Undecided on the Rapture Timing

[ViaCrucis]

I think a lot of folks today teach we will all have to be killed, and there will be no rapture. They mock God's Word, calling it an "escape plan".

God's word isn't being mocked.

False teaching is being rejected because it is false.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Satan controls the whole world.

"The earth is the LORD's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers." - Psalm 24:1-2

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Rapture.... is not the "second coming". These are two separate events.

Well then one of them is false, and it's definitely not the second coming.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JacksBratt]

Well then one of them is false, and it's definitely not the second coming.

-CryptoLutheran

Can you expand?

The rapture is when God removes the church.. into the sky, heaven... Christ meets us in the air.. He does not come to earth.

The second coming is at the end of the tribulation and we come with Him in our new incorruptible glorious heavenly bodies.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can you expand?

The rapture is when God removes the church.. into the sky, heaven... Christ meets us in the air.. He does not come to earth.

I know what "the rapture" means by those who talk about it. And I spent the first almost 20 years of my life believing in it because it's what I was taught and told to believe.

The problem is that it's not in the Bible.

No where in Scripture does it say that God "removes the church.. into the sky, heaven"

It says that when Christ returns--His coming again on the Last Day, or Parousia--the dead will be raised, and we who are alive and remain shall join them to meet the Lord in the air.

Meet the Lord in the air, not go up into heaven.
Meet the Lord in the air, as He is returning here to earth.
That is what Scripture teaches.

There is no God removing Christians from the earth and taking them into heaven.

The Bible doesn't say anything like that.
The ancient fathers of the Church never said anything like that.
The theologians and exegetes from the middle ages, both East and West, never believed or taught anything like that.
The Protestant Reformers never believed or taught it.
No Protestant theologian of any sort believed or taught it for the first couple hundred years after the Reformation.

So where did it come from? If it's not in the Bible, if it's not something which anyone wrote about, believed, taught, or confessed for the entire history of Christianity, from Pentecost onward. Then where did it come from?

Well, we know where it came from. It came from the personal beliefs of John Nelson Darby in the 1800's.

The second coming is at the end of the tribulation and we come with Him in our new incorruptible glorious heavenly bodies.

We are RAISED from the dead at Christ's return in glory.

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power." - 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

Read the Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Timtofly]

In a sense it is an escape, but not from persecution by men but He won't turn His own hand against us. 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Seeing the rapture in Revelation 6:12-13 and evidenced by the saints in heaven in Revelation 7, we're not here for the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath, aside from the 144,000, but they are specifically protected.
So yes, we may suffer, we may be martyred, beheaded, starved, beaten, because it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:. However, we won't be stung by locusts that have stings that cause excruciating agony for 5 months, we won't be gnawing our tongues in pain, we won't be seeking death and unable to find it, we won't be crushed by 60 pound hailstones.
God be praised for that. We may suffer tribulation but God will be our avenger.

I agree with you.

Death is an escape, but I do not see some here saying death does not happen, because I do not believe in death. To claim there is no rapture because it is an escape is the same as claiming there is no death, because it is an escape.

The reason is because God claims the church is completed. God has to rapture the living. Paul does not say we who are alive, and remain, will all be struck by lightning and killed at the Lord's return. Paul does not claim that we who are alive, and remain, will be forced to board an airplane and flown up into the heavens. The most logical thing is what Paul wrote. Thousands of things could have been the means to remove the church from the earth, but still would not be an escape. God says it is the end period.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree with you.

Death is an escape, but I do not see some here saying death does not happen, because I do not believe in death. To claim there is no rapture because it is an escape is the same as claiming there is no death, because it is an escape.

The reason is because God claims the church is completed. God has to rapture the living. Paul does not say we who are alive, and remain, will all be struck by lightning and killed at the Lord's return. Paul does not claim that we who are alive, and remain, will be forced to board an airplane and flown up into the heavens. The most logical thing is what Paul wrote. Thousands of things could have been the means to remove the church from the earth, but still would not be an escape. God says it is the end period.

Matthew 24:22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So yes, not everyone is going to die. There will be some that are alive at the time.

 

[Timtofly]

God's word isn't being mocked.

False teaching is being rejected because it is false.

-CryptoLutheran

The church teaches false doctrine of a bodily resurrection. When are you going to give up that false teaching? Paul has a reason for placing all of the church in the air, and it is not about heaven or earth. It is about the restoration of Adam and all Adam's descendants into Paradise. Paradise at the 6th seal will not be in heaven nor earth. But only the church will be in Paradise. The only humans, sealed between the 6th and 7th seal on earth are the 144K Jewish male virgins, they are the Lamb's disciples on earth. The rest of the church is in Paradise. Jesus Christ as the Lamb will harvest mankind, starting with Israel, during the Trumpets. This is the separation of the sheep and goats. Then the harvest of the nations. This is the wheat and the tares. It was all written down in the Gospels. John recorded the actual events and they are happening now.

One may claim John does not teach a resurrection or rapture of the church. Paul already covered it, and no one agrees on the timing. No one was ever supposed to agree. What is the point if the church was to fall away into apostasy anyways. An apostate church is now teaching many false teachings and they still will never be in agreement. That is 90% of what is taught picks and chooses verses to say whatever they want them to say. When Scriptures are quoted in context, then people deny the truth of Scripture and go back to only picking random verses. They make up silly excuses saying John and the Holy Spirit are not capable of chronological order.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The church teaches false doctrine of a bodily resurrection.

If you believe that Jesus is still dead and rotting in the ground, then we have a much bigger problem on our hands than the silly rapture nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Edstano]

Edstano said,

(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."

Julie B67 said,
The word "keep" in this verse is Greek 5083 tereo -means to guard (from loss or injury) over by keeping an eye on. If these were raptured people, God would not need to do so.

My reply, OK, If the word "Keep" means to guard per Greek, then explain how will God guard us from being beheaded Rev.20:4, ---- 1/3 of the waters became wormwood and many people died Rev 8:11, ----1/3 of the sea became blood Rev.8:9, ---- Locusts came upon the earth with the power of Scorpions to hurt the people for five months Rev.9:10, -----people were scorched by the heat of the Sun Rev. 16:9? Remember there will be millions of people that will need to be guarded.

JulieB67 said, "The wedding takes place in here on earth after the tribulation."

My reply, Rev.19, "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN shouting: Hallelujah" They were cheering the condemnation of the great prostitute. The heavenly scene continues in verse 6-7 "Hallelujah for our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the WEDDING OF THE LAMB has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean , was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

The above scene takes place in heaven and not on earth.

I need help explaining how to post quotes.

 

[Jamdoc]

Uh, I thought everyone here was in agreement that Jesus rose from the dead, a physical, bodily resurrection that could be touched and eat, and that that was what our bodies would be like, physical and tangible, but improved and immortal and able to do things that our current bodies cannot.

Without the resurrection of Jesus our faith has no foundation! The Resurrection is EVERYTHING.

1 Corinthians 15:13-18
I don't even know what else to say.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Edstano said,

(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."

Julie B67 said,
The word "keep" in this verse is Greek 5083 tereo -means to guard (from loss or injury) over by keeping an eye on. If these were raptured people, God would not need to do so.

My reply, OK, If the word "Keep" means to guard per Greek, then explain how will God guard us from being beheaded Rev.20:4, ---- 1/3 of the waters became wormwood and many people died Rev 8:11, ----1/3 of the sea became blood Rev.8:9, ---- Locusts came upon the earth with the power of Scorpions to hurt the people for five months Rev.9:10, -----people were scorched by the heat of the Sun Rev. 16:9? Remember there will be millions of people that will need to be guarded.

JulieB67 said, "The wedding takes place in here on earth after the tribulation."

My reply, Rev.19, "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN shouting: Hallelujah" They were cheering the condemnation of the great prostitute. The heavenly scene continues in verse 6-7 "Hallelujah for our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the WEDDING OF THE LAMB has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean , was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

The above scene takes place in heaven and not on earth.

I need help explaining how to post quotes.

Who is Jesus talking to in Revelation 3:10?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

Who is Jesus talking to in Revelation 3:10?

-CryptoLutheran

That's the one verse that pre tribbers whip out to try and defend their position, totally out of context, and it's such a stretch that it makes Olympic Gymnasts envious.

 

[Edstano]

Jesus is talking to the church of Philadelphia which is the present church that includes me. Jesus goes on to say, "I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus is talking to the church of Philadelphia which is the present church that includes me.

So you subscribe to the church-age theory of interpretation.

May I ask, why? On what hermeneutical and exegetical grounds do you base this interpretation on?

Doesn't it make far more sense that St. John who says he's writing to the seven churches which are in Asia is, in fact, writing to the seven churches which are in Asia? And that the words spoken to the Church in Philadelphia is very much to them?

And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any real exegesis being done with the text.

Jesus goes on to say, "I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name.

He's been coming soon for two thousand years, and it may be another two thousand.

What we have are God's promises to us through the Gospel, that we belong to Jesus Christ. And so no matter what this world throws at us, we have our salvation, our security, our confidence by the grace of God, through faith, in Jesus Christ who suffered, was crucified, dead, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again on the Last Day as judge of the living and the dead.

Glory to God, the day is coming when the dead shall rise, death shall be no more, and God will make all things new. And there will be life everlasting in the World to Come. Even unto the ages of ages.

That's the Christian hope.

The whole Dispensationalist enterprise is not only terrible eschatology, not only does it play fast and loose with the Scriptures without any care or concern about their context, it--at its core--is another (and therefore false) gospel. And a false gospel is no gospel at all. Indeed, the Apostle calls it anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's the one verse that pre tribbers whip out to try and defend their position, totally out of context, and it's such a stretch that it makes Olympic Gymnasts envious.

Oh, I know. I grew up believing this stuff. I used to argue for it too. I used to use a lot of the same arguments, and I used the same proof-texts. Which, fortunately, is also how I know that the arguments are bad, and the proof-texts don't support the position. Because any serious engagement with the texts will cause the house of cards to fall.

What's important is that when the house of cards does fall for someone, that they have a firmer foundation in the truth upon which to stand on the other side. For me that was the realization that what I started to see for myself in Scripture was simply what Christians have always believed. The shifting sand of Dispensationalism provided no stability, but the historic, consistent faith of God's Church over the last two thousand years, built solidly upon the foundation of the Apostles and the Scriptures themselves is rock solid.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

So you subscribe to the church-age theory of interpretation.

May I ask, why? On what hermeneutical and exegetical grounds do you base this interpretation on?

Doesn't it make far more sense that St. John who says he's writing to the seven churches which are in Asia is, in fact, writing to the seven churches which are in Asia? And that the words spoken to the Church in Philadelphia is very much to them?

And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any real exegesis being done with the text.



He's been coming soon for two thousand years, and it may be another two thousand.

What we have are God's promises to us through the Gospel, that we belong to Jesus Christ. And so no matter what this world throws at us, we have our salvation, our security, our confidence by the grace of God, through faith, in Jesus Christ who suffered, was crucified, dead, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again on the Last Day as judge of the living and the dead.

Glory to God, the day is coming when the dead shall rise, death shall be no more, and God will make all things new. And there will be life everlasting in the World to Come. Even unto the ages of ages.

That's the Christian hope.

The whole Dispensationalist enterprise is not only terrible eschatology, not only does it play fast and loose with the Scriptures without any care or concern about their context, it--at its core--is another (and therefore false) gospel. And a false gospel is no gospel at all. Indeed, the Apostle calls it anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

If anything the modern church is Laodicea..

 

[Jamdoc]

Oh, I know. I grew up believing this stuff. I used to argue for it too. I used to use a lot of the same arguments, and I used the same proof-texts. Which, fortunately, is also how I know that the arguments are bad, and the proof-texts don't support the position. Because any serious engagement with the texts will cause the house of cards to fall.

What's important is that when the house of cards does fall for someone, that they have a firmer foundation in the truth upon which to stand on the other side. For me that was the realization that what I started to see for myself in Scripture was simply what Christians have always believed. The shifting sand of Dispensationalism provided no stability, but the historic, consistent faith of God's Church over the last two thousand years, built solidly upon the foundation of the Apostles and the Scriptures themselves is rock solid.

-CryptoLutheran

I never believed pre trib rapture, even though that was always what I was taught and many podcasts and churches still preach it. I write it off, because it's not a BIG deal really, I do not write off the rapture entirely though some people do, reading scripture placed it pre wrath to me, and I've tried to understand post wrath but it required way too much spiritualization of scripture to suck the meaning out of it, and required tarrantino'ing Revelation to be completely out of order. I read it straight forward and always come to pre wrath, if you want to call it mid trib that's fine too.

 

[Sorn]

That's where you're wrong. The Great Tribulation is a period of men led by the Antichrist persecuting Christians. Those who do not worship the world leader (the beast) will be killed. That's by the hand of men, that's Satan and his antichrist. after the 7th seal is when the wrath of God begins. The saints are pulled out before that after the 6th seal.

Seal 1/White Horse: Conquest, 2 ways this can be, a conqueror who does so by annexing other countries, because violence/world war is the 2nd horseman not the first, OR it can be a disease, that conquers the world without war, I actually lean towards this second possibility. The coronavirus has opened my eyes to this possibility, seeing the way the world reacts to a pandemic. I don't necessarily think that this coronavirus is the white horseman, but I do think a coronavirus that is far more deadly may be the white horseman, as Coronavirus is named for its appearance of having a corona, which means "crown" and a crown was given unto him, maybe a mutant strain deriving from this one. If so, praise the Lord that Jesus will return to us soon.
Seal 2/Red Horse: Violence, most likely a world war, but in general peace being taken from the earth, it could just be civil unrest, but it'd need to be violent and people being killed in great numbers, worldwide.
Seal 3/Black Horse: Economic collapse and famine
Seal 4/Pale Horse: the death tallies from all these events that total 1/4 of the world's population, including some increase in animal attacks.
Seal 5/Martyred saints start appearing: THIS is where you really see the great tribulations, people killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ, and John describes them as souls, He knows they are not whole people but just their spirits.
Seal 6/Sun and Moon Darken, Matthew 24 describes the same event as the gathering of the elect. This is the rapture.
Seal 7/God's Wrath begins.

Well you are clearly not pre-trib rapture. But in per-trib rapture Christians are raptured so as to avoid the terrible days ahead. Of course anyone who converts to Christianity after the rapture will have to go through the tribulation and most will be killed during it but i think a few will have to survive and they go on to re-populate the earth, these are the ones gathered (ie protected) right at the end.

 

[Sorn]

Ya... but Hitler did that in the late 30's and was still defeated by the simple fact that there where people praying for defeat of his evil rebellion.

So the millions of (mostly young men) who went to war and gave their lives and the efforts of countries and societies to have war economies are inconsequential and it was just the simple fact that some prayers were said that stopped Hitler?? I..I don't know what to say!!

In any case, the next time round prayer won't help stop him. Only Jesus returning will stop him. Until then he will have his way militarily and politically once he is in power.