Responses to Flat Earth Challenges

prodromos

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The level of fail in the OP's linked videos is mind boggling. The fact that they run for over an hour each and there are ad breaks every few minutes makes this appear to be simply so they can profit from youtube. The first two were a complete waste of time. I won't be watching the rest.
 
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Timtofly

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Once again, if Satan has the resources to maintain a perfect worldwide conspiracy for 2.5 millennia, and his goal is to discredit Christianity, then why didn't he ever think of doing the following:

- Forge Roman records showing where Jesus was buried
- Create a fake tomb with a fake body
- Have archaeologists 'discover' the body, thus proving that the Resurrection never happened

This would be a lot easier to do than the ridiculously impossible flat earth conspiracy, and it would be a lot more effective if the aim is to lead souls away from Christ.
Satan can only do what God lets Satan do. Your question would mean God let Satan do those things. Satan is smarter than you. Satan does not use conspiracy. That is human imagination. No human would ever suspect Satan to deceive them with science. That is the basis of your own argument. So if some would never be deceived with false theology and doctrine, science (knowledge) would be the only way. Especially if it does not matter if the earth is flat or a ball. No one can prove God exist. No one can prove if the earth is flat or a ball. No one should even get mad or bent out of shape if told the earth is flat. Why are so many actually mad when they find out the earth is not a ball? That is a very deep emotional reaction. Not all have that reaction, but the earth being flat is not the same thing as your favorite restaurant closing and they put your least favorite food in the same spot.

Now if you had planned on going to the Andromeda galaxy, and worked your whole life to that end, I am sorry.
 
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Kaon

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It would not be possible on a flat earth. Good grief, if you are unable to see the sun for 12 out of 24 hours in a flat earth model, how do you expect everyone to be able to see Christ?
Obviously, the manner in which we will all see Christ coming will not be in the physical mode in which we are accustomed to seeing things.

You didn't actually answer the question except to ridicule the position. Moreover, the Redeemer came back physically and spiritually already; He isn't going to neglect being seen by the vast majority of humans by showing up spiritually only - as how will the unbelievers (who are spiritually blind) see Him, know they have messed up and bend the knee to Him? All knees will bow.

However, I wasn't asking about a flat earth; I was asking how the Redeemer would be seen by observers from the Prime Meridian and International Date Line at the same time.

In other words, can you describe the physics of how an object can negate the need for triangulation, for example, that would allow the Redeemer to be seen by all on the planet at the same time. We "know" different parts of the world see different parts of the sky (sometimes never the same part). So, how would one see the Christ on the globe planet from anywhere - at the same time?

I am asking a question. I have been deceived by all institutions (adademic, legislative and judicial, religious, political, etc.): what kind of learned person would I be if I didn't investigate and remain suspicious of the institutions that work to swindle and deceive?

Humans forgot how to be human.
 
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Kaon

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Yes everyone will see the Lord when He returns. It is His creation and He can do anything with it He desires. This will be a miraculous event not limited to scientific possibilities. If you limit your perception to science only in regard to miracles, then science will dismiss the miracle.

I am a mathematician so I pay close attention to the academia of the explanations on both sides.

Both sides exploit faith to bolster The validity of the stance: it is a typical human response to a dead end in logic and reason (which, at best handicaps human intelligence).

I am saying be consistent. The Redeemer has never expected us to be blind acolytes or naturally ignorant: the enlightenment separated faith and reason because it couldn't juxtaposition the two.

The last thing I rely on is the incredibly short-sighted logic and reason of men. I don't wait a generation for "officials and experts" to confirm what I already know: that would be asinine, and a waste of intellectual time.

The earth needs to be flat for everyone to see Him within the confines of science but beyond science it doesn't. His return alone defies science so why not all people on a spherical earth seeing Him when he does? Christian flat earth believers tend to try to mix their version of science with God's Word and ignore true scienctific evidence and what God's Word is really saying.

His return doesn't defy "science" as if "science" is the truth. Science is "knowledge", and often knowledge is flawed when it comes to humans. That is why, for example, the world claims to attempt to unify the fundamental forces, but still travels using combustion. Cart before horse, but this is per usual with humans. We are ignorant - so ignorant that we don't realize the folly of our ways even when the simplicity is revealed.

Before you assume I agree or disagree with you, and before you assume where I am in terms of indulging in human academia and knowledge, think: how is the Redeemer supposed to be seen by ALL on the earth when it is a ball? I am looking for a physical reason since I am asking entities (humans) that use physics to justify reality.

I am not interested in typical human knee-jerk reactions to questions about reality as they believe/know it.
 
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Phil G

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I am a mathematician so I pay close attention to the academia of the explanations on both sides.

Both sides exploit faith to bolster The validity of the stance: it is a typical human response to a dead end in logic and reason (which, at best handicaps human intelligence).

I am saying be consistent. The Redeemer has never expected us to be blind acolytes or naturally ignorant: the enlightenment separated faith and reason because it couldn't juxtaposition the two.

The last thing I rely on is the incredibly short-sighted logic and reason of men. I don't wait a generation for "officials and experts" to confirm what I already know: that would be asinine, and a waste of intellectual time.



His return doesn't defy "science" as if "science" is the truth. Science is "knowledge", and often knowledge is flawed when it comes to humans. That is why, for example, the world claims to attempt to unify the fundamental forces, but still travels using combustion. Cart before horse, but this is per usual with humans. We are ignorant - so ignorant that we don't realize the folly of our ways even when the simplicity is revealed.

Before you assume I agree or disagree with you, and before you assume where I am in terms of indulging in human academia and knowledge, think: how is the Redeemer supposed to be seen by ALL on the earth when it is a ball? I am looking for a physical reason since I am asking entities (humans) that use physics to justify reality.

I am not interested in typical human knee-jerk reactions to questions about reality as they believe/know it.

If I was to think that not everyone will see Jesus when He returns because the world is a ball, I would be denying the power of God over His creation. It's as simple as that.

Looking for a physical reason is really a non-starter just as looking for a physical reason for the Lord's death, resurrection and return will lead nowhere.

Science is indeed knowledge but it is also study by which to attain knowledge and that is what is defied by His return. The study of the natural order of things cannot explain His return no more than it can explain the fact that everyone will see Him at the same time if the earth is a ball.
 
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Kaon

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If I was to think that not everyone will see Jesus when He returns because the world is a ball, I would be denying the power of God over His creation. It's as simple as that.

Not really.

I am actually saying that everyone is supposed to see the Redeemer when He returns - I am assuming that to be true.

What I am asking is, "If our plane of existence/planet/earth is a ball, then how would physics explain the Redeemer as being visible from, say, the Prime Meridian and International Date Line by two different people located in each point at the same time?" I am asking a deeper question why believers adhere to the logic of men (i.e. physics) up until a point when it breaks down - or not at all - when we have been told the truth several times over (perhaps in different ways meant for us to connect the dots)?

The reason why spirituality was brought up is because it is clear that not nearly the entire world (or, even believers) can perceive spirit - categorically because the majority of the world did not come from spirit. So, when it is said that He will, everyone will see it, and everyone will bend the knee I am venturing that this means the Redeemer will be visible to people who cannot even perceive spirit dimensions (i.e. only physical ones). It is entirely possible that the Redeemer would "open their eyes" at that moment as well.
 
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Phil G

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Not really.

I am actually saying that everyone is supposed to see the Redeemer when He returns - I am assuming that to be true.

What I am asking is, "If our plane of existence/planet/earth is a ball, then how would physics explain the Redeemer as being visible from, say, the Prime Meridian and International Date Line by two different people located in each point at the same time?" I am asking a deeper question why believers adhere to the logic of men (i.e. physics) up until a point when it breaks down - or not at all - when we have been told the truth several times over (perhaps in different ways meant for us to connect the dots)?

The reason why spirituality was brought up is because it is clear that not nearly the entire world (or, even believers) can perceive spirit - categorically because the majority of the world did not come from spirit. So, when it is said that He will, everyone will see it, and everyone will bend the knee I am venturing that this means the Redeemer will be visible to people who cannot even perceive spirit dimensions (i.e. only physical ones). It is entirely possible that the Redeemer would "open their eyes" at that moment as well.

It's not really that believers adhere to the logic of men until it breaks down. For logic of men to be trusted, the evidence needs to be seen. I see the evidence of a spherical earth very clearly. The sun going below the horizon makes no sense if the earth is flat. The island photos I posted earlier make no sense if the earth is flat.

Now you may say that to be consistent, everyone phyiscally seeing the Lord when He returns makes no sense if the earth is round. But that is to assume the natural order of things will operate exacly the same as they do now when He returns. But if God is creator, then is it not possible that He changes the natural order of things to enable all to see Him even if the earth is a ball?

If you are saying that all will see Him spiritually rather than physically, I don't think that's what Scripture is saying. I think the sense of Revelation 1:7 is very much physical.
 
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Timtofly

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It's not really that believers adhere to the logic of men until it breaks down. For logic of men to be trusted, the evidence needs to be seen. I see the evidence of a spherical earth very clearly. The sun going below the horizon makes no sense if the earth is flat. The island photos I posted earlier make no sense if the earth is flat.

Now you may say that to be consistent, everyone phyiscally seeing the Lord when He returns makes no sense if the earth is round. But that is to assume the natural order of things will operate exacly the same as they do now when He returns. But if God is creator, then is it not possible that He changes the natural order of things to enable all to see Him even if the earth is a ball?

If you are saying that all will see Him spiritually rather than physically, I don't think that's what Scripture is saying. I think the sense of Revelation 1:7 is very much physical.
It is a very sure thing that when the time comes, all humanity will see, believe, and accept a flat earth. But some only for a moment. Denial is a very strong mental escape mechanism.

Case in point. At least a million if not more, Hebrews came out of bondage away from Egypt to mount Sinai. The presence of God was clearly witnessed by all. Before Moses could come back from seeing God, that the whole congregation were very much aware of, they had already given up all the gold silver and precious metals just taken from Egypt. It seems all of it, nothing held back, just to form an image of a god they could see. They already ignored the One in the clearly "unnatural" sight at the top of the mountain who was arranging their livelihood with Moses.

Even in the presence of God, humans will still see only what they want to see. They will still believe what their mind is telling them. The time of the Lord's return will not even be as tramatic at escaping from Egypt without being killed and seeing God on the top of a mountain. It will be such a magnitude more than, even more than Noah's Flood, which covered the whole earth and drowned all flesh with the breath of life in their lungs. This time no one will die, but it will be more drastic of an event. Even then, humans will soon forget it even happened. They will re-arrange their lives and go on living, even if the new way of doing things, will be as foreign as moving to the moon.
 
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Kaon

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It's not really that believers adhere to the logic of men until it breaks down. For logic of men to be trusted, the evidence needs to be seen. I see the evidence of a spherical earth very clearly. The sun going below the horizon makes no sense if the earth is flat. The island photos I posted earlier make no sense if the earth is flat.

Evidence based on the 5 senses? Evidence, we are told often, can be mimicked by the brain - or even manufactured - by simple chemistry. Perception only goes so far, especially when there is an enemy that exploits this fault.

There is a most certainly an explanation for a sunrise/sunset perceived phenomenon if the earth is flat manifold - I have done the physics myself (and, you can too). Your knowledge base already conditions you to believe that the earth is globe and the sun rises and sets - from infancy to university. So, it isn't really as if it was your original idea based on an impartial foundation of knowledge. A lot of things don't make sense if you think about them; that doesn't mean they are wrong. Alarming, perhaps - but not necessarily wrong.


Now you may say that to be consistent, everyone phyiscally seeing the Lord when He returns makes no sense if the earth is round. But that is to assume the natural order of things will operate exacly the same as they do now when He returns. But if God is creator, then is it not possible that He changes the natural order of things to enable all to see Him even if the earth is a ball?

We are just moving goal posts here: when has the Most High ever done anything that is outside the laws of nature? The laws of nature as man understands them does not equate to the laws of nature - which may still be rooted in rudimentary physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics (what we consider the paramount of modern knowledge). We (now) understand how many miracles can happen through our modern understanding of academics. It is still a miracle; when a spinal surgeon can heal your paralysis it is still a miracle. Science does not dissolve the miracle aspect of what is, in reality, natural.

I understand that the Most High works in ways beyond man's understanding, but He has never done anything that is beyond man's understanding. Meaning: there has always been someone who told us everything we need to know to know exactly why something befalls us. We usually always reject it as foolishness; then, we cry later as if no one informed us.


What I am saying is that we can't adopt academics as we know it for some things about the Word of the Most High, but then throw out the books and claim spirituality when it doesn't work with modern science. Either our interpretation is wrong, modern science is wrong, or both. At some point, one has to make a decision to improve on one or many of the flawed facets in order to come to spiritual enrichment: usually this means being a fool in the world. If you are using academic logic to explain spiritual phenomena, then you must be consistent and use the same logic to explain other spiritual phenomena.

We know how a sea can be parted for hundreds of people to walk and camp over it - these are phenomena of gravity and seismicity. We know how a resurrection could work - we have been participating in necromancy since the beginning of humanity. However, no one has been able to figure out how to get one's unique spirit in one's unique vessel: but, that doesn't mean resurrection isn't possible. Where there is a wall, we innovate or completely make up our own pathway (i.e. consciousness transfer and upload).


If you are saying that all will see Him spiritually rather than physically, I don't think that's what Scripture is saying. I think the sense of Revelation 1:7 is very much physical.

All cannot see Him spiritually because all do not come from spirit. This is why all cannot perceive Him now, even in the soup-stock of "evidence" around us. I am saying that because not all will perceive Him spiritually, He will (as He always does) make a way for the world to see Him in a way that is within their limitations: naturally. There are a lot of aspects of nature people are ignorant of because of the school of thought for which they subscribe. The enemy exploits this fault.

So, how will two people (one at the P.M., one at the Int'l DL) naturally see Him in a globe earth at the same time? And, if physics cannot explain it, why is physics (as humans know it in modernity) an acceptable school of thought for anything else we consider true? I think these are legitimate questions one should ask even if one isn't a believer in anything beyond nature.
 
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Strathos

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It is a very sure thing that when the time comes, all humanity will see, believe, and accept a flat earth. But some only for a moment. Denial is a very strong mental escape mechanism.

What happens when God tells you you're wrong and it's round?
 
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SeventyOne

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What happens when God tells you you're wrong and it's round?

Probably wait a moment for when He states something like, "Psych! Had you going there for a moment. But seriously, kudos for believing my word and not the world."

Ok. Maybe not those exact words, but with the same effect.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Probably wait a moment for when He states something like, "Psych! Had you going there for a moment. But seriously, kudos for believing my word and not the world."

Ok. Maybe not those exact words, but with the same effect.

So when space tourism picks up and corporations are valuing their stocks with results from space activities and nobody ever mentions earth being flat you just sing to yourself and ignore it all because everyone else is deceived ?
 
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Strathos

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Probably wait a moment for when He states something like, "Psych! Had you going there for a moment. But seriously, kudos for believing my word and not the world."

Ok. Maybe not those exact words, but with the same effect.

Too bad He won't be kidding. Are you going to accuse Him of being in on the conspiracy too?
 
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Phil G

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It is a very sure thing that when the time comes, all humanity will see, believe, and accept a flat earth. But some only for a moment. Denial is a very strong mental escape mechanism.

Case in point. At least a million if not more, Hebrews came out of bondage away from Egypt to mount Sinai. The presence of God was clearly witnessed by all. Before Moses could come back from seeing God, that the whole congregation were very much aware of, they had already given up all the gold silver and precious metals just taken from Egypt. It seems all of it, nothing held back, just to form an image of a god they could see. They already ignored the One in the clearly "unnatural" sight at the top of the mountain who was arranging their livelihood with Moses.

Even in the presence of God, humans will still see only what they want to see. They will still believe what their mind is telling them. The time of the Lord's return will not even be as tramatic at escaping from Egypt without being killed and seeing God on the top of a mountain. It will be such a magnitude more than, even more than Noah's Flood, which covered the whole earth and drowned all flesh with the breath of life in their lungs. This time no one will die, but it will be more drastic of an event. Even then, humans will soon forget it even happened. They will re-arrange their lives and go on living, even if the new way of doing things, will be as foreign as moving to the moon.

No, this is bending Scripture to your own purpose. There is a big difference between the Creator and His creation. God is spirit who exists outside of time and space. His creation is not spirit and exists within the confines of time and space. We are all in the presence of God all the time. That takes faith to believe day by day but the evidence is His Holy Spirit in our lives. He is our guarantee of our salvation.

With the earth however, His Word does not reveal its shape but its shape is obviously physical not spiritual. So physical evidence is legitimate. A physical dome rotating over a flat or even curved earth rather than spherical earth does not fit the physical evidence. Stars do not rotate above the earth around a single pole. There are two poles around which the stars are seen to rotate. I have watched videos where flat earth believers try to explain this by saying there are two rotating sky domes or even a rotating sky sphere but they don't fit the evidence either.

What I see when it comes to the island in my photos is very consistent. The horizon of the sea obscures some of the side profile of the island at lower elevation, or a further distance even at a higher elevation. This must mean the sea is curved. Flat earth believers claim to be able to see hundreds of miles when we shouldn't if the earth is spherical. This is also using what they call 'physical evidence'. But the evidence I see shows this to be untrue. I can't even see below about 130 feet above sea level at a distance of 21 miles with a viewing elevation of 20 feet above sea level. Some people try to then claim the earth is curved but still not anything like a sphere but this doesn't fit with other evidence in the sky.

It all leads to a situation where, in order to believe the earth is flat, a person has to deny the physiical evidence and put their faith in those who claim it to be so. They point to non-definitive Scrptures as their evidence in the Bible and then they point to contradictory physical evidence and say 'proven' when it is anything but!

As for the Lord's return, I agree that when Jesus returns physically it will be an event like no other but Zechariah 14 indicates people will die when He does. Millenium or not, this is the end of people ruling themselves on earth.
 
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Phil G

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Evidence based on the 5 senses? Evidence, we are told often, can be mimicked by the brain - or even manufactured - by simple chemistry. Perception only goes so far, especially when there is an enemy that exploits this fault.

There is a most certainly an explanation for a sunrise/sunset perceived phenomenon if the earth is flat manifold - I have done the physics myself (and, you can too). Your knowledge base already conditions you to believe that the earth is globe and the sun rises and sets - from infancy to university. So, it isn't really as if it was your original idea based on an impartial foundation of knowledge. A lot of things don't make sense if you think about them; that doesn't mean they are wrong. Alarming, perhaps - but not necessarily wrong.




We are just moving goal posts here: when has the Most High ever done anything that is outside the laws of nature? The laws of nature as man understands them does not equate to the laws of nature - which may still be rooted in rudimentary physics, chemistry, biology and mathematics (what we consider the paramount of modern knowledge). We (now) understand how many miracles can happen through our modern understanding of academics. It is still a miracle; when a spinal surgeon can heal your paralysis it is still a miracle. Science does not dissolve the miracle aspect of what is, in reality, natural.

I understand that the Most High works in ways beyond man's understanding, but He has never done anything that is beyond man's understanding. Meaning: there has always been someone who told us everything we need to know to know exactly why something befalls us. We usually always reject it as foolishness; then, we cry later as if no one informed us.


What I am saying is that we can't adopt academics as we know it for some things about the Word of the Most High, but then throw out the books and claim spirituality when it doesn't work with modern science. Either our interpretation is wrong, modern science is wrong, or both. At some point, one has to make a decision to improve on one or many of the flawed facets in order to come to spiritual enrichment: usually this means being a fool in the world. If you are using academic logic to explain spiritual phenomena, then you must be consistent and use the same logic to explain other spiritual phenomena.

We know how a sea can be parted for hundreds of people to walk and camp over it - these are phenomena of gravity and seismicity. We know how a resurrection could work - we have been participating in necromancy since the beginning of humanity. However, no one has been able to figure out how to get one's unique spirit in one's unique vessel: but, that doesn't mean resurrection isn't possible. Where there is a wall, we innovate or completely make up our own pathway (i.e. consciousness transfer and upload).




All cannot see Him spiritually because all do not come from spirit. This is why all cannot perceive Him now, even in the soup-stock of "evidence" around us. I am saying that because not all will perceive Him spiritually, He will (as He always does) make a way for the world to see Him in a way that is within their limitations: naturally. There are a lot of aspects of nature people are ignorant of because of the school of thought for which they subscribe. The enemy exploits this fault.

So, how will two people (one at the P.M., one at the Int'l DL) naturally see Him in a globe earth at the same time? And, if physics cannot explain it, why is physics (as humans know it in modernity) an acceptable school of thought for anything else we consider true? I think these are legitimate questions one should ask even if one isn't a believer in anything beyond nature.

Well now it seems to me you are trying to say that physics is a constant and will remain so when Jesus returns and that all we need to do is understand it better and then we'll have to admit the earth is flat. That sounds a bit too much like a Richard Dawkins method for me!

You say Jesus will 'make a way for the world to see Him in a way that is within their limitations: naturally.' But your naturally is only by your understanding of the way nature works now. God is Creator, He designed and created this universe. It doesn't have to happen naturally as we understand it. I wouldn't be limiting God's power so tightly or at all!
 
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SeventyOne

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Too bad He won't be kidding. Are you going to accuse Him of being in on the conspiracy too?

Earth is flat and under the dome, just as the scriptures indicate and the Hebrews believed. I'm not the one who would be in the situation of making such an accusation.

The real question is, will you also call Him a stupid flat earther? Will you, when you find you've been wrong all along?
 
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Strathos

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Earth is flat and under the dome, just as the scriptures indicate and the Hebrews believed. I'm not the one who would be in the situation of making such an accusation.

The real question is, will you also call Him a stupid flat earther? Will you, when you find you've been wrong all along?

Oh no, I believe what God tells me. Which is why I don't go reading things into the Bible that aren't there. The issue is that you are so committed that nothing could ever make you admit you are wrong.
 
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SeventyOne

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Oh no, I believe what God tells me. Which is why I don't go reading things into the Bible that aren't there.

Generation after generation of Hebrews were able to find it. I guess that just makes you so much smarter than they ever were. Gratz on that, I suppose.


The issue is that you are so committed that nothing could ever make you admit you are wrong.

Except, between the two of us concerning the shape of the earth, I'm the only one to admit I was indeed wrong, and even chose to alter my entire paradigm, knowing the ridicule it would bring. That issue is demonstrably yours, not mine.
 
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