So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

[BobRyan]

The great tribulations (the first 5 seals) are not judgements from God they are persecution performed by men, namely the Antichrist and those who worship him.

I feel that I should clarify this and explain, and use scripture, so bear with me.

In Matthew 24, when Jesus tells of the signs of his coming, He is the one who gives us the term "great tribulation". It's one of the 3 times in the bible that "great tribulation" is used, although admittedly the period gets referred to by other names like Jacob's Trouble. But we will focus on what Jesus said "the great tribulations" are.

When many people think of the great tribulations they think of 7 years of tribulation, because of Daniel's 70th week, the week being 7 years long prophetically. However, to describe the entire 70th week as the great tribulations that Jesus spoke of is in error, and even what defines what "tribulations" are is often misinterpreted.

Tribulations are not "bad things that happen" but rather specifically they are persecution. Jesus defines this in Matthew 13:21, it's the first time the word tribulation is used in the new testament, the first time the word tribulation is used by Jesus, so He defines it.

So in Matthew 24:21 what Jesus is referring to is that there will be religious persecution unlike anything the word has ever experienced before, and will never experience again. For context, worse than early Christians being fed to lions, worse than the Spanish inquisition, worse than the persecution of "heretics" being burned at the stake, worse than all the pogroms, and worse than the Holocaust performed by the 3rd Reich, because those are things we have seen before, and they were not yet the great tribulations. The great tribulations are persecution so bad they are to the point where unless Jesus cut them short, every saved person would be killed, Matthew 24:22.

Matthew 24 parallels a lot of Revelation 6, you have false messiahs, wars, famine, and pestilences which Jesus refers to as the beginning of sorrows, and are in the same order as the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6. Then Jesus starts talking about the persecution, being delivered to be killed, this, and the abomination of desolation, sound like the 5th seal in Revelation 6.

Then where Jesus describes the sun and moon darkening is exactly like the events of the 6th seal in Revelation 6.

So you see, Jesus was explaining the 6 seals that are the signs of His coming, he gave an answer to His disciples that was relevant. At that coming the elect are gathered and caught up to be with Him (Matthew 24:29-31).

Note what are NOT given as signs of His coming, and are NOT described as tribulations by Jesus.
The Trumpet Judgements
The Bowl/Vial Judgements
Why?
Because He comes for His saints before those.

The trumpets and vials are judgements of God, and from the language of Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 and 7, the saints are NOT there to be judged by them.
We endure tribulation, but we are spared the wrath of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Note that Paul does not say we are spared persecution from the wicked men of this world.

Good points made there - but the person in the OP already suffers from people who oppose Christianity and can read in the gospels where Christ was opposed - so that person would expect that opposition "exists" and would already admit that he/she has no control over the fact that more opposition would or would not come in the future that they are not reading about.

So as long as the person is a born-again Christian - what future scenario do you propose where "not knowing about it" puts them at some sort of risk??

Because one thing is very clear - no knowing about the flood in Noah's day - then living to see that event happen... put them at great risk.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Yes, it does matter.

Someone who believes in Jesus is called a Christian.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Satan believes that Jesus is the Son of GOD

 

[BobRyan]

What I have found is that there is a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality. There are a couple of stories I seem to recall reading from “The Historical Quarterly” if I’m not mistaken. In the first story, a professor and his wife were making an early evening stroll around the campus when an apparition appeared to both of them. The professor told his wife not to tell him what she saw so as not to taint the data. They both saw a woman sitting in a nice chair with two female attendants combing her hair and I don’t recall if both attendants were combing her hair. The setting was reminiscent of something that might have happened in the 19th century. The other story was about a soldier in Vietnam who was in a firefight, he looked up and saw a battle going on in the spiritual realm as I understood it.

A fair portion of Mathew 24 deals with Spiritual Truths. The born again experience is also described. When Christ makes captivity captive and one learns The Fear of The Lord, then understanding comes. Until that happens, reading The Word and working towards obedience is all anyone can do.

Rom.8

1. 
   [1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

in the OP scenario - that born-again Christian carefully avoids Matt 24 and anything that speaks explicitly to end time events in God's Word. In your scenario above -- is there any risk to such a person for not thinking of it the way you do??

 

[BobRyan]

Are you implying that Christians can be judged and sent into damnation?
.

2 Cor 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 6:23 - the judgment for bad deeds defined.

 

[BobRyan]

I see it differently to you. I do not think that Christians undergo a judgement.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Judge not that you be not judged - is about condemnation
does not come into judgment - does not come into condemnation
He who believes in Christ is not judged -- is not condemned

But ALL must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and deeds both good AND bad are judged 2 Cor 5:10.

"Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - because their cases are judged and Matt 7 points out that they are found to be "good trees" that bear "good fruit". Romans 2 goes into a lot of detail as to how that judgment works.. as Paul says "according to my Gospel" Rom 2:16

 

[BobRyan]

Some will be caught napping. Would that be those with the wrong eschatology theology? Who are the foolish virgins?

The foolish virgins are the ones not paying attention to the warnings - because the warnings do matter. But nothing in the scenarios for end-times being discussed in the OP "matter" such that knowing or not knowing about those scenarios makes one iota of difference to the born-again Christian who ignores all that scripture - and just reads the gospels.

When someone picks up one of those end-time scenarios and then holds it up for review to see "if it matters" -- so far in this thread - the answer is always the same "it does not matter to the OP person who is already a born again Christian that refuses to read any part of God's word dealing with end times".

That result is more than a little - unexpected given how warnings vs ignoring-warnings work out in all the Bible examples that we have. So there's a red flag.

 

[BobRyan]

What was Jesus implying when He said: Many will say: I cast out demons in Your name.....I will say: I never knew you.

But yes; Those who do believe in Him, do have the Promise of Eternal life. John 3:16
It is just that we must maintain our faith and keep the Commandments, because our names can be erased from the Book of Life. Psalms 69:28, Revelation 3:5

True.

I have updated my prior response to you for more clarity - #61

 

[ZNP]

When you understand the OP then you can explain it to me.

The first question is based on a very common error in end time preaching. Many are so focused on the "when". Jesus told us that is not for us to know (specifically - we don't know the day or the hour, what we can know is the season, the proper time). The focus on trying to determine the day and the hour truly is pointless. But based on that effort the logical question is, "what good would it have been for all those who have already died in this age to have known the day and hour"? Truth is it wouldn't have helped them one iota which is also why Jesus said it is not for us to know that. We will live by every word of God, the words that are given to us concerning the end times are telling us how to live, how to take a stand for righteousness, how to worship the Lord in the face of persecution and how the Lord will judge us when we do appear before Him. Those words have helped believers throughout the entire age. This is why Paul says all scripture is profitable.

The second question is convoluted because it conflates Noah's time when there was no Bible, no covenant, simply a warning with today. The warning at Noah's time was not allegorical, a flood was coming and if you wanted to survive it you need to get on the boat. If you heard that warning and ignored it you died.

 

[BobRyan]

The first question is based on a very common error in end time preaching. Many are so focused on the "when". Jesus told us that is not for us to know (specifically - we don't know the day or the hour,..

The second question is convoluted because it conflates Noah's time when there was no Bible, no covenant, simply a warning with today. The warning at Noah's time was not allegorical, a flood was coming and if you wanted to survive it you need to get on the boat. If you heard that warning and ignored it you died.

1. The OP does not ask whether you should know "the day or the hour" -- it only asks about ignoring the Bible teaching/warning about the end times.. Not "ignoring the Bible statements telling you that Nov 20, 2020 is the date of the second coming" or any such thing. That is not even in the OP.

2. Noah lived at the time before the flood when people like Enoch were not only saved by grace through faith - but in fact went directly to heaven without dying. Noah is held up as a giant of the faith , an example to NT believers in Hebrews 11 - a man who was fully engaged in the gospel teaching of "righteousness by faith"

3. Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 says that Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Heb 4:2 says the "gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".
1 Peter 1 says that the OT Bible writers were informed via the "Spirit of Christ" about the "sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow".

what is more - Christ said that the real END-Times scenario is EXACTLY like the days of Noah and not knowing enough to "get in the boat" -- where most people do not take that action... they just keep doing things as they used to do them.

 

[JulieB67]

OR is this really life-and-death practical

It's life and death when it comes to your soul and the deception of Antichrist/Satan. That's the point I'm making. There's an apostasy coming up and if one isn't prepared, then they are in danger of falling into that.

Problem is .... people will think the anti-christ is Christ himself .... the deception is the anti christ is "christ

Yes, that's it exactly. Anti in the Greek means "instead of". He will be here instead of Christ pretending to be Christ. And people will believe.

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Yes! That's what we need to be prepared for. And it's God that sends the strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie.

If one ignores Matthew 24, you miss out on Christ's warning's about if someone says there is Christ or here is Christ, believe it not.

 

[JacksBratt]

In all of scripture - God's warnings, rightly understood, were given to spare people some dire consequence. So then this is about people ignoring that warning and then experiencing the event being warned about, where you need the information God gives to come out on the right side of survival/fail.

And of course his end-times warnings in the Bible are "off the charts" loud and in your face drastic. (See Rev 13 for example)

=======================
Here is the BIG question

If you look at the subforums and each of their titles for this area of the board - all the different end-times scenarios... then:

1. "What difference does it make?" - for the one ignoring all of it?

In other words "so what"?

Can you name any risk at all for the person who says
"I accept Christ as savior - I read only the 4 gospels... (but not Matt 24 or any section dealing with end times) .. I ignore everything in the Bible that talks about the last days... that's it"??

Do any of the end-time options so popular today - claim that such a person who is choosing to "ignore it all" - has even one iota of risk??

2. Second question: Can you name one single instance in scripture where a big crisis event was coming up - and lots of dire warnings about it in the Bible from God Himself - and YET - deliberately ignoring that warning results in "no risk at all" for the one doing it??

Test case example ------------------------------------------

Someone in Noah's day - chooses to serve God, not worship any false God's - say prayers and be positive ... and also ignore everything related to Noah and his message staying right where he is 1200 miles from Noah. He is saying "I have never seen it rain - and I don't know who did or did not speak to Noah... too hard for me to figure out so I am going to stay right here and be good".

That person would most certainly be "at risk" if he considered drowning in a world-wide-flood along with all his family and friends -- a negative thing.

Noah's message warned of a harsh consequence - but if a person decided that they don't really mind suffering that harsh consequence well then they get what they expect. The whole point of the warning was to avoid the harsh consequence.

So what about today? In today's world do all these warnings have any downside at all for the one choosing to ignore them? As long as that person is born-again and reads those 4 gospels (sans the sections warning about end times?)

(Some might point out that if you die before the event happens that you are being warned about even happens -- then it STILL does not matter how much you knew about the warning. That scenario is "a given" - I don't think anyone debates against it.)

Well, this is just nit picking and a technicality to your scenario.. But.. if someone was righteous in the days of Noah... then they would have been on the ark.

However, I get your point.. If someone has salvation and knows nothing about the end times... I be there are a lot of Christians like this... Then, IMO they will be raptured.. wonder what the heck is going on, and be fine.

Also, if they are a Christian, like you have proclaimed.. then "taking the mark and worshiping the beast" (the two things that are necessary in all scripture, to have no possibility of salvation) would never cross their mind.. They would not take the mark.. nor would they bow to the beast.

 

[BobRyan]

It's life and death when it comes to your soul and the deception of Antichrist/Satan. That's the point I'm making. There's an apostasy coming up and if one isn't prepared, then they are in danger of falling into that.


Yes, that's it exactly. Anti in the Greek means "instead of". He will be here instead of Christ pretending to be Christ. And people will believe.



Yes! That's what we need to be prepared for. And it's God that sends the strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie.

Ok it is pretty hard to argue against your scenario being highly consequential and in fact almost impossible to NOT be duped into falling into the trap you say will be set. So a fake second coming complete with a bright and shining Christ, coming in the clouds with shining angels and quoting Bible promises ... blessing mankind etc. (Let's say for example) -- would be very very verrry tough to get around.

What do you propose the Bible solution for that is for the one paying close attention?? What is your scenario for the end of time ? Post-trib pre-mill... ?

 

[BobRyan]

Well, this is just nit picking and a technicality to your scenario.. But.. if someone was righteous in the days of Noah... then they would have been on the ark.

I agree - but then the person in the OP is a bit questionable in the first place by taking the stand that he need not know about the rest of the Bible -- using your logic, because the guy in Noah's day would have to be always learning and watching and ready to act on any late-breaking information God sends.

However, I get your point.. If someone has salvation and knows nothing about the end times... I be there are a lot of Christians like this... Then, IMO they will be raptured.. wonder what the heck is going on, and be fine.

Yep and they will have to admit "it is amazing that I risked nothing by not knowing this in advance". Suppose for example you get raptured and then in heaven you see that the Andromeda Galaxy suddenly collapses into a massive black hole. And you say "well... hmm... didn't know about that ahead of time either".. well.. so what?

The "makes no difference" element in this makes all those Bible chapters about end times just "so much ado about nothing" - nothing that you can do anything about, nothing that matters whether you know it or not. If it is done the way we see so commonly stated these days.

JulieB67 on the other hand is suggesting a much more drastic and impactful scenario if I am reading her post right.

Also, if they are a Christian, like you have proclaimed.. then "taking the mark and worshiping the beast" (the two things that are necessary in all scripture, to have no possibility of salvation) would never cross their mind.. They would not take the mark.. nor would they bow to the beast.

yep -- so then in that post-trib case they would be inconvenienced a lot - but would just keep doing what they were doing before - and not knowing about it ahead of time would make no difference.

 

[DamianWarS]

warning about what? Warning about something you have no control over??? Warning that you might not guess the right "sequence" of something you have no control over??

This is the very thing that the person in the OP scenario is ignoring.

Jesus gives a warning, it seems to be the most important person to benefit from the warning are those who don't yet have faith but the catch is they need to be told which is our role. Reading Matt 24 has a lot of doom and gloom like verse 9 "you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me" this warning serves a good reminder of how God works because many have a type of faith that would tell them God has abandoned them if these things were to happen. We as the church can be reminded that when we find ourselves in these places God has not abandoned us as these things were foretold and we are a part of that plan.

I would say the largest negative impact would be to the unbeliever, not the believer but it is our responsibility to carry the message to the unbeliever so ignoring part of the message seems to miss the point and I really don't want to be questioned by Christ one day asking why I willfully ignored these parts of scripture. I get bull horn guy on the street shouting "repent the end is near" doesn't draw large crowds but we can still be strategic with these parts of scripture and know when the right time is to tell others about it.

perhaps you should be focusing on the reverse asking what are the benefits of these scriptures to the believer

 

[ZNP]

1. The OP does not ask whether you should know "the day or the hour" -- it only asks about ignoring the Bible teaching/warning about the end times.. Not "ignoring the Bible statements telling you that Nov 20, 2020 is the date of the second coming" or any such thing. That is not even in the OP.

2. Noah lived at the time before the flood when people like Enoch were not only saved by grace through faith - but in fact went directly to heaven without dying. Noah is held up as a giant of the faith , an example to NT believers in Hebrews 11 - a man who was fully engaged in the gospel teaching of "righteousness by faith"

3. Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 says that Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Heb 4:2 says the "gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".
1 Peter 1 says that the OT Bible writers were informed via the "Spirit of Christ" about the "sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow".

 

[JulieB67]

quoting Bible

If you remember, Satan quoted scripture to Christ only he twisted it with just a word or two. But sadly he knows scripture better than most Christians which is why this is one of the main reasons we need it as Paul taught. We have to be able to fight the "fiery darts of Satan" he will be so good, the entire world will wonder after him and the angels he brings along with him. That's the true deception that will envelop the entire world. People expecting are some monster but as Daniel teaches, he destroys "wonderfully". That's why when the true Christ comes back people will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

That's also why in Matthew 24 Christ says during that time, if someone says here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not. And why he says he comes at an hour most do not expect. What's an hour most do not expect? When you think he's already here. Paul teaches people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, God's wrath. That's how it's going to be. And that's why even if it doesn't happen in our lifetimes, we should always be on watch.

What do you propose the Bible solution for that is for the one paying close attention?? What is your scenario for the end of time ? Post-trib pre-mill... ?

Christ says it simply -those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. He says in our patience we are to possess our souls. Some will also be delivered up at this time for a testimony. And it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them because the gospel must be preached to the nations and then the end will come.

I don't really like labels but I believe Christ returns at the 7th trump. And I don't believe God's wrath will harm us. He knows who are his and who isn't. And yes, I am pre-mill.

 

[JacksBratt]

I agree - but then the person in the OP is a bit questionable in the first place by taking the stand that he need not know about the rest of the Bible -- using your logic, because the guy in Noah's day would have to be always learning and watching and ready to act on any late-breaking information God sends.

My point was that God saved all the righteous people on the earth at that time. Sadly, it was only Noah's family and three wives for his sons..
So, if this guy was righteous.. God would have made sure that he was on the ark too.

Again.. just a technicality.

Yep and they will have to admit "it is amazing that I risked nothing by not knowing this in advance". Suppose for example you get raptured and then in heaven you see that the Andromeda Galaxy suddenly collapses into a massive black hole. And you say "well... hmm... didn't know about that ahead of time either".. well.. so what?

Ignorance is bliss... right?

I don't think that a lot of the discussions we have on this forum concern that many people. They are living their lives for God.. but have different things that concern them..

My wife, a strong Christian, is constantly witnessing to people about the basics of salvation and the basics of living a Godly life..

She is actually annoyed by my fascination with end times, Nephilime, Giant skulls, "alien" space craft, coming one world government, Flat earth globe earth... and any other strange and wonderful things that make me go Hmmmmm.

However, she is not going to be in any harm by any event of the future where the end times is concerned. IMO

yep -- so then in that post-trib case they would be inconvenienced a lot - but would just keep doing what they were doing before - and not knowing about it ahead of time would make no difference.

I think so... The scriptures say that God will let no man snatch us from His grasp... I hold to that.

It's like driving down a road you have never been on.. As you come to each curve, hill, bridge, pot hole... you deal with it based on your experience of driving.

These people will do just that.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus gives a warning, it seems to be the most important person to benefit from the warning are those who don't yet have faith but the catch is they need to be told which is our role. Reading Matt 24 has a lot of doom and gloom like verse 9 "you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me" this warning serves a good reminder of how God works because many have a type of faith that would tell them God has abandoned them if these things were to happen. We as the church can be reminded that when we find ourselves in these places God has not abandoned us as these things were foretold and we are a part of that plan.

True - and in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of saints with over 50 million killed that would be comfort to them. So also the millions of Christians killed in the 1900's.

Still they would not need anything like an end-time scenario pre-trib, amill, post mill, pre-mill to help them with those situations.

I would say the largest negative impact would be to the unbeliever, not the believer

The unbeliever that dies before the end-times ... gets the lake of fire.
the unbeliever that dies in the end times ... gets the lake of fire.

How are they at "increased risk" by not know about a specific end-time scenario?

perhaps you should be focusing on the reverse asking what are the benefits of these scriptures to the believer

That is in the question "what is the risk of ignoring these texts" -- presumably it is that you don't get the benefit of them.

 

[BobRyan]

I think so... The scriptures say that God will let no man snatch us from His grasp... I hold to that.

It's like driving down a road you have never been on.. As you come to each curve, hill, bridge, pot hole... you deal with it based on your experience of driving.

These people will do just that.

They would have to already be doing just that. They would have to already be reacting to new information and responding quickly, alert, paying attention.

A person used to drunk driving is not going to suddenly become an expert driver when road conditions become hazardous.

 

[ZNP]

1. The OP does not ask whether you should know "the day or the hour" -- it only asks about ignoring the Bible teaching/warning about the end times.. Not "ignoring the Bible statements telling you that Nov 20, 2020 is the date of the second coming" or any such thing. That is not even in the OP.

OK, a very important prophecy is Daniel's 70 weeks. That prophecy is ideal in helping someone identify Jesus Christ the Messiah. That is critical to the gospel. It might not have helped 95% of those that came to the Lord but if it helped some who were scribes and pharisees, then you can see that it is profitable. That prophecy also helps you understand that there is a gap from the time of the Lord's crucifixion to the the 70th week. That could have comforted Christians for the last 2,000 years. Finally, that prophecy makes it very clear that it is all about Jerusalem. So one can see from many different angles that this prophecy could have helped those who put their trust in God from the time of Daniel until today. It is an end time prophecy and it is profitable for the believers.

Instead of being incredibly vague with the end time prophecies, why not pick one specific one and see if it would be profitable for believers.

Your question though is the opposite, does it matter if we ignore it? Does it matter if God ignores you? You are asking if it makes any difference if you ignore what God has spoken, I would ask does it make any difference if God ignores you?


Hosea 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.
“Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
I also will ignore your children.