinners to pass judgement upon another.

The day of Lord, while like a thief, does not surprise those who are in Christ.

1 thessalonians 5:3-4 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

It was not Noah who was surprised when the flood did come, it was those were oblivious that the flood was coming.

Matthew 24:36-39 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.


Peter compares the heavens and earth that existed prior to the flood with heavens and earth that he was then living in which were in store for fire. Therefore, just as Peter compared the heavens and earth that EXISTED prior to the flood with the heavens and earth were presently existing, I would argue we too can compare the heavens and earth that existed prior to 70ad with the heavens and earth that now exist.

2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth exist for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I agree with Charles Spurgeon:

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication?

No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it."

Even Paul states the present form of the world was passing away in the 1st century.
1 Corinthians 7:31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.



stoicheion (elements): In all uses of the NT outside of 2 Peter 3 refers to:

stoixeíon– properly, fundamentals, like with the basic components of a philosophy, structure, etc.; (figuratively) "first principles," like the basic fundamentals of Christianity.

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).

Therefore, I interpret "elements" as the same rudimentary principles of the world, and NOT the periodic table of elements.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.c



Death still reigns on this current earth. We are not immortal. So therefore your interpretation of the passing away of heavens and earth can not be related to the destruction of Jerusalem.

The power of sin came from the law
1 Corinthians 15:54-56 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

The law came to increase the trespass.
Romans 5:13-14, 20-21 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

However, The ministry of Death was being brought to end in the 1st century
2 Corinthians 7:7-8 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


The law was not to pass away until heaven and earth did.

Matthew 5:18 truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Therefore I would argue he old obsolete covenant's (ministry of death, sin's power) removal took place at the destruction of the temple



LOL - All were killed and slaughtered with in! The only people left alive at the end of the siege were part of, or somehow otherwise connected to the Roman army.

Primary Sources - Josephus Describes The Romans' Sack Of Jerusalem | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

No, all were not killed. A large number were sold into slavery.

So you deny the final resurrection? Are you also a Docetae?

No and No

You are aware that if you don't believe in the physical resurrection from the dead; you are a heretic according to Scripture.

I agree that those who don't believe in a future physical resurrection from a natural body to a spiritual body are heretics.

I absolutely believe in a future, physical resurrection from the natural body to a spiritual body for the believer.

I can say with certainty, that I am not writing to your from a physically resurrected spiritual body. I can confidently say that is still future.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I can confidently say that I have not yet died and stood before the judgment seat of Christ. That is still future for me.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Yet Scripture declares that there are those who were physically raised after Jesus rose. Which was long before the destruction of Jerusalem.

I would argue that their "resurrections" were similar to that of Lazarus, natural body to natural body, NOT natural body to spiritual body as in the final resurrection. Otherwise, Paul was wrong about Hymenaeus and Philetus.

2 timothy 2:17-18 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

So am I correct in my assessment that you do not believe in a final resurrection and recreation of the cosmos?

Nope, as I am not a full preterist.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The day of Lord, while like a thief, does not surprise those who are in Christ.

Yet how is it that you confuse the passages people normally interpret as the final judgement with what happened in Jerusalem. Where are the passages about the final resurrection than?

Peter compares the heavens and earth that existed prior to the flood with heavens and earth that he was then living in which were in store for fire. Therefore, just as Peter compared the heavens and earth that EXISTED prior to the flood with the heavens and earth were presently existing, I would argue we too can compare the heavens and earth that existed prior to 70ad with the heavens and earth that now exist.

Yet, the earth of Noah's day was destroyed by a flood; not fire.

And the state of sin that existed prior to 70 AD still exists today. So....

Scripture connects the burning with fire to the final resurrection. All things are made new after the elements melt with fervent heat. You say that happened at the destruction of Jerusalem; yet we do not live in a renewed world. We do not live in a world where there is no death. We do not live in a world where there is no sin.

Even Paul states the present form of the world was passing away in the 1st century.
1 Corinthians 7:31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

Yet, this world hasn't been destroyed with fire.

Therefore, I interpret "elements" as the same rudimentary principles of the world, and NOT the periodic table of elements.

So you don't believe the cosmos is recreated at the final resurrection? What are the new heavens and the new earth then if sin and death still reign?

However, The ministry of Death was being brought to end in the 1st century
2 Corinthians 7:7-8 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The law was not to pass away until heaven and earth did.

How does God judge anyone who has existed post 70 AD then?

Therefore I would argue he old obsolete covenant's (ministry of death, sin's power) removal took place at the destruction of the temple

So.... post 70 AD human beings have the ability not to sin now all the sudden?

No, all were not killed. A large number were sold into slavery.

Well according to Josephus; that isn't what happened in Jerusalem. There were people in the surrounding areas that were taken as slaves (I believe Josephus said that so long as they didn't resist.) Yet Josephus is pretty clear that everyone who was left in Jerusalem was killed.

On top of that; he said the people that were captured died of plagues and starvation.

So..... flesh being saved??? For what purpose? For if one gains the world and loses their soul; what is the point of surviving an ordeal like that? If like ancient Israel they "perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief" than what exactly constituted "no flesh would be saved" and why?

That doesn't make any sense seeing how the whole message of Scripture is about redemption. And redemption that's not solely of saving the physical body.

I absolutely believe in a future, physical resurrection from the natural body to a spiritual body for the believer.

I can say with certainty, that I am not writing to your from a physically resurrected spiritual body. I can confidently say that is still future.

Yet, how do you prove that from Scripture, if all the passages that people usually interpret as speaking of the new heavens and new earth; you claim were all related to 70 AD?

What happens when one does become physically resurrected in a spiritual body? Are they not still beings that are material in entity? For if you say the resurrection is not a material one; then yes, you would be a Docetae.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I would argue that their "resurrections" were similar to that of Lazarus, natural body to natural body, NOT natural body to spiritual body as in the final resurrection. Otherwise, Paul was wrong about Hymenaeus and Philetus.

2 timothy 2:17-18 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

In this sense I would agree. They obviously had some form of material presence to them; just as the body of Jesus that went into the grave was the same body that came out of the grave. (Though obviously in a restored to life form.)

Nope, as I am not a full preterist.

Well then; what happens to the cosmos in the final judgement?
 
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claninja

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Yet how is it that you confuse the passages people normally interpret as the final judgement with what happened in Jerusalem. Where are the passages about the final resurrection than?

Let's start with which passages specifically am I confusing?


Yet, the earth of Noah's day was destroyed by a flood; not fire.

As that it what I stated, I agree.

And the state of sin that existed prior to 70 AD still exists today. So....

I agree.

Even revelation states sinners still exist outside of the new Jerusalem in the NHNE
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Nations still need healing the NHNE
Revelation 22:2 2down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

But sin for the believer has been dealt with (Hebrews 9:26).

Scripture connects the burning with fire to the final resurrection. All things are made new after the elements melt with fervent heat. You say that happened at the destruction of Jerusalem; yet we do not live in a renewed world. We do not live in a world where there is no death. We do not live in a world where there is no sin.

My position on the new heavens and earth is in agreement with the following:

EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania'
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'

Charles Spurgeon

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Jonathan Edwards (in 1739) said this in his work, “The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath, Vol. 2”:

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation.



In a 1721 sermon, the Puritan preacher John Owen said,

I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state… [A]nd then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, – the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”

Yet, this world hasn't been destroyed with fire.

The physical literal world has not been. I agree. However, the old covenant system and its temple were in 66-70ad.

So you don't believe the cosmos is recreated at the final resurrection? What are the new heavens and the new earth then if sin and death still reign?

Again, my position on the new heavens and new earth is in agreement with:

EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania'
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'

Charles Spurgeon

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Jonathan Edwards (in 1739) said this in his work, “The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath, Vol. 2”:

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation.



In a 1721 sermon, the Puritan preacher John Owen said,

I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state… [A]nd then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, – the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”

How does God judge anyone who has existed post 70 AD then?


All men are appointed to die once and then face judgment after that. This is my view.
Hebrews 9:26-27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

So.... post 70 AD human beings have the ability not to sin now all the sudden?

Nope, we still sin.

Well according to Josephus; that isn't what happened in Jerusalem. There were people in the surrounding areas that were taken as slaves (I believe Josephus said that so long as they didn't resist.) Yet Josephus is pretty clear that everyone who was left in Jerusalem was killed.

On top of that; he said the people that were captured died of plagues and starvation.

So..... flesh being saved??? For what purpose? For if one gains the world and loses their soul; what is the point of surviving an ordeal like that? If like ancient Israel they "perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief" than what exactly constituted "no flesh would be saved" and why?

That doesn't make any sense seeing how the whole message of Scripture is about redemption. And redemption that's not solely of saving the physical body.

Yes, slaves were taken.

wars of the jews book VI, chapter



2. And now, since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men, and yet there appeared to be a vast multitude still remaining alive, Caesar gave orders that they should kill none but those that were in arms, and opposed them, but should take the rest alive. But, together with those whom they had orders to slay, they slew the aged and the infirm; but for those that were in their flourishing age, and who might be useful to them, they drove them together into the temple, and shut them up within the walls of the court of the women; over which Caesar set one of his freed-men, as also Fronto, one of his own friends; which last was to determine every one's fate, according to his merits. So this Fronto slew all those that had been seditious and robbers, who were impeached one by another; but of the young men he chose out the tallest and most beautiful, and reserved them for the triumph; and as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines. 31 Titus also sent a great number into the provinces, as a present to them, that they might be destroyed upon their theatres, by the sword and by the wild beasts; but those that were under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Now during the days wherein Fronto was distinguishing these men, there perished, for want of food, eleven thousand; some of whom did not taste any food, through the hatred their guards bore to them; and others would not take in any when it was given them. The multitude also was so very great, that they were in want even of corn for their sustenance.

3. Now the number 32 of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten 33 belong to every sacrifice, [for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves,] and many of us are twenty in a company, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred; which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to two millions seven hundred thousand and two hundred persons that were pure and holy; for as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhea, or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice; nor indeed for any foreigners neither, who come hither to worship."

Yet, how do you prove that from Scripture, if all the passages that people usually interpret as speaking of the new heavens and new earth; you claim were all related to 70 AD?

What happens when one does become physically resurrected in a spiritual body? Are they not still beings that are material in entity? For if you say the resurrection is not a material one; then yes, you would be a Docetae.

The resurrection is physical/material = from natural body to spiritual body (like the angels). So No, I am not a docetae.

Mark 12:25 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44 is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

In this sense I would agree. They obviously had some form of material presence to them; just as the body of Jesus that went into the grave was the same body that came out of the grave. (Though obviously in a restored to life form.)

Agreed.

Well then; what happens to the cosmos in the final judgement?

I guess we will find out when we get there.
 
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Timtofly

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Even revelation states sinners still exist outside of the new Jerusalem in the NHNE
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
In the lake of fire.

The NHNE will be an upgrade of current existence. It will not be the same reality at all. This current reality is a deception of Satan any ways. When God on the throne with the Lamb appear in the 6th Seal, we will see how this earth actually is when Adam and the sons of God were created on the 6th day.

There is no way we can equate modern science we all think we know with the NHNE. It is not even structured like modern architecture, nor like ancient architecture for that matter. John was told to keep measuring, to show there is a distinct difference between now, and the change that is soon to come.

John saw it clearly, but the OT prophets saw things they barely could associate with. They did not see modern technology. They saw God’s creation which would be more strange to us than even them. That is the disconnect in our current understanding. Not that they had trouble identifying with our culture and advances. They were prophecying about God's plan on earth, not our current society.
 
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BABerean2

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Even revelation states sinners still exist outside of the new Jerusalem in the NHNE
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


The wicked are most certainly outside of the NH and NE in the passage above, but where are they located in the passage below?

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


.
 
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claninja

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The wicked are most certainly outside of the NH and NE in the passage above, but where are they located in the passage below?

Yes, the parable of the sheep and goats lines up with the great white throne judgment in revelation, where those not found in the book of life were thrown in the lake of fire. I agree.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


But I'm talking about AFTER the great white thrown judgment

Where nations walk by the light of the New Jerusalem , and nothing unclean can enter it.

Revelation 21:24-26 by its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Where nations still need healing, which comes from the New Jerusalem

Revelation 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Where only those who have washed their robes can enter the New Jerusalem, while the sinners are outside of the city and cannot enter.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Where yes, unrepentant sinners have have their portion in the 2nd death.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
 
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The Righterzpen

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Let's start with which passages specifically am I confusing?

Take note of what's said in these passages:

Blue font speaks of the generation that was contemporary to Jesus. This was the generation that would see the destruction of Judaism and Jerusalem.

Red font speaks of the destruction of the cosmos and the final Judgement which comes at the end of time.

Green font speaks of the "great tribulation".


Matthew 16:
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Note the term "glory of his Father". This happened when Jesus died and soul and spirit ascended into heaven and stood before the Father as "the lamb slain" and opened the seals in the book of Revelation.

The next verse says "some standing here". Now who of the apostles died before Jesus did? (Answer - Judas. Remember he hung himself before dawn of the morning Jesus was crucified.)


Revelation 5:
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

This "book" the Father is holding is the canon of Scripture. This is the "last will and testament" of He who would die to redeem sinners.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

This "angel" is probably Satan. He was kicked out of heaven the Tuesday Jesus left the temple; which was the last day Jesus preached. (John 12:31) This event Revelation is recording has to do with the atonement.

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I.E. sinners can't redeem themselves!

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Why is the writer of Revelation weeping? What does it mean if no one is found worthy to open the "last will and testament" of He who would die to redeem sinners. It would mean "no flesh would be saved".

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

This is a metaphoric representation of what Jesus "looked like" in soul / spirit form. Note the term "lamb slain". Now connect that to Jesus telling the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Where is this happening? The lamb that was slain is standing before the Father in heaven.) This happened the same day Jesus died. Which was literally "Today...." (which is what he said to the thief).

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

This correlates with:

Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Now go back to the end of Revelation 5; into Revelation 6. What happens at the end of Revelation 6? (Answer - we see the destruction of the cosmos and the final judgement.)

Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

This is everyone who died through the course of earthly time for the sake of the testimony of what is written in Scripture. This includes all believers both Old and New Testaments.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Time ends when the last martyr is killed.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Note this is not the same language used regarding the darkening of the sun during the crucifixion. (Isaiah 13:10, Joel 3:15, Matthew 24:29 (the "great tribulation"), Mark 13:24 (again "great tribulation"), And Luke 23:45. WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CRUCIFIXION?

Luke 23:
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Immediately after the tribulation; what happens?

45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Now why would Jesus say this if he was not ascending to the Father at the point that he died? Note that he says just before he dies "It is finished." What does that mean? What is finished? You agreed with me that the atonement was completed at the cross. That was when "flesh was saved". Now back to Revelation.

Revelation 6:
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This is the destruction of the cosmos!

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now note Matthew 25. We went over this one already. You claim this has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem. Most people interpret this passage as having to do with Judgement Day based on the context of what Jesus says happens.

Matthew 25:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Note this is not the same language as Matthew 16; which states "glory of his Father". Now look at what happens.

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The redeemed inherit the eternal kingdom.

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The unredeemed are cast into the lake of fire. The book of Revelation explains to us that this happens at the end of time. Revelation 19:20. Who's cast into the lake of fire. (Answer - those who receive the mark of the beast. Which clues us in that this beast which existed when Revelation was written, continues until Judgement Day.

Revelation 20:10: - Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.


Revelation 20:14: - Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Matthew 25 - this is Christ sitting on HIS OWN throne. Not Jesus coming before the Father's throne.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the final judgement. Note in verse 11 "earth and heaven" have "fled away".


Now let's go look at Mark 8. Here again we see the phrase "glory of his Father". In this passage Jesus is addressing the generation he's speaking to. This passage is speaking of His ascension to heaven at the point he dies. This is not talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and it's not talking about Judgement Day.

Mark 8:
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Now take a look at Luke 9, because Jesus uses both phrases in this passage.

Luke 9:
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Now note the language here. Jesus uses the term "see the kingdom of God". He does not use the term "see (Himself) come in HIS OWN glory." These are two different events. The atonement was a precursor to Judgement Day because the elect were judged at the atonement. This is when "flesh was saved".

Now what do we see in the sun and stars at the crucifixion? We see the sun is darkened and "signs.... in the stars". (Luke 21:25) (Also - as previously mentioned: Isaiah 13:10, Joel 3:15, Matthew 24:29 (the "great tribulation"), Mark 13:24 (again "great tribulation"), Luke 23:45).

What was happening in the stars at the point of the crucifixion that was indicated of the "great tribulation" having ended? "Immediately after shall the sun be darkened..." "Signs in the sun, moon and stars."

Since the atonement was a precursor to Judgement Day, because it was the judgement of the elect; what was happening in the cosmos (specifically with the other stars outside of our planetary sun)? The destruction of a portion of the cosmos had actually commenced at the crucifixion. We see evidence of this today in that satellites like Hubble telescope, can pick up the light now reaching earth from the destruction of stars in the past.

And here's how we know the "great tribulation" was connected to the atonement. (Because the things said to follow the great tribulation "sun darkened, moon not give light, signs in the stars" happened at the crucifixion.)


As that it what I stated, I agree.

Yes you agree the world of Noah's day was destroyed by water; but then you go on to say:

Peter compares the heavens and earth that existed prior to the flood with heavens and earth that he was then living in which were in store for fire. Therefore, just as Peter compared the heavens and earth that EXISTED prior to the flood with the heavens and earth were presently existing, I would argue we too can compare the heavens and earth that existed prior to 70ad with the heavens and earth that now exist.

2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth exist for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Next we deal with the rest of what you said.
 
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BABerean2

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Where only those who have washed their robes can enter the New Jerusalem, while the sinners are outside of the city and cannot enter.



If these sinners are not located in the lake of fire, where are they?


.
 
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Timtofly

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Where only those who have washed their robes can enter the New Jerusalem, while the sinners are outside of the city and cannot enter.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
This is in context of Adam's historical disobedience. It is not necessarily the NHNE. In Genesis 3, Adam and sin were banned from the Garden. At the cross, the Garden was opened as Paradise. Sin was always on the outside since Adam. Sin is ended at the Second Coming. The next 1000 years on earth will not have sin. The Garden was supposed to be the healing of the Nations, but the first Gardener, Adam disobeyed God and was banned. On the Cross, sin was finished spiritually. At the battle of Armageddon sin will be finished physically.
 
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claninja

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Take note of what's said in these passages:

Blue font speaks of the generation that was contemporary to Jesus. This was the generation that would see the destruction of Judaism and Jerusalem.

Red font speaks of the destruction of the cosmos and the final Judgement which comes at the end of time.

Green font speaks of the "great tribulation".

This was a good way to organize it. Thanks!

Matthew 16:
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Revelation 5:
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

This "book" the Father is holding is the canon of Scripture. This is the "last will and testament" of He who would die to redeem sinners.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

This "angel" is probably Satan. He was kicked out of heaven the Tuesday Jesus left the temple; which was the last day Jesus preached. (John 12:31) This event Revelation is recording has to do with the atonement.

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

I.E. sinners can't redeem themselves!

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Why is the writer of Revelation weeping? What does it mean if no one is found worthy to open the "last will and testament" of He who would die to redeem sinners. It would mean "no flesh would be saved".

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

This is a metaphoric representation of what Jesus "looked like" in soul / spirit form. Note the term "lamb slain". Now connect that to Jesus telling the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Where is this happening? The lamb that was slain is standing before the Father in heaven.) This happened the same day Jesus died. Which was literally "Today...." (which is what he said to the thief).

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

This correlates with:

Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Absolutely agree with you here that this took place during Jesus' generation leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

Note the term "glory of his Father". This happened when Jesus died and soul and spirit ascended into heaven and stood before the Father as "the lamb slain" and opened the seals in the book of Revelation.

I disagree. After the resurrection, Jesus specifically told mary he had not yet ascended to the Father. So I believe this occurred AFTER Jesus' resurrection at the ascension into glory.

John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Now go back to the end of Revelation 5; into Revelation 6. What happens at the end of Revelation 6? (Answer - we see the destruction of the cosmos and the final judgement.)

Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

This is everyone who died through the course of earthly time for the sake of the testimony of what is written in Scripture. This includes all believers both Old and New Testaments.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Time ends when the last martyr is killed.

I believe the 5th seal is symbolic for persecution and martyrdom. I don't necessarily agree that this is all in regards to the great tribulation, as Jesus reports that the saints would be persecuted and put to death prior to the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:9-11 Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.


Revelation 6:
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This is the destruction of the cosmos!

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I disagree these parabolic/symbolic/apocalyptic events are in regards to the literal destruction of the world.



The 6th seal parallels Jesus's olivet discourse, with the signs in the sky. Considering Jesus stated "this generation" will not pass away until all things have happened in the olivet discourse, we can know that 6th seal is fulfilled.

Revelation 6:12-14 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Matthew 24:29, 34-35 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Notice Isaiah uses the same language for the destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Therefore, I interpret the olivet discourse language the same way.

Isaiah 13:9-10,13 Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—
to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place


Isaiah 13:17 Behold, I will stir up against them the Medes, who have no regard for silver
and no desire for gold.

In addition, revelation's 6th seal quotes from hosea. Jesus quotes the exact same passage in hosea as coming to pass with the destruction of Jerusalem, specifically those weeping in front of him. Therefore, I would argue this passage is relevant to the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 6:15-17 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Luke 23:27-30 great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’c

Yes you agree the world of Noah's day was destroyed by water; but then you go on to say:

Correct, the heavens and earth being spoken of is the old covenant system, which is in agreement with:

EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania'
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'

Charles Spurgeon

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Jonathan Edwards (in 1739) said this in his work, “The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath, Vol. 2”:

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation.



In a 1721 sermon, the Puritan preacher John Owen said,

I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state… [A]nd then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, – the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”

Now note the language here. Jesus uses the term "see the kingdom of God". He does not use the term "see (Himself) come in HIS OWN glory." These are two different events. The atonement was a precursor to Judgement Day because the elect were judged at the atonement. This is when "flesh was saved".

Now what do we see in the sun and stars at the crucifixion? We see the sun is darkened and "signs.... in the stars". (Luke 21:25) (Also - as previously mentioned: Isaiah 13:10, Joel 3:15, Matthew 24:29 (the "great tribulation"), Mark 13:24 (again "great tribulation"), Luke 23:45).

What was happening in the stars at the point of the crucifixion that was indicated of the "great tribulation" having ended? "Immediately after shall the sun be darkened..." "Signs in the sun, moon and stars."

Since the atonement was a precursor to Judgement Day, because it was the judgement of the elect; what was happening in the cosmos (specifically with the other stars outside of our planetary sun)? The destruction of a portion of the cosmos had actually commenced at the crucifixion. We see evidence of this today in that satellites like Hubble telescope, can pick up the light now reaching earth from the destruction of stars in the past.

And here's how we know the "great tribulation" was connected to the atonement. (Because the things said to follow the great tribulation "sun darkened, moon not give light, signs in the stars" happened at the crucifixion.)

But your not providing any scripture to support you interpreting it this way. What scripture from the gospel and epistles teaches this?
 
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claninja

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If these sinners are not located in the lake of fire, where are they?

outside of the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Why do nations still need healing in the NHNE?

Revelation 22:2 the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Again my position on the NHNE is in agreement with:

EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania'

"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'

Charles Spurgeon

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Jonathan Edwards (in 1739) said this in his work, “The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath, Vol. 2”:

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation.



In a 1721 sermon, the Puritan preacher John Owen said,

I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state… [A]nd then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, – the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”
 
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BABerean2

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outside of the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


Is the lake of fire outside of New Jerusalem?


.
 
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claninja

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Is the lake of fire outside of New Jerusalem?


.

of course.

I’ve answered 2 of your questions now, without you answering any of mine. So I’ll ask again:

Do nations need healing outside of the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and earth?
 
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The Righterzpen

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Even revelation states sinners still exist outside of the new Jerusalem in the NHNE
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Both @BABerean2 and @Timtofly answered this already. These people are in the Lake of Fire.

Nations still need healing the NHNE
Revelation 22:2 2down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven upon the recreated earth. Yet the New Jerusalem exists before the destruction of the current cosmos. Where do you think the thief went? "Today you will be with me in paradise." What do you think "paradise" is?

The "Tree of Life" is a representation of Christ. He is for the "healing of the nations".

But sin for the believer has been dealt with (Hebrews 9:26).

Do the people in the Lake of Fire somehow get out of the Lake of Fire?

My position on the new heavens and earth is in agreement with the following:

Yet note these people you quote are talking about the destruction of the Old Testament system.

Now did these men understand that the cosmos would be recreated. I assume they understood that; yet according to what you quote, you portray a position that they don't.

The physical literal world has not been. I agree. However, the old covenant system and its temple were in 66-70ad.

And neither I nor @BABerean2 (or others who've posted here) would disagree that Judaism saw it's final destruction in 70 AD. We only contest with you that the destruction of Jerusalem had anything to do with the destruction of the cosmos.

All men are appointed to die once and then face judgment after that.

Which if you look at what happened at the atonement and those who ascended to heaven when the "lamb as was slain" opened the seals; after "the great tribulation" you would understand there was a change in what happened with the dead post Christ's death.

Prior to Jesus dying; everyone was contained in hades (or Sheol) in one form or another. Once the atonement was completed; those who were atoned for ascended to "paradise" (I.E. the presence of the Father proceeded by the lamb who opened the seals.)

Post Jesus's death; "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The believer ascends to heaven.

What happens to the unbeliever who dies? (Answer - they go to Sheol / Hades to await the final judgement.) They know at the point they die that they will be judged based on where they end up. This is why "it is appointed unto man once to die and AFTER this the judgement."

Nope, we still sin.

Well, I'm glad that you don't think you are sinless.

Yes, slaves were taken.

Yet you neglect to acknowledge what happened to those slaves. (They died either in the arenas, or they starved to death.)

So no. "No flesh was saved" from the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus warned that this would happen; and it did!

Titus also sent a great number into the provinces, as a present to them, that they might be destroyed upon their theatres, by the sword and by the wild beasts; but those that were under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Now during the days wherein Fronto was distinguishing these men, there perished, for want of food, eleven thousand; some of whom did not taste any food, through the hatred their guards bore to them; and others would not take in any when it was given them. The multitude also was so very great, that they were in want even of corn for their sustenance.

The resurrection is physical/material = from natural body to spiritual body (like the angels). So No, I am not a docetae.

What is a "spiritual body"? You claim that it is an existence like an angel; yet an integral part of human existence is a material one. Jesus would not have been incarnated if there was no material resurrection. Angels don't have a carbon based molecular form as the rest of those who possess the "breath of life" do. God was not incarnated in the form of an angel. (Hebrews 2:16) He was incarnated as carbon based molecular human being.

If you fail to recognize there is a difference between a human being bodily resurrected in a glorified state and an angel; you missed the whole point of the incarnation and the resurrection.

THAT would be a Docetae!

Now what do these verses mean that you quoted?

Mark 12:25. There's no reproduction in the New Earth. Marriage currently exists to propagate species because of death. Jesus explains this when he says "marriage is for the children of this world" (because death now reigns). Luke 20:34.

This is why Jesus never got married and produced children in the flesh.

Now let's take a look at the whole context of 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

This is what I just explained; that the material existence of humans and angels is not the same.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But the assumption that a human's "spiritual body" is the same as an angels "natural body" is a faulty assumption. Now what is a "spiritual body" as is applied to what Paul is talking about? He explains this by comparing the first Adam to the last Adam.

Christ was different in one aspect of His existence in that besides a human nature; He also had a Divine nature. The form of the first Adam he took on though was materially the same as the rest of us.

So what was different about how God made some men "spiritual bodies"? That is answered in the next verse.


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The "spiritual body" as is described here is that which is quickened unto salvation; which commences with the regeneration of the person's "spiritual essence" by the Spirit of God. That is the changing of the "natural body" to the "spiritual body"; as the only outcome for Adam was the fall.

Adam's transgression was inevitable because he was not made an eternal entity. In order to have never fallen; Adam would have had to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal, and from everlasting to everlasting. Because Adam was none of these; the only thing he was capable of doing by nature was (eventually) to transgress. This is why Adam is described here as the "natural man".


47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And here is the reason the cosmos HAS to be recreated.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The flesh is raised to glory in like manner as the natural was raised to spiritual life. Note Paul states "We shall be changed"; not "we shall be made a spiritual flesh". The "spiritual man" has already been transformed. That is the first manifestation of redemption.

Where only those who have washed their robes can enter the New Jerusalem, while the sinners are outside of the city and cannot enter.

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Which again gets back to the reality that the New Jerusalem exists before the destruction of the current cosmos. There's no need to "wash your robe" after you die. At the point you leave this world; you are either redeemed or you're not. There is no post death "purgatory" to clean you of your sin. Christ either paid all of it; or He paid none of it.

Where yes, unrepentant sinners have have their portion in the 2nd death.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

And again, I ask you: Do the unregenerate ever get out of the Lake of Fire?
 
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The Righterzpen

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I disagree. After the resurrection, Jesus specifically told mary he had not yet ascended to the Father. So I believe this occurred AFTER Jesus' resurrection at the ascension into glory.

John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

And here is where you miss that the flesh is an integral part of the whole human existence. Jesus in the flesh (as a whole individual) hadn't ascended to the Father yet.

Now as for the rest of the verse "I am ascending to my Father..... " That is actually perfect active indicative tense. He's standing there talking to her yet he's "ascending to the Father"?

And note later on that people do touch him (including Mary and other women). So did he somehow "ascend" between running into Mary and the road to Emmas? We know from Scripture that the event known as "the ascension" doesn't happen until 40 days later.

I believe the 5th seal is symbolic for persecution and martyrdom. I don't necessarily agree that this is all in regards to the great tribulation, as Jesus reports that the saints would be persecuted and put to death prior to the great tribulation.

The passage itself explains to you what it means. Those martyred for the testimony of God. That would have included anyone martyred for that reason, regardless of what point in time they lived.

We know this happens prior to the destruction of the cosmos because the passage speaks of "souls under the alter". This is the same concept of "sewn natural" / "raised spiritual".

The flood is a representation of this as it states "8 souls" are in the ark. Now obviously we know Noah and his family were not "just souls" in this ark. This jives with what Paul says about the "natural" and the "spiritual".

I disagree these parabolic/symbolic/apocalyptic events are in regards to the literal destruction of the world.

The 6th seal parallels Jesus's olivet discourse, with the signs in the sky. Considering Jesus stated "this generation" will not pass away until all things have happened in the olivet discourse, we can know that 6th seal is fulfilled.

Yet the only "signs in the heavens" related to the sun, moon and stars were seen at the time of the crucifixion and not the destruction of Jerusalem. Scripture says nothing about this phenomena related to Jerusalem's destruction.

Notice Isaiah uses the same language for the destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Therefore, I interpret the olivet discourse language the same way.

Isaiah 13:9-10,13 Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—
to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place

Yet the destruction of Jerusalem didn't destroy the earth, nor did it destroy sinners. The Roman army were the ones still "left standing"; unless you want to claim they were not sinners?

It's still on you to prove where "Day of the Lord" is related to the destruction of Jerusalem and not the destruction of the cosmos.

I disagree these parabolic/symbolic/apocalyptic events are in regards to the literal destruction of the world.

You can disagree with Scripture all you want. I can't make you see what's plainly there. The heavens did not "roll up as a scroll" and "every mountain moved from its place" when Jerusalem was destroyed.

You don't believe there will be a recreated heavens and earth. You have a theological problem. If you won't see your error. I can't make you see it.

Tell me plainly; do you actually believe the earth as it stand today is eternal? You have been very evasive about that question; yet insisting other's answer your questions. And when they do answer your questions; you still claim that they haven't.

In addition, revelation's 6th seal quotes from hosea. Jesus quotes the exact same passage in hosea as coming to pass with the destruction of Jerusalem, specifically those weeping in front of him. Therefore, I would argue this passage is relevant to the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 6:15-17 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Luke 23:27-30 great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’c

And I've already explained these passages to you.

What you can't see of what the souls of the deceased currently understand concerning their state before God; I can't make you see. If you don't understand that the dead; (whom you can't see) full-well know they are judged; and knew that at the point Christ died and took the elect to heaven with Him. I can't help you. These things are spiritually discerned and I've done more than an adequate job of explaining it in clear terms. If you refuse to hear Scripture; that's not my problem.

Correct, the heavens and earth being spoken of is the old covenant system, which is in agreement with:

Now you're just being dishonest in twisting what other people say. Which is also what I believe you are doing with these historical figures. It's quite clear that you did this with what Josephus has said.

But your not providing any scripture to support you interpreting it this way. What scripture from the gospel and epistles teaches this?

LOL - I quoted you Scripture.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I’ve answered 2 of your questions now, without you answering any of mine. So I’ll ask again:

Do nations need healing outside of the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and earth?

No, they don't. They have already received the recompense for their sin. No one cast into the Lake of Fire gets out. There is no redemption outside of being atoned for by Christ.

Of what ever healing "nations" received by Christ's atoning work; happened prior to the destruction of the cosmos. It does not happen in the New Heavens and New Earth. The New Jerusalem exists prior to the destruction of this current cosmos. It is currently where the deceased saints are and will come down to the new earth once the cosmos is recreated.
 
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BABerean2

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of course.

I’ve answered 2 of your questions now, without you answering any of mine. So I’ll ask again:

Do nations need healing outside of the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and earth?


The answers are found in Revelation 21.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

.
 
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claninja

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Yet the New Jerusalem exists before the destruction of the current cosmos.

Absolutely agree.

hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Where do you think the thief went? "Today you will be with me in paradise." What do you think "paradise" is?

The thief didn't go anywhere except to the grave (sheol/hades). the thief died that day.

Jesus did not ascend to paradise that day, as evidenced by His words to Mary

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Christ was in the grave (hades) after his death, but he was not abandoned to it because of the resurrection.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Jesus did not ascend until 40 days later

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Therefore, as I already stated, Jesus' words should be rendered "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

Paradise is the third heaven:

2 corinthians 12:2-3 know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

The "Tree of Life" is a representation of Christ. He is for the "healing of the nations".

Absolutely agree.

Do the people in the Lake of Fire somehow get out of the Lake of Fire?

Nope.


Yet note these people you quote are talking about the destruction of the Old Testament system.

Correct, which is what I am talking about as well, thus I stated I am in agreement with them.


"or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations"



Now did these men understand that the cosmos would be recreated. I assume they understood that; yet according to what you quote, you portray a position that they don't.

In agreement with the quotes, I believe the the symbolic, parabolic, and apocalyptic "earth and heaven shattering" language is talking about the destruction of the old covenant system, which is often referred to as the "time of the end" or "end of the age", and is in regards to 66-70ad.


The earth remains for an unknownable amount of time.

ecclesiasted 1:4 A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

God will show his love to many, many generations, more than we can know.
exodus 20:6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Therefore, I agree that the physical cosmos can end someday, but that timing is a secret unto God.

Dueteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.


And neither I nor @BABerean2 (or others who've posted here) would disagree that Judaism saw it's final destruction in 70 AD. We only contest with you that the destruction of Jerusalem had anything to do with the destruction of the cosmos.

I never stated that 70ad was the destruction of the literal cosmos, so it's not me your contesting with.

Again, I believe the figurative, parabolic, and apocalyptic "earth and heaven shaking" language is in reference to the destruction of the old covenant system, not the literal destruction of the cosmos.


Which if you look at what happened at the atonement and those who ascended to heaven when the "lamb as was slain" opened the seals; after "the great tribulation" you would understand there was a change in what happened with the dead post Christ's death.

What scripture specifically calls Jesus' death on the cross the great tribulation?

Prior to Jesus dying; everyone was contained in hades (or Sheol) in one form or another. Once the atonement was completed; those who were atoned for ascended to "paradise" (I.E. the presence of the Father proceeded by the lamb who opened the seals.)

Prior to Jesus' death everyone was in the grave (sheol/hades), i agree

I disagree that the transition from the grave (sheol/hades) to heaven for believer occurred after Jesus' death, and would argue it occurred after 66-70ad.

Post Jesus's death; "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The believer ascends to heaven.

I disagree with your interpretation of 2 corinthians 5:8. The context of when our earthly home is destroyed, then we have a heavenly house, is in regards to inheritance at the resurrection, and not the soul going to heaven upon death.

2 corinthians 5:1-5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,e to the praise of his glory.

Considering Paul believed he was living in the end of the ages and that the resurrection was "about to be", then it's no suprise that for Paul, when his earthly home was destroyed, he would have a heavenly house not made by hands. He was not going to go to heaven "naked", but further clothed.

1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Yet you neglect to acknowledge what happened to those slaves. (They died either in the arenas, or they starved to death.)

Or as Josephus states: put to work in Egyptian Mines.

"but of the young men he chose out the tallest and most beautiful, and reserved them for the triumph; and as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines."

So no. "No flesh was saved" from the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus warned that this would happen; and it did!

By your admission, those that were sold into slavery after Jerusalem's destruction didn't die in the destruction of Jerusalem.

THAT would be a Docetae!

Nope. A docetae believes that when Jesus was on earth he did not have a real flesh or blood body, but a phantom body. I do not believe that. Therefore, your assertion is incorrect.

What is a "spiritual body"? You claim that it is an existence like an angel; yet an integral part of human existence is a material one. Jesus would not have been incarnated if there was no material resurrection. Angels don't have a carbon based molecular form as the rest of those who possess the "breath of life" do. God was not incarnated in the form of an angel. (Hebrews 2:16) He was incarnated as carbon based molecular human being.

All I know is that the resurrected body is 1.) not a natural body as we have now and 2.) it is a spiritual body as Paul states.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Whatever we will be like, it will be like Jesus in his glorified state:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

It will be a heavenly body, "like" the angels, NOT the "same" as an angel.



If you fail to recognize there is a difference between a human being bodily resurrected in a glorified state and an angel; you missed the whole point of the incarnation and the resurrection.

From this statement, it's obvious that you don't actually know my position. So instead of creating strawman arguments, maybe ask or inquire before making untrue statements.

I never stated the resurreted body is the "same" as the heavenly body of the angel.

Mark 12:25. There's no reproduction in the New Earth. Marriage currently exists to propagate species because of death. Jesus explains this when he says "marriage is for the children of this world" (because death now reigns). Luke 20:34.

I agree that Jesus' point was that marriage is for those on earth not for those who partake in the resurrection. Marriage is an earthly symbol of Christ and the church (galatians 5), and therefore the shadow become reality at the resurrection. I never stated otherwise.


This is what I just explained; that the material existence of humans and angels is not the same.

I never stated otherwise. Not sure why you needed to explain that.

But the assumption that a human's "spiritual body" is the same as an angels "natural body" is a faulty assumption. Now what is a "spiritual body" as is applied to what Paul is talking about? He explains this by comparing the first Adam to the last Adam.

Never stated the spiritual resurrected body of man was the "same" as an angel. I only stated it was "like". Please avoid strawman arguments.

The "spiritual body" as is described here is that which is quickened unto salvation; which commences with the regeneration of the person's "spiritual essence" by the Spirit of God. That is the changing of the "natural body" to the "spiritual body"; as the only outcome for Adam was the fall.

I disagree with your interpretation that it is in regards to being born again. The context is in regards to the type of body when the dead are raised.

1 corinthians 15:35-36 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

And again, I ask you: Do the unregenerate ever get out of the Lake of Fire?

Nope
 
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claninja

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Now as for the rest of the verse "I am ascending to my Father..... " That is actually perfect active indicative tense. He's standing there talking to her yet he's "ascending to the Father"?

The perfect tense indicates a completed action in the past. However, in this passage it's modified by the adjective "Not Yet". Therefore, based on grammar, it was not yet completed.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

"I am ascending" is present tense. However, Jesus was not presently rising to heaven in front of mary, and wouldn't for 40 more days. Therefore, I would argue, it's in the same use as Jesus' evidence of God's present tense use of "I am" in regards to the future resurrection.

Matthew 22:31-32 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus was not abandoned to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption because of the resurrection.

There is no gospel or epistolic teaching that Jesus's soul went to heaven and then came back down into his resurrected body.


Acts 2:31-32 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

And note later on that people do touch him (including Mary and other women). So did he somehow "ascend" between running into Mary and the road to Emmas? We know from Scripture that the event known as "the ascension" doesn't happen until 40 days later.

It wasn't simply Mary touching Christ, it was her "clinging" to him. Obviously, Jesus' reason for Mary not clinging to him, is much different than Him allowing thomas to touch his wounds.

The passage itself explains to you what it means. Those martyred for the testimony of God. That would have included anyone martyred for that reason, regardless of what point in time they lived.

Right, that's what I just said. So then we are in agreement

We know this happens prior to the destruction of the cosmos because the passage speaks of "souls under the alter". This is the same concept of "sewn natural" / "raised spiritual".

Do you believe the souls of those that die reside under a literal alter? Or do you believe that this symbolic language?

I interpret the martyred souls crying out for vengeance in the same capacity that abel's blood cried out all the way back in genesis.


Genesis 4:10 And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.

Revelation 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

I try keep my understanding of revelation simplistic. I believe this is simply in regards to the persecution of God's people, who he will avenge.


And who is responsible for all the righteous blood shed? According to Jesus, 1st century Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

It is the destruction of Jerusalem that fulfills the days of vengeance.

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.


The flood is a representation of this as it states "8 souls" are in the ark. Now obviously we know Noah and his family were not "just souls" in this ark. This jives with what Paul says about the "natural" and the "spiritual".

Sorry, you're kind of losing me here. According to your interpretation, The souls under the alter are born again Christians in the flesh on earth still or are the they souls of those that have been killed?


Yet the only "signs in the heavens" related to the sun, moon and stars were seen at the time of the crucifixion and not the destruction of Jerusalem. Scripture says nothing about this phenomena related to Jerusalem's destruction.

"signs" in the heavens were in fact seen during the Jewish roman war. There multiple eclipses and a sword shaped comet.


Yet the destruction of Jerusalem didn't destroy the earth, nor did it destroy sinners. The Roman army were the ones still "left standing"; unless you want to claim they were not sinners?

I never stated the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed the earth. However, it certainly did destroy the sinners who were charged with all the righteous blood shed since the foundation of the world.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Scripture says nothing about this phenomena related to Jerusalem's destruction.

Not true, the olivet discourse, which is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the signs leading up it mention signs in the sky.


You can disagree with Scripture all you want. I can't make you see what's plainly there. The heavens did not "roll up as a scroll" and "every mountain moved from its place" when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Classic false premise. I don't disagree with scripture. I disagree with how YOU interpret it, just as you disagree with how I interpret it.

Again I believe the symbolic and parabolic language of the heavens and earth being removed is in regards to the removal of the old covenant system.

You don't believe there will be a recreated heavens and earth. You have a theological problem. If you won't see your error. I can't make you see it.

And I can't help you understand the parabolic and symbolic language pointing to spiritual truths if you don't want to see it.


Tell me plainly; do you actually believe the earth as it stand today is eternal? You have been very evasive about that question; yet insisting other's answer your questions.

In case I missed it, did you ask me previously about the earth being eternal for me to be evasive?

See post #358 about my position on how long the earth will last.

Others insist I answer their questions, to which I do. and as evidenced by me having to ask BAB multiple times, others often don't respond to the questions I ask.


And when they do answer your questions; you still claim that they haven't.

Right, i had to ask BAB multiple times to answer my question. to which he finally responsed in post #357, with a non answer. I have no idea what he believes in regards to my question, based on his response in post #357

And I've already explained these passages to you.

What you can't see of what the souls of the deceased currently understand concerning their state before God; I can't make you see. If you don't understand that the dead; (whom you can't see) full-well know they are judged; and knew that at the point Christ died and took the elect to heaven with Him. I can't help you. These things are spiritually discerned and I've done more than an adequate job of explaining it in clear terms. If you refuse to hear Scripture; that's not my problem.



This is confusing. You quoted my passages about both Jesus and revelation 6 quoting hosea, but did not address it, then go on to state you already explained these passages. Unless I missed it, You did not already explain Luke 23 and revelation 6 use of Hosea. Should I assume you are talking about different passages and not Luke 23 and revelation 6's use of hosea.

By using scripture to interpret scripture, we can clearly see that the 6th seal is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, as Jesus quotes the exact same passage in hosea as being fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem.


What scripture teaches that Christ took the elect with him to heaven?

You've explained your interpretations of passages, to which I disagreed with and offered rebuttals. Please don't conflate me disagreeing with YOUR interpretation as me refusing to hear the scriptures, and I won't do that to you.

Do you believe the parable of the net is about literal fish being caught in a net or a greater spiritual truth? If you believe fish, then at least your consistent with your interpretation of parabolic and symbolic language. But if it is the latter, then why are interpreting the parabolic language of Isaiah 66-65 and revelation in a literal way?



Now you're just being dishonest in twisting what other people say. Which is also what I believe you are doing with these historical figures.

Please provide specific example of how I am being dishonest or twisting their words, otherwise we can all see your just making false accusations.

My position as a partial preterist: the symbolic/apocalyptic language used to the describe the shaking and removal of heavens and earth is parabolic for the removal of the old covenant system as the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, and not the end of the physical cosmos.


This is in agreement with Eusebius:
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'

This is in agreement with Charles Spurgeon

"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

This is in agreement with Jonathan Edwards

The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation.



This is in agreement with Jonathan Ownes

I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state [A]nd then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, – the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”

As partial preterist I agree that this is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, and NOT to the end of the cosmos and last and final judgment. I have not twisted their words, I have simply copied and pasted their words and stated I agree with them.

Try to avoid false accusation, especially if your not going to give an example.



LOL - I quoted you Scripture.

Sure, then in case I missed it, can please provide the gospel or epistolic passage that specifically states the cross is when the physical cosmos began to be destroyed and is part of the great tribulation.
 
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claninja

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No, they don't. They have already received the recompense for their sin. No one cast into the Lake of Fire gets out. There is no redemption outside of being atoned for by Christ.

Of what ever healing "nations" received by Christ's atoning work; happened prior to the destruction of the cosmos. It does not happen in the New Heavens and New Earth. The New Jerusalem exists prior to the destruction of this current cosmos. It is currently where the deceased saints are and will come down to the new earth once the cosmos is recreated.

I never stated anyone gets our of the 2nd death or that anyone can be atoned for after the 2nd death. I am not a universalist.

And I agreed that the new Jerusalem exists prior to the destruction of the cosmos AND prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

1.) the new Jerusalem is the church, the body of Christ under the new covenant.

Paul refers to the Jerusalem from above as a covenant.

Galatians 4:24-26 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

The New Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the dwelling place of God.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God.c

Ephesians 2:21-22 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The New Jerusalem and the body of Christ are built on the foundation of the apostles.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:19-20 o then you are no longer strangers and aliens,d but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

The New Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ

Revelation 21:9-10 hen came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

2.) The body of Christ under the new coenant, which is the new Jerusalem, is the spiritual truth of the parabolic temple in Ezekiel


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Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them
Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city.

Ezekiel 47:1-2 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar

Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing

Ezekiel 47:12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”

Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple are where God's throne is
Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

Both the New Jerusalem and the Jerusalem of the Ezekiel temple have 12 gates (3 on each side) with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Revelation 21:12-13 The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west.


3.) This ezekiel temple, which is the New Jerusalem, which is the body of Christ under the new covenant is where God dwells with his people forever, whether they are on earth or in heaven, for it is the place of his feet (earth) and his throne (heaven)

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, 7and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool;
what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

4.) the New Jerusalem is in the betrothal phase prior to 66-70ad.

2 corinthians 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ

5.) The new Jerusalem was consummated at 66-70ad, otherwise the wedding feast could not have been ready, according to ancient Jewish weddings, post the destruction of the Jersualem. Since the destruction of the harlot (1st century Jerusalem), blessed are those that are invited to the wedding feast.

Matthew 23:7-9 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’

Revelation 19:2, 7-9 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

And the angel saida to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

6.) Through Christ and from His body, comes the healing to the nations, on a reconciled creation.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

7.) those who remain unrepentant sinners cannot enter this kingdom. They are without.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

It is currently where the deceased saints are and will come down to the new earth once the cosmos is recreated.

This raises a couple questions:

Do you believe the New Jerusalem is a literal cubed structure that comes down out of heaven and newly created earth and universe?

Are the souls under the alter in the New Jerusalem currently, cyring out for vengeance, waiting for the new Jerusalem to descend so that they can have resurrected bodies?
 
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