So what? -- why all the fuss about eschatology (final events)???

[BobRyan]

Great question, we know that it does make a difference because the Lord said Man shall live by every word and Paul said that all scripture is God breathed. But someone made a great point that if all these "end time" prophecies are meant for a very specific 7 year period in the last 2,000 years then for many people it didn't make any difference and that is contrary to what Jesus and Paul taught.

Noah built a real boat for 120 real years leading up to a real flood.

Some people died during that 120 year period of time and never saw the flood. Suppose they did all in their power to tell everyone around them to listen to Noah and not get on the boat when they got the chance. In other words - suppose they encouraged everyone to watch and be ready - - and be very sure to listen to Noah? Would that not be what God wanted of them as well?

 

[BobRyan]

Problem is .... people will think the anti-christ is Christ himself .... the deception is the anti christ is "christ" ... and the other beasts (false christian leaders) as well .... it's about false Christianity ... a deception.

The deception is bowing down to (following) one who is perceived to be christ but is not.

It's not somebody putting up a statue/idol and saying worship it.

ok - now "That" would be a huge problem -- and hard to survive. If someone shows up with shining angels in the sky and presents himself as the 2nd coming - affirming Bible promises and blessing the people... but is a fake... that would be a huge problem ... if... he were not the real deal.

I am sure we would all wish for that not to be the case.

But is that almost-impossible-to-survive scenario what is being presented in all these pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib , pre-mill, post-mill, amill versions of end times?

or is it about bowing down to an image/idol non-Christian religion etc?

 

[ZNP]

Noah built a real boat for 120 real years leading up to a real flood.

Some people died during that 120 year period of time and never saw the flood. Suppose they did all in their power to tell everyone around them to listen to Noah and not get on the boat when they got the chance. In other words - suppose they encouraged everyone to watch and be ready - - and be very sure to listen to Noah? Would that not be what God wanted of them as well?

Noah preached the gospel to them and they all ignored him. That is part of the record.

"watch and be ready" in the context of Noah is idiotic if it doesn't include getting into the boat.

 

[BobRyan]

Noah preached the gospel to them and they all ignored him. That is part of the record.

"watch and be ready" in the context of Noah is idiotic if it doesn't include getting into the boat.

1. It is not "idiotic" to admit that someone could have died of something other than drowning during the 120 years it took to build the boat.

2. It is not idiotic to suggest that they would still want to encourage their family to "choose survival" over drowning.

My point is not that such a person would not want his family on the boat - rather that he would want them on it even though he himself died 50 years before the event actually occurred.

 

[ZNP]

1. It is not "idiotic" to admit that someone could have died of something other than drowning during the 120 years it took to build the boat.

Either you didn't read my first post (#39) or you didn't understand it.

2. It is not idiotic to suggest that they would still want to encourage their family to "choose survival" over drowning.

My point is not that such a person would not want his family on the boat - rather that he would want them on it even though he himself died 50 years before the event actually occurred.

Either you didn't read my first post (#39) or you didn't understand it.

 

[renniks]

Someone mentioned that they were scared of the "mark of the beast" and I posted this --



The warnings in the Bible about end times events - are off the charts.

That's because most of them were for Christians about to be severely persecuted around 90 AD, not for 20th century believers.

 

[eleos1954]

ok - now "That" would be a huge problem -- and hard to survive. If someone shows up with shining angels in the sky and presents himself as the 2nd coming - affirming Bible promises and blessing the people... but is a fake... that would be a huge problem ... if... he were not the real deal.

I am sure we would all wish for that not to be the case.

But is this what is in all these pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib , pre-mill, post-mill, amill versions of end times?

Bible says that is in fact the case ....

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

2 Corinthians 11:14

New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

But is this what is in all these pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib , pre-mill, post-mill, amill versions of end times?

Those days will be shortened but the elect of that time will indeed go through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

 

[ZNP]

That's because most of them were for Christians about to be severely persecuted around 90 AD, not for 20th century believers.

That's because the persecution they were about to suffer is quite applicable to the persecution we will suffer at the end of this age.

 

[BobRyan]

Bible says that is in fact the case ....

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

2 Corinthians 11:14

New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.


Those days will be shortened but the elect of that time will indeed go through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

Agreed but is that 'angel of light' at the end times in Rev 13 holding up an image/idol for us all to bow down and worship and promoting some Christ-rejecting non-Christian form religion?

All the options on the board seem to be saying "yep that's what is coming".

And that is the very thing that my "4 gospels only" person is perfectly fitted to avoid.

 

[Douggg]

But if the person in the OP pays no attention to Matt 24... in fact carefully avoid it since it speaks of end - times -- and just chooses to be a good born-again Christian who stays out of the weeds, out of the difficult confusing topics... just ignores everything... stays born-again and keeps reading those 4 books of the Bible

Then the person is not doing what Jesus said to do.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

How can a person read the four gospel books of the bible - and "unitentionally" ignore the end times? The ignoring has to be intentional.

I am not saying that the person would not be taken in the rapture. But, imo, he would lessen his rewards in heaven he could have had.

 

[eleos1954]

Agreed but is that 'angel of light' at the end times in Rev 13 holding up an image/idol for us all to bow down and worship and promoting some Christ-rejecting non-Christian form religion?

All the options on the board seem to be saying "yep that's what is coming".

And that is the very thing that my "4 gospels only" person is perfectly fitted to avoid.

No it's not holding up a physical image/idol .... the "image/idol" is a man, who satan is behind professing to be Christ ... don't people grasp what deception is? People will be so deceived thinking the beast is in fact Christ ... many will bow down and worship him.

Satan isn't after christ-rejecting non-christian people .... they are already lost (already in his (satans) pocket so to speak) .... satan is after Gods people ... people who follow Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

ok - now "That" would be a huge problem -- and hard to survive. If someone shows up with shining angels in the sky and presents himself as the 2nd coming - affirming Bible promises and blessing the people... but is a fake... that would be a huge problem ... if... he were not the real deal.

I am sure we would all wish for that not to be the case.

But is that almost-impossible-to-survive scenario what is being presented in all these pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib , pre-mill, post-mill, amill versions of end times?

or is it about bowing down to an image/idol non-Christian religion etc?

You left out Preterism and Partial Preterism. There are a number of premillennial scenarios also. As well as reading the book of Revelation in a symbolic manner or spiritual way.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

If it was the last hour when John wrote this two thousand years ago. Would you care to explain how this is possible?
Given it is not the last week.

 

[eleos1954]

You left out Preterism and Partial Preterism. There are a number of premillennial scenarios also. As well as reading the book of Revelation in a symbolic manner or spiritual way.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

If it was the last hour when John wrote this two thousand years ago. Would you care to explain how this is possible?
Given it is not the last week.

last

eschatos: last, extreme
Original Word: ἔσχατος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eschatos
Phonetic Spelling: (es'-khat-os)
Definition: last, extreme
Usage: last, at the last, finally, till the end.
HELPS Word-studies
2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end). 2078/esxatos ("future things"), the root of "eschatology" is "the study of last things." This includes future Bible prophecy, the end-times, and life after death ("the after-life").

hour

hóra: a time or period, an hour
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho'-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything.
HELPS Word-studies
5610 hṓra – properly, an hour; (figuratively) a finite "season"; limited time or opportunity to reach a goal (fulfill a purpose); a divinely pre-set time-period; a limited period to accomplish the Lord's specific purpose, i.e. "the hour" in which specific characteristics prevail exactly like that for a limited time.

 

[klutedavid]

Agreed but is that 'angel of light' at the end times in Rev 13 holding up an image/idol for us all to bow down and worship and promoting some Christ-rejecting non-Christian form religion?

Where in the text (Revelation 13) does it mention an 'angel of light'?

Where does it say in the text (Revelation 13) anything about someone holding up an idol or an image?

I think the end time folk are lured into worshiping the first beast.

And that is the very thing that my "4 gospels only" person is perfectly fitted to avoid.

The four accounts of the life of Jesus, do not mention the beasts or even the mark of the beast. The gospels as you call them do not shed much light on the end time scenario.

 

[klutedavid]

last

eschatos: last, extreme
Original Word: ἔσχατος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eschatos
Phonetic Spelling: (es'-khat-os)
Definition: last, extreme
Usage: last, at the last, finally, till the end.
HELPS Word-studies
2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end). 2078/esxatos ("future things"), the root of "eschatology" is "the study of last things." This includes future Bible prophecy, the end-times, and life after death ("the after-life").

hour

hóra: a time or period, an hour
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho'-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything.
HELPS Word-studies
5610 hṓra – properly, an hour; (figuratively) a finite "season"; limited time or opportunity to reach a goal (fulfill a purpose); a divinely pre-set time-period; a limited period to accomplish the Lord's specific purpose, i.e. "the hour" in which specific characteristics prevail exactly like that for a limited time.

Care to expand on what you are saying. You will have to be more specific.

 

[eleos1954]

Care to expand on what you are saying. You will have to be more specific.

In response to the words last hour used in

1 John 2:18

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

This is the meaning of the words last and hour according to to the Greek Lexicon

Strongs


last

eschatos: last, extreme
Original Word: ἔσχατος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eschatos
Phonetic Spelling: (es'-khat-os)
Definition: last, extreme
Usage: last, at the last, finally, till the end.
HELPS Word-studies
2078 ésxatos (from esxaton, "end, last") – properly, last, final (the furthest, extreme-end). 2078/esxatos ("future things"), the root of "eschatology" is "the study of last things." This includes future Bible prophecy, the end-times, and life after death ("the after-life").

hour

hóra: a time or period, an hour
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho'-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything.
HELPS Word-studies
5610 hṓra – properly, an hour; (figuratively) a finite "season"; limited time or opportunity to reach a goal (fulfill a purpose); a divinely pre-set time-period; a limited period to accomplish the Lord's specific purpose, i.e. "the hour" in which specific characteristics prevail exactly like that for a limited time.

 

[BobRyan]

Bible says that is in fact the case ....

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

2 Corinthians 11:14

New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.


Those days will be shortened but the elect of that time will indeed go through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24

22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

Agreed but is that 'angel of light' at the end times in Rev 13 holding up an image/idol for us all to bow down and worship and promoting some Christ-rejecting non-Christian form religion?

All the options on the board seem to be saying "yep that's what is coming".

And that is the very thing that my "4 gospels only" person is perfectly fitted to avoid.

Where in the text (Revelation 13) does it mention an 'angel of light'?

read the post again - I was asking a question.

Where does it say in the text (Revelation 13) anything about someone holding up an idol or an image?

Read Rev 13 to see the text about worship of the image.

I think the end time folk are lured into worshiping the first beast.

why?

The gospels as you call them do not shed much light on the end time scenario.

Have you read the OP?

Have you read MAtthew 24

 

[BobRyan]

ok - now "That" would be a huge problem -- and hard to survive. If someone shows up with shining angels in the sky and presents himself as the 2nd coming - affirming Bible promises and blessing the people... but is a fake... that would be a huge problem ... if... he were not the real deal.

I am sure we would all wish for that not to be the case.

But is that almost-impossible-to-survive scenario what is being presented in all these pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib , pre-mill, post-mill, amill versions of end times?

or is it about bowing down to an image/idol non-Christian religion etc?

You left out Preterism and Partial Preterism.

because they themselves claim to be pretty much inconsequential for the end-times discussion - so no need.

There are a number of premillennial scenarios also.

do you know of one "that matters" for the OP scenario?

 

[keras]

As it was in the Days of Noah:

1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 You friends, are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. You are children of the Light, of the day. We do not belong to night and darkness. But while they are saying: all is peaceful, all secure; then destruction is upon them, suddenly as the pangs that come upon a woman in childbirth and there will be no escape.

‘You My friends’ - Those who love Him and keep His commands:
John 15:14-15 You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is about, I call you friends because I have disclosed to you everything that I heard from the Father.

‘that Day’- Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry. He stopped at ‘and a Day of vengeance of our God’. That therefore, must be the next prophesied event.
It is wrong to think ‘that Day’ is the Return of Jesus in His glory, for these main reasons;

1/ The situation will hardly be: ‘all is peaceful’, at the end of the Tribulation and with the Anti Christ’s army coming to attack Jerusalem!

2/ The Return will not come ‘as a thief’, that is unexpectedly, because as anyone with a Bible can read that after the AC places his image in the Temple, it will be 1260 days; then the Return.

3/ As described to us in many prophecies, the Day of wrath is a worldwide event, on all nations:

Zephaniah 1:7 Keep silent in the presence of the Lord, for the Day of the Lord is near, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and set apart those His has invited.

Isaiah 13:9 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to a desolation and to destroy the wicked there.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the proud evildoers will be as stubble, that Day will set them ablaze leaving them neither root nor branch.

Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come and who can stand?

‘like a thief’- That is, unexpectedly to all the godless peoples and to those who have ignored or failed to understand the prophetic warnings.

Revelation 3:3 If you do not wake up, you will not know the moment of My coming.

Revelation 16:15 See: I am coming unexpectedly. Happy is the one who stays awake and ready.

Isaiah 46:10 From the beginning I reveal the end, from ancient times what is yet to be.

‘children of the light’-
1 Thess. 5:8 We who belong in the light, must keep prepared and armed with salvation.

Isaiah 42:6 I have formed and destined you to be a light to the nations.....

‘they say; all is peaceful, all secure’- The enemy nations prepare a surprise attack on Israel.
Micah 4:12 They do not understand God’s purposes, they are gathered like sheaves on the threshing floor.

Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Then they ate, drank and married right up to the day Noah went into the ark. They knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. Be ready, therefore, lest He comes when you are unprepared.

‘suddenly destruction is upon them’- This is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible and accurately described as a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

Isaiah 47:8-11 Listen to this, you lovers of luxury, living carefree and thinking you will never be in mourning. Suddenly, in a single Day disaster will come upon you.

Jeremiah 25:32-33 The Lord says: Ruin spreads from nation to nation. A mighty tempest blows up and those whom the Lord has slain on that Day will lie scattered all over the world.

‘there will be no escape’-Everyone will be affected, this Day will come upon everyone. Luke 21:35

Romans 2:3 Do you imagine that you can escape the judgement of God?

Isaiah 2:19 They will creep into caves to hide when the Lord strikes the world with terror.

Revelation 6:16-17 They called out: Hide us from the wrath of God and the Lamb’.
Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 24:32-51 is Jesus's instructions for Christians in the parable of the fig tree generation. It is in regards to the rapture.

But if the person in the OP pays no attention to Matt 24... in fact carefully avoid it since it speaks of end - times -- and just chooses to be a good born-again Christian who stays out of the weeds, out of the difficult confusing topics... just ignores everything... stays born-again and keeps reading those 4 books of the Bible

Then which scenario puts him "at risk" ?

Is there even one?

How can a person read the four gospel books of the bible - and "unitentionally" ignore the end times?

The OP scenario is about intentionally ignoring the end times -- because accepting Christ as savior is sufficient and no study beyond the Gospels is desired by the person in the OP scenario ... for the sake of this discussion.

I am not saying that the person would not be taken in the rapture.

which is the point of the OP - no risk at all .. that person goes to heaven just like everyone else - even though he intentionally pays no attention at all to any end-time scenario.

But, imo, he would lessen his rewards in heaven he could have had.

But your are only using as your source "IMO" - and I do not claim in the OP that the person does not evangelize and/or try to get as many people to accept Christ (just as he has done) -

Its just that he has no desire to know about scenarios - that don't matter and about which he can do nothing to change.