Undecided on the Rapture Timing

Jamdoc said:

I'm going to disagree because the timing Jesus gave was after the tribulation in Matthew 24, the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 doesn't line up with the description in Matthew 24, HOWEVER, the description in Revelation 6:12-13 DOES match the description in Matthew 24:29-31. Once you see it, you'll understand, God promised us tribulation in this world, He will not spare us from other people hating us for His name's sake. He will however, spare us from His wrath, the trumpets and vials.

So you can see Tribulation -> Rapture -> Wrath of God -> Jesus comes to earth on a white horse with His saints -> Armageddon -> Millennial Kingdom -> Satan's little season and last act of Rebellion -> End of the World and Final Judgement -> Eternity
That is taking Revelation as being written mostly in order. Chapter 12 is an obvious reset since it goes back to the birth of Christ, and chapter 14 goes over the same 144000 that chapter 7 does, and the vials seem to correspond with the trumpets (though they are different, they often complement each other, so I believe they happen simultaneously). It is also taking Revelation fairly literally except obvious symbolism like the multi headed beast.

Click to expand...

"God promised us tribulation in this world"
yes, but what he said is we would face tribulation from the world.
The 7 year tribulation is the world facing tribulation from God. Christians are spared that.

ZNP said:

I don't understand any of this debate. The rapture is not a sign of the Lord's coming for the believers. In Matthew 24 Jesus compares the rapture to Noah entering the ark and the door closing. If you want to be in the ark when the flood comes there are a whole lot of signs you should be paying attention to, this is not one of them.

Click to expand...

See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.
Undecided on the Rapture Timing

Sorn said:

See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.
Undecided on the Rapture Timing

Click to expand...

I understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured prior to the great tribulation. I also understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured after the great tribulation. I understand the Biblical case to be made for multiple raptures. What I don't understand is the obsession with it. Having your loins girded, lamp lit, and opening straightway to the Lord at this time seems far more important than a doctrinal debate about rapture. The rapture will be a sign for the unbelievers. There are plenty of signs for the believers that we should be focused on.

ZNP said:

I understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured prior to the great tribulation. I also understand the Biblical case for Christians being raptured after the great tribulation. I understand the Biblical case to be made for multiple raptures. What I don't understand is the obsession with it. Having your loins girded, lamp lit, and opening straightway to the Lord at this time seems far more important than a doctrinal debate about rapture. The rapture will be a sign for the unbelievers. There are plenty of signs for the believers that we should be focused on.

Click to expand...

Just because its being discussed hardly makes it an obsession.
Its a puzzle and puzzles are interesting if nothing else.

Jamdoc said:

Enoch and Elijah were raptured up to heaven, correct, that's why I believe they will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem. Because they have not yet died their appointed death.
However Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5.
Jesus died and was resurrected.
and I think it's possible that other people who were resurrected by Jesus such as Lazarus may have gone bodily up to heaven rather than die a second time, although that is not covered in scripture. I say this is possible because Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 20:6. If you were resurrected by Jesus you've already taken part in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death. So Lazarus I believe was resurrected and taken to heaven bodily, for the glory of God and would not suffer a second death.

Click to expand...

Nice points, and it looks like you are pre-wrath too! But we must remember, as far as being "raptured", it means to take/snatch upward (in the clouds). It is a mistake to think anything like the rapture Paul described has ever taken place.

If you compare 1st Cor. 15, we get a new body when the rapture takes place and it cannot die. So that means there is a contradiction in the word of God, or our interpretation is wrong.

Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again- if they got a new immortal body. It says Elijah was taken into Heaven by a chariot-by angels. This could be how Enoch went too, it don't say.

Angels carry our souls to Heaven when we die and do the harvesting when Jesus comes back. They are our "ride", and it's going to be cool! I believe the "horses" we are riding on are these angels (cherubs), in Rev 19. Notice in second coming context in Psalm 18, what Jesus rides on, so...

7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.

8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.

9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.

10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

13The LORD also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

So, as far as the two witnesses, it could be them or Moses (my pick)-because he was on the mount of transfiguration, and he does represent the law with Elijah representing the prophets. Elijah is one of them for sure-Jesus said so.

We are appointed to die once and then face the judgment-they are linked in the passage. Does that mean we could not die and then God raise us up without changing us if He wanted- like Laz, and the young girl in Luke 8. They died twice as far as we know, and my wife is a nurse in the ICU and has seen plenty of people die for a short time and come back. If you are right about only dying once, then Enoch and Elijah are it, but they never got a resurrection body, this we can know for certain.

We must remember, as true born again Christians we have passed from death unto life, and our sin has already been judged on the cross. Our works await judgment-which will happen after the resurrection. The unsaved will be raised and judged only on the merits of their works, and none of them are righteous enough to pass Gods judgement.

The 24 elders would have be those raised after Jesus was raised and would be the "wave " offering of grain along with Jesus who is the first fruits. They would have new bodies, and are shown as such in Rev. All this is rooted in the appointed feasts the Lord gave Israel. Jesus will fulfill all the feasts, the feast of trumpets is next.

Who knows what deception will happen in the coming years? If we believe Jesus, believe the word, and trust what He taught us in the Olivet Discourse, we cannot be deceived. He told us before. Who are we going to believe is the question I ask to everyone?




Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Running2win said:

Nice points, and it looks like you are pre-wrath too! But we must remember, as far as being "raptured", it means to take/snatch upward (in the clouds). It is a mistake to think anything like the rapture Paul described has ever taken place.

If you compare 1st Cor. 15, we get a new body when the rapture takes place and it cannot die. So that means there is a contradiction in the word of God, or our interpretation is wrong.

Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again- if they got a new immortal body. It says Elijah was taken into Heaven by a chariot-by angels. This could be how Enoch went too, it don't say.

Angels carry our souls to Heaven when we die and do the harvesting when Jesus comes back. They are our "ride", and it's going to be cool! I believe the "horses" we are riding on are these angels (cherubs), in Rev 19. Notice in second coming context in Psalm 18, what Jesus rides on, so...

7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.

8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.

9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.

10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

13The LORD also thundered in the heavens,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.

So, as far as the two witnesses, it could be them or Moses (my pick)-because he was on the mount of transfiguration, and he does represent the law with Elijah representing the prophets. Elijah is one of them for sure-Jesus said so.

We are appointed to die once and then face the judgment-they are linked in the passage. Does that mean we could not die and then God raise us up without changing us if He wanted- like Laz, and the young girl in Luke 8. They died twice as far as we know, and my wife is a nurse in the ICU and has seen plenty of people die for a short time and come back. If you are right about only dying once, then Enoch and Elijah are it, but they never got a resurrection body, this we can know for certain.

We must remember, as true born again Christians we have passed from death unto life, and our sin has already been judged on the cross. Our works await judgment-which will happen after the resurrection. The unsaved will be raised and judged only on the merits of their works, and none of them are righteous enough to pass Gods judgement.

The 24 elders would have be those raised after Jesus was raised and would be the "wave " offering of grain along with Jesus who is the first fruits. They would have new bodies, and are shown as such in Rev. All this is rooted in the appointed feasts the Lord gave Israel. Jesus will fulfill all the feasts, the feast of trumpets is next.

Who knows what deception will happen in the coming years? If we believe Jesus, believe the word, and trust what He taught us in the Olivet Discourse, we cannot be deceived. He told us before. Who are we going to believe is the question I ask to everyone?




Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

Click to expand...

"Enoch and Elijah was taken into Heaven for sure, but they were not "changed" and given a new body, because they could not die again"

The bible makes it clear that flesh can not enter heaven, to exist in heaven your body needs to change, unless Enoch and Elijah have been wearing space suits all this time.

Not everyone has to die, those Christians alive at the rapture will not experience death.

Edstano said:

(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."

Click to expand...

The word "keep" in this verse is Greek 5083 tereo -means to guard (from loss or injury) over by keeping an eye on. If these were raptured people, God would not need to do so.

It's the same thing as Christ is stating here,

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

To me, that seems to mean, God will rescue the born again believers in the rapture, prior to the Great Tribulation, and while that's going on down on earth, we'll be attending the Wedding of the Lamb in heaven (Rev.19:7-8). Also we will receive our room in heaven that's now being prepared for us (John 14:2-3).

Click to expand...

The wedding place takes place in here on earth after the tribulation.

Isaiah 25:5 "Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low."


Isaiah 25:6 "And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, and fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."

Isaiah 25:7 "And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations."


Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His People shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it."

This is future. There's no way these people below in the lamb's book of life will not take place in the Wedding Supper of the lamb. These "are" the people that will partake in it.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."


Mansion is the greek 3438 mone, means -staying, abode which means dwelling and abiding. And he sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit. It can mean the act or place. But if you fit it with the rest of the scriptures you get the context.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever."


John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Dwelleth and abiding are the same word in the Greek.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."


Farther on in verse 23, Christ pulls it all together,

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

This word abode is the very same word used for mansion in verse 2. But we see in context it means that our dwelling place and rest should be in the Father/ Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Click to expand...

You may find my defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture helpful in this thread here:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

BABerean2 said:

If you watch the video, you will see it is based on scripture instead of any man's opinion.


.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, based on scripture...

better?

Sorn said:

More correctly, a ton if they have seized political power over several countries military forces or exert a high degree of influence over others not directly controlled.

Click to expand...

Ya... but Hitler did that in the late 30's and was still defeated by the simple fact that there where people praying for defeat of his evil rebellion.

ZNP said:

I would have clicked "I agree" with this post but I am not allowed to. Apparently I did a terrible thing. I thought some of these posts were so absurd that the person was joking and so I clicked funny. But they weren't joking, they were serious! Can you imagine how hurtful that is for someone to laugh at your intricately constructed Biblical interpretation.

Click to expand...

Who or what would dare to not allow you to click "I agree"?

If the post entertains you, feel free to laugh as loud and long as you wish.

Then provide Scripture to disprove my "intricately constructed Biblical interpretation".

That could be difficult, since you agree that the interpretation is Biblical.

Sorn said:

About a generation. Ring any bells??

Click to expand...

I'm thinking about 3.5 years...

JacksBratt said:

In my opinion, based on scripture...

better?

Click to expand...

If you can explain how the words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, do not prove chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4, it would be much better...


.

BABerean2 said:

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. There are several books in the New Testament which do not contain the word "church".

We find members of the New Covenant Church in the verse below.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of Christ's Church.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Click to expand...

Revelation 7:14-15

“These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.

They are no longer on earth:

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them."

Your reference in chapter 12 is looking back on the 2000 years of tribulation endured by the church. When the Lamb appears in the 6th seal, the church is complete. Seal 5 explains those waiting for robes. Revelation 6:9-11

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

White robes washed in the blood of the Lamb, revealed by the Lamb, opening the Lamb's book of life. All those in the Lamb's book of life are the church. The church is the restored descendents of Adam. The temple of God is Paradise. It is the temple, because that is where the blood of the Lamb was applied at the cross. The Atonement was God redeeming Adam's fallen descendants back to Himself.

John witnessed the opening of the seals, because God took him to the time the seals would be opened. The church is complete because John points out in Revelation 7:9

"After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;"

In chapter 6 they did not have robes. Now they have robes and their number is more than a human, even today, understanding what a billion means, can count. Can a man today count to a billion, much less billions? Perhaps it is possible, but it would take quite some time. The other issue that many refuse to see is that the church is complete before the 7th seal is opened. The church is not complete until the last living member is in their robe of white in the temple. The rapture has to happen before or at the second coming. The 7th seal cannot be opened until the church is complete. The Trumpets cannot sound, until the 7th seal is opened.

Sorn said:

Not everyone has to die, those Christians alive at the rapture will not experience death.

Click to expand...

I think a lot of folks today teach we will all have to be killed, and there will be no rapture. They mock God's Word, calling it an "escape plan".

jgr said:

Who or what would dare to not allow you to click "I agree"?

If the post entertains you, feel free to laugh as loud and long as you wish.

Then provide Scripture to disprove my "intricately constructed Biblical interpretation".

That could be difficult, since you agree that the interpretation is Biblical.

Click to expand...

Be careful using the rating buttons.. If you "offend" someone, you may be reported.

ZNP said:

Satan is a serpent, an old Dragon, and from that you have constructed a vivid interpretation that all the world leaders, all the fake media, they will push a story that the people being raptured were abducted by aliens. And that is what Gen 3 and Daniel and Paul say?

As wild as that sounds, the second part of this story is just as wild, they say this to calm people down. "Don't worry, that kooky Christian brother of yours wasn't raptured, he was abducted by aliens".

And the third part of this story is even more unbelievable. At a time where the entire world realizes the media is fake, they are censoring the truth, and the governments are lying to them they will accept this story.

Click to expand...

I do not understand your post.

Have you not heard of the 100's of movies over the last 60 years about alien reptiles attacking and taking over the earth?

Satan has already deceived and conditioned this world for all of his deceptions.

Sorn said:

See post #12, the 2 videos take a while to see but a lot of ground is covered. Gives a very good case for pre-trib rapture.
Undecided on the Rapture Timing

Click to expand...

I decided to watch the first video just to see what this man has to say. No offense (honestly!) but I didn't like how he talked about 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 and then totally skipped going into chapter 5 (manuscripts didn't have chapters) where Paul is continuing the subject and calls the time that Christ returns -"the day of the Lord" and then skipped verses in 2nd Thess that were extremely important to the timing.

At the 31 50: mark he goes into the argument of the "imminent return of Christ" and said nothing needed to happen before our gathering back to Christ. He talked about how the Thessalonians had stopped working and had to be exhorted because they thought Christ would return at any time.

It is true that the Thessalonians were confused and thought Christ would return at any moment and so Paul wrote these verses which he skipped,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

He posted 2nd Thess 3:10 which was a totally different subject by then.

Our gathering back to Christ will not happen until these events happen. Christ taught the same thing in the gospels.

I'm very weary of people that pull out scriptures but we don't get the context by reading before and after those scriptures. When you do that, you are in danger of losing context. We wouldn't read any other book that way and the bible is no different. We have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse.

Timtofly said:

I do not understand your post.

Have you not heard of the 100's of movies over the last 60 years about alien reptiles attacking and taking over the earth?

Satan has already deceived and conditioned this world for all of his deceptions.

Click to expand...

Interesting observation...

In the 30's when the radio broadcast "The War of the Worlds" Caused panic, fear, terror and more.

People today would be on the roofs saying "Take me"...

Sorn said:

More correctly, a ton if they have seized political power over several countries military forces or exert a high degree of influence over others not directly controlled.

Click to expand...

Satan controls the whole world. He is an angel. He is not limited by a human physical body. God literally allows Satan free reign on human beings. Humans will be his "toys" for 3.5 years. If you think Nero, Hitler, Stalin, or Mao were bad. Wait till an angel of death is unleashed without any restraint on humanity. At points, his army from sheol will be used as well. It will not get better, it will get extremely wicked. Any who think the church; men, woman, and children are subjected to Satan, they have to be very twisted in their thinking.