So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

BobRyan said:

Thanks for sharing that.

But you are bringing in a lot of texts saying that the end time info "matters" - yet not showing even one end-time scenario on this board where ... it matters.

Is it your claim that if people don't guess the correct scenario then " that failed guess" alone will cause them to be lost -- for that reason alone? a failed guess?

Click to expand...

Some will be caught napping. Would that be those with the wrong eschatology theology? Who are the foolish virgins?

keras said:

But they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God in Judgement. Rev 20:11-15
If they treated the Prophetic Word as of no value or consequence to them, as many do today, then God may ask them: Why did you take no notice of the over 1/4 of My Word to you? No matter that what will happen; didn't in your lifetime, you should have been prepared for it.
As we all should be prepared and spiritually ready for dramatic events, that we can now see how and why they will all take place.

Click to expand...

I see it differently to you. I do not think that Christians undergo a judgement.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

BobRyan said:

In all of scripture - God's warnings, rightly understood, were given to spare people some dire consequence. So then this is about people ignoring that warning and then experiencing the event being warned about, where you need the information God gives to come out on the right side of survival/fail.

And of course his end-times warnings in the Bible are "off the charts" loud and in your face drastic. (See Rev 13 for example)

=======================
Here is the BIG question

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels... (but not Matt 24 or any section dealing with end times) .. I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible from God Himself - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Test case example ------------------------------------------

Someone in Noah's day - chooses to serve God, not worship any false God's - say prayers and be positive ... and also ignore everything related to Noah and his message staying right where he is 1200 miles from Noah. He is saying "I have never seen it rain - and I don't know who did or did not speak to Noah... too hard for me to figure out so I am going to stay right here and be good".

That person would most certainly be "at risk" if he considered drowning in a world-wide-flood along with all his family and friends -- a negative thing.

Noah's message warned of a harsh consequence - but if a person decided that they don't really mind suffering that harsh consequence well then they get what they expect. The whole point of the warning was to avoid the harsh consequence.

So what about today? In today's world do all these warnings have any downside at all for the one choosing to ignore them? As long as that person is born-again and reads those 4 gospels (sans the sections warning about end times?)

(Some might point out that if you die before the event happens that you are being warned about even happens -- then it STILL does not matter how much you knew about the warning. That scenario is "a given" - I don't think anyone debates against it.)

Click to expand...

The risk is when there is extreme persecution such as the great tribulations that the people who ignored prophecy sermons and books won't be prepared to endure and may renounce their faith feeling that it's not true because they're suffering, the same thing can happen to someone who has a pretrib rapture position if they are wrong about the rapture timing. If they're not conditioned to endure because they have put all faith in escape.. they may renounce their faith, and nothing could be worse than that.

In the parable of the sower Jesus talks about those people, Matthew 13:5-6. These people do not have good roots. They may have shallow faith, that is cast aside when tribulation hits them.

There are 2 reasons why we are given prophetic scripture. #1, as Jesus put it in John 16:1, so that persecution doesn't offend us, because we know to expect it. In fact if we're told about it ahead of time, and it happens, it actually strengthens our faith, because we know, Jesus told us this would happen to us, thousands of years ago. #2 to give us hope, because in the end, we win.

BobRyan said:

Is it your claim that if people don't guess the correct scenario then " that failed guess" alone will cause them to be lost -- for that reason alone? a failed guess?

Click to expand...

Nobody needs to guess what the Lord has planned for our future. It is all set out in the Bible. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-2
It is when people choose to believe fables and fairy tales, that the problem arises. They will be very disappointed when what they were taught and firmly believe, doesn't happen. They may even renounce God, but even if they do keep their faith, they won't be prepared for all that must take place.

klutedavid said:

I see it differently to you. I do not think that Christians undergo a judgement.

Click to expand...

This is right, as all the Judgements from the Sixth Seal to Armageddon - at the Return, are against the ungodly peoples. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 13:8
The faithful Christians are placed in safety during the GT. Revelation 12:14
But everyone who has ever lived, will stand before God at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

keras said:

Nobody needs to guess what the Lord has planned for our future. It is all set out in the Bible. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-2
It is when people choose to believe fables and fairy tales, that the problem arises. They will be very disappointed when what they were taught and firmly believe, doesn't happen. They may even renounce God, but even if they do keep their faith, they won't be prepared for all that must take place.

This is right, as all the Judgements from the Sixth Seal to Armageddon - at the Return, are against the ungodly peoples. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 13:8
The faithful Christians are placed in safety during the GT. Revelation 12:14
But everyone who has ever lived, will stand before God at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Click to expand...

Are you implying that Christians can be judged and sent into damnation?

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

BobRyan said:

In all of scripture - God's warnings, rightly understood, were given to spare people some dire consequence. So then this is about people ignoring that warning and then experiencing the event being warned about, where you need the information God gives to come out on the right side of survival/fail.

And of course his end-times warnings in the Bible are "off the charts" loud and in your face drastic. (See Rev 13 for example)

=======================
Here is the BIG question

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels... (but not Matt 24 or any section dealing with end times) .. I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible from God Himself - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Test case example ------------------------------------------

Someone in Noah's day - chooses to serve God, not worship any false God's - say prayers and be positive ... and also ignore everything related to Noah and his message staying right where he is 1200 miles from Noah. He is saying "I have never seen it rain - and I don't know who did or did not speak to Noah... too hard for me to figure out so I am going to stay right here and be good".

That person would most certainly be "at risk" if he considered drowning in a world-wide-flood along with all his family and friends -- a negative thing.

Noah's message warned of a harsh consequence - but if a person decided that they don't really mind suffering that harsh consequence well then they get what they expect. The whole point of the warning was to avoid the harsh consequence.

So what about today? In today's world do all these warnings have any downside at all for the one choosing to ignore them? As long as that person is born-again and reads those 4 gospels (sans the sections warning about end times?)

(Some might point out that if you die before the event happens that you are being warned about even happens -- then it STILL does not matter how much you knew about the warning. That scenario is "a given" - I don't think anyone debates against it.)

Click to expand...

What I have found is that there is a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality. There are a couple of stories I seem to recall reading from “The Historical Quarterly” if I’m not mistaken. In the first story, a professor and his wife were making an early evening stroll around the campus when an apparition appeared to both of them. The professor told his wife not to tell him what she saw so as not to taint the data. They both saw a woman sitting in a nice chair with two female attendants combing her hair and I don’t recall if both attendants were combing her hair. The setting was reminiscent of something that might have happened in the 19th century. The other story was about a soldier in Vietnam who was in a firefight, he looked up and saw a battle going on in the spiritual realm as I understood it.

A fair portion of Mathew 24 deals with Spiritual Truths. The born again experience is also described. When Christ makes captivity captive and one learns The Fear of The Lord, then understanding comes. Until that happens, reading The Word and working towards obedience is all anyone can do.

Rom.8

1. 
   [1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

klutedavid said:

Are you implying that Christians can be judged and sent into damnation?

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Click to expand...

The great tribulations (the first 5 seals) are not judgements from God they are persecution performed by men, namely the Antichrist and those who worship him.

I feel that I should clarify this and explain, and use scripture, so bear with me.

In Matthew 24, when Jesus tells of the signs of his coming, He is the one who gives us the term "great tribulation". It's one of the 3 times in the bible that "great tribulation" is used, although admittedly the period gets referred to by other names like Jacob's Trouble. But we will focus on what Jesus said "the great tribulations" are.

When many people think of the great tribulations they think of 7 years of tribulation, because of Daniel's 70th week, the week being 7 years long prophetically. However, to describe the entire 70th week as the great tribulations that Jesus spoke of is in error, and even what defines what "tribulations" are is often misinterpreted.

Tribulations are not "bad things that happen" but rather specifically they are persecution. Jesus defines this in Matthew 13:21, it's the first time the word tribulation is used in the new testament, the first time the word tribulation is used by Jesus, so He defines it.

So in Matthew 24:21 what Jesus is referring to is that there will be religious persecution unlike anything the word has ever experienced before, and will never experience again. For context, worse than early Christians being fed to lions, worse than the Spanish inquisition, worse than the persecution of "heretics" being burned at the stake, worse than all the pogroms, and worse than the Holocaust performed by the 3rd Reich, because those are things we have seen before, and they were not yet the great tribulations. The great tribulations are persecution so bad they are to the point where unless Jesus cut them short, every saved person would be killed, Matthew 24:22.

Matthew 24 parallels a lot of Revelation 6, you have false messiahs, wars, famine, and pestilences which Jesus refers to as the beginning of sorrows, and are in the same order as the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6. Then Jesus starts talking about the persecution, being delivered to be killed, this, and the abomination of desolation, sound like the 5th seal in Revelation 6.

Then where Jesus describes the sun and moon darkening is exactly like the events of the 6th seal in Revelation 6.

So you see, Jesus was explaining the 6 seals that are the signs of His coming, he gave an answer to His disciples that was relevant. At that coming the elect are gathered and caught up to be with Him (Matthew 24:29-31).

Note what are NOT given as signs of His coming, and are NOT described as tribulations by Jesus.
The Trumpet Judgements
The Bowl/Vial Judgements
Why?
Because He comes for His saints before those.

The trumpets and vials are judgements of God, and from the language of Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 and 7, the saints are NOT there to be judged by them.
We endure tribulation, but we are spared the wrath of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Note that Paul does not say we are spared persecution from the wicked men of this world.

klutedavid said:

Are you implying that Christians can be judged and sent into damnation?

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Click to expand...

What was Jesus implying when He said: Many will say: I cast out demons in Your name.....I will say: I never knew you.

But yes; Those who do believe in Him, do have the Promise of Eternal life. John 3:16
It is just that we must maintain our faith and keep the Commandments, because our names can be erased from the Book of Life. Psalms 69:28, Revelation 3:5

I went back and read your OP because I guess I didn't properly understand it.

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

...

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk?

Click to expand...

Your questions are interesting because they are effectively what almost every Christian is actually doing. Even those who study prophecy are doing the same thing to prepare for the return of Jesus - nothing.

Noah's Ark is sitting there. The ramp has come down. The animals are loading.

Do you think you should walk up the ramp, I say?

Oh no. I only need to read my Bible is the response.

Good luck with that, I say.

What happens if one ignores all the end-time stuff?

I said in my earlier response to you:
1. You would basically die an early death due to war, or;
2. You might join Islam due to trickery.

I forgot to mention that if you don't join Islam then you will be killed. The parable of the foolish virgins suggests that 50% of Christians get in trouble. Under my scenario that means they will join Islam. They couldn't recognize a fake Jesus.

For some reason, you don't feel those items represent increased risk.

keras said:

What was Jesus implying when He said: Many will say: I cast out demons in Your name.....I will say: I never knew you.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between believing and knowing Jesus, and merely using the name of Jesus as an end in itself.

But yes; Those who do believe in Him, do have the Promise of Eternal life. John 3:16
It is just that we must maintain our faith and keep the Commandments, because our names can be erased from the Book of Life. Psalms 69:28, Revelation 3:5

Click to expand...

Well your behavior would need to be really bad, to end up getting erased from the book of life. Jesus came to set us free from the law of sin and death.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Matt5 said:

I went back and read your OP because I guess I didn't properly understand it.

Click to expand...

When you understand the OP then you can explain it to me.

klutedavid said:

but he who does not obey the Son will not see life

Click to expand...

WARNINGS FROM GOD
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

klutedavid said:

He who believes in the Son has eternal life

Click to expand...

Does it matter what you believe?

BobRyan said:

In the case of the OP scenario: the person doing that is very happy to tell everyone about the 4 gospels and the book of Psalms - and tell them they are free to read the rest of the Bible if they wish - but that they really need to accept Christ as Savior just as the person in the OP has done.

Click to expand...

Then the message is incomplete. These things are a warning, do you not think it should be important that the lost hear the warning?

Original Happy Camper said:

WARNINGS FROM GOD
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



Does it matter what you believe?

Click to expand...

Yes, it does matter.

Someone who believes in Jesus is called a Christian.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

BobRyan said:

In all of scripture - God's warnings, rightly understood, were given to spare people some dire consequence. So then this is about people ignoring that warning and then experiencing the event being warned about, where you need the information God gives to come out on the right side of survival/fail.

And of course his end-times warnings in the Bible are "off the charts" loud and in your face drastic. (See Rev 13 for example)

=======================
Here is the BIG question

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels... (but not Matt 24 or any section dealing with end times) .. I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible from God Himself - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Test case example ------------------------------------------

Someone in Noah's day - chooses to serve God, not worship any false God's - say prayers and be positive ... and also ignore everything related to Noah and his message staying right where he is 1200 miles from Noah. He is saying "I have never seen it rain - and I don't know who did or did not speak to Noah... too hard for me to figure out so I am going to stay right here and be good".

That person would most certainly be "at risk" if he considered drowning in a world-wide-flood along with all his family and friends -- a negative thing.

Noah's message warned of a harsh consequence - but if a person decided that they don't really mind suffering that harsh consequence well then they get what they expect. The whole point of the warning was to avoid the harsh consequence.

So what about today? In today's world do all these warnings have any downside at all for the one choosing to ignore them? As long as that person is born-again and reads those 4 gospels (sans the sections warning about end times?)

(Some might point out that if you die before the event happens that you are being warned about even happens -- then it STILL does not matter how much you knew about the warning. That scenario is "a given" - I don't think anyone debates against it.)

Click to expand...

Yes it does matter. Living in expectation of Christs return encourages accountability and God focus to our lives here and now. Indifference leads to apathy.

Good example is fall of Jerusalem which Jesus prophesised. Had the church ignored the signs and the angel telling them to move to Pella they would have been destroyed by Romans and early church growth dampened