Hi ViaCrucis, this is a reply to your 228 post:
YOU ASK, "And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?"
MY REPLY, Because the text indicates so, that is, the whole world wasn't explored when John wrote the Apocalypse.
YOU, Except that Revelation 3:10 doesn't mention the entire planet earth, it mentions the oikoumene, the inhabited world, i.e. the civilized world of the Roman Empire.
ME, I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to make a point. When you insert "oikoumene" which I have no idea what that means, which leaves me with no alternative but to then rely upon you to interpret these Scriptures for me, which I hardly think that's the way God intended it to be. Therefore, I'm trusting that translators of my Bible, to know that "the civilized world of the Roman Empire" means "the whole world" which is what my Bible states. So, according to "oikoumene"does that mean, anything after the Roman Empire does not qualified to be considered anymore?
ME: This church specifically mentions the Great Tribulation which will test everyone alive.
YOU: Well, no, it mentions the horas tou peirasmou, the "hour of testing" or "hour of temptation". But even more than this, is the underlying assumption that "tribulation" must refer to some future period of time at or near the end of the age. Except Scripture doesn't actually say this.
ME: My Bible, Rev.3:10, "-----I will protect you from the time of Great Tribulation and temptation, which will come upon the world to test everyone alive." There's only one Great Tribulation that I know about which will come at the end of this age.
YOU: Let's pretend for a moment that that the churches do refer to church ages, even though there's no reason to believe this. But let's pretend for a moment that this idea could be true: Your entire assumption then is that we are living in the last hours of the Church, but there's no way you could possibly know this. So you are simply making that assumption.
ME: (Mat. 24:3), the Apostles asked Jesus, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of "your coming" and of the END OF THE AGE?" Rev.3:10, after it speaks about thr Great Tribulation, then v11 states, "I am coming soon." Scripture interprets Scripture.
YOU: But, and this is really important, there is no reason to believe the seven churches refer to different periods of ecclesiastical history. There is nothing in the text that would even hint at this. As such this is an interpretation without any basis in the text, it is pure imagination.
ME: Your first sentence may be true because I never bothered to parallel the other churches with history, but in the Philadelphia church there's much more than just a hint, when it speaks about the Great Tribulation, followed by Jesus' coming.
ME: John was prophesying ahead about this church. (Philadelphia)
YOU: This is an assumption you are making, on what basis do you make this assumption?
ME: (Rev.1:19), "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. Not on assumption but on Scripture.
ME: while we now have the advantage of looking back over the last 2000 years, as a result, we now know what season we are in, that is, the very last days.
YOU: This is in clear and explicit odds with Scripture, which tells us that it is not for us to know the times and seasons which God has prepared; and that no one can know the time of Christ's return and of the end.
ME: You are partly right, no one knows the day or hour of Christ's return, However, we most certainly should know the season. (Mat.24:32) "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. v33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Things = in Christ's discourse. Scripture interprets Scripture, not explicit odds with it.
ME: Mat. 24:3, the Apostles asked Jesus what will be the signs of His 2nd coming be and the END of the AGE? Jesus lists, deception by false teachers, wars, Nations against each other, famines, earthquakes, wickedness, loss of love, and the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world then, the END WILL COME. Then the born again believers are rapture out by God. (1Thes. 4:13) The Grace Age Ends
YOU: Re-read the passage. Jesus is explicitly clear that these things you list are NOT signs of the end. Jesus' warning here is that we not look at the world around us, seeing wars, rumors of wars, kingdoms rising against kingdoms, earthquakes, famines, and other natural disasters and think that we are at the end. Because we're not. Wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, disease, false prophets, false messiahs--these are not signs of the end. These are merely the birth pangs of a world broken and laboring under sin. We have had these things since the beginning, and will continue to see them right until the end.
ME Jesus begins His dialog with birth pains but continues to the many years later, that is, "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world then, the END WILL COME. which refers back to the question the Apostles asked Him earlier, 'what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
YOU: Do you think that there are more wars? More conflicts? More diseases? More famines? More false prophets? There's not. Anyone who bothers to study history can tell you this. There is nothing special about our day than from any past day. False prophets? Simon Magus, Montanus, Mani, Muhammad, etc.----- The Roman-Persian wars, the Wars with the Goths, the Islamic invasions of the Levant and North Africa, the Reconquista, the Crusades. And that's just a tiny handful of conflicts restricted to the Mediteranean etc.-------Natural disasters? How about the destruction of Pompeii with the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius? The 749 Galillee earthquake killed tens of thousands and reduced three whole cities to ruins. The 1138 Aleppo earthquake killed as many as 250,000 people etc.-------Diseases? The Plague of Justinian killed upwards of 100 million people. The Black Death alone wiped as much as 200 million people, over half of the entire population in Europe etc. ------ The rise and fall of empires and kingdoms? Rome? Gone. The Persian Empire? Gone. The Islamic Calphates? Gone. The Ottomans? etc. -----.This is history. It's been happening forever. It is not the end of the world, it's just what the world looks like.
ME: I shortened each of your above groups to save space. Yes, all of those things took place, however, you failed to mentioned the most important factor that Jesus said, which identifies the END of the AGE, is: "And this gospel kingdom will be preached in the whole world----to all nations and the END WILL COME. It's got to stop at some point in history. I suppose Jesus, who knew all what you posted would take place but again, He failed to mention them to save space, in the Bible.
ME: (Mat. 24:15) continues, He deals with the Jews (the abomination standing in the holy place) and people who missed the rapture. Then comes the Great Tribulation, plagues, sun is darkened, moon gives no light, heavenly bodies shaken, and the 2nd coming.
YOU. That already happened, in 70 AD. The Zealots in their bid for independence against the Romans took over the city of Jerusalem, entered into the Temple, slaughtered the priests, committed abominations in it, desecrating it. Then the Romans came and seized the city, slaughtering the Zealots, destroying the Temple in the process. The abomination that causes desolation happened two thousand years ago.
ME, Yes, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. "but the abomination that causes desolation---spoken by Daniel" which Jesus mentions as standing in the holy place, has not taken place yet. (Rev.13:14, 19:20) is the image of the beast that all were required to worship. In (Mat.24:16) Jesus said, when the Jews see this image, they are to flee to he mountains etc.. Today, in Israel, there are various Jewish groups preparing for the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple.
ME, Therefore, Rev.3:10, makes much sense and nails down the pre-tribe rapture. "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will keep you from the hour of trail that is going to come upon the WHOLE WORLD to TEST those who live on the earth."
YOU. So, like I already knew--you have no basis for what you are saying. You are ignoring the context of Scripture, denying the history of what has already transpired, and are working from baseless assumption.
ME, If you'd go back to the beginning and re-read this thread, you'll have to admit what you accuse me of "baseless assumptions,"I humbly say this, I've proved by the SCRIPTURES all of your errors.
YOU, This isn't a personal attack mind you. I used to believe as you do, because it's the only thing I knew. And it all sounds like it might almost make sense as long as you don't think too hard about it and don't let things like the Bible and history get in the way.
ME, Yes, what I believe still makes perfect sense to me per the Scriptures, you failed to convince me otherwise.
YOU, I want to challenge you to really take an honest look at the Scriptures here. Why do you believe the churches in Revelation refer to church ages? Why would you think this is the case? Does the text tell you this, if so, where?
ME, the church of Philadelphia indicates so. As I told you earlier I saw no need to parallel the other six churches in revelation to church history because the church of Philadelphia has proved to me its church age, per the Great Tribulation, and the 2nd coming of Christ mentioned in it. However, I'm certain that many others have already paralleled the other six churches to history. I'll check it out.
YOU, Why do you believe that the contents of the Revelation refer to the "end times"? Does the text tell you this? If so, where?
ME, if you are asking me to show you a written statement similar to this written in the book "readers beware the contents of this book refer to the end times," you'll not find it. However, when you take other Scriptures and things into consideration, we read that Jesus will return a second time, and when He steps onto Mt.Olives it will split in half (Zech 14:4). That could not have taken place before May 14, 1948, (Isa. 66:8) since Israel did not exist. But now it does. Next the Jews won back Jerusalem from the gentiles in the 1967 war (Luke 21:24). Now Jesus is causing all the trouble in the Mid-East countries to fight against Israel (Zech.12:2-3) If you watch the daily news you'll see this taken place slowly. Peace treaty negotiations has been going on for decades. Eventually, one will be made, but later the Jews will realize that they were deceived when the anti-Christ breaks it (1Thes.5:3) and sudden destruction.
YOU, Why do you believe that Jesus' warnings in the Olivet Discourse have to do with the end times? Does Jesus say these are signs of the end times? Or does He actually say just the opposite?
ME, No, Jesus does not say the opposite, In (Mat.24:3) the Apostles asked Jesus the signs of the END of the AGE, and Jesus in His discourse tells them when the end will come in v14. He then describes the troubles in v21, why wouldn't any reasonable person connect the dots and then realize that we are living in those END TIMES
YOU, I want you to try something: When you read the Bible, read what it says. Notice the things the text does say, but even more importantly, I want you to pay attention to what the text doesn't say. Then I want you to go and look to see how Christians have historically understood and interpreted the text. What do the ancient fathers say? What do the theologians and exegetes, both East and West, how do they read and interpret the text? How have Christians, historically, from the time of the Apostles onward, how have they read and understood the texts? Pay attention to where they are in agreement, and also take notice when and where they have differences of opinion.
ME, In my opinion, if one does what you describe here, he'll be a very confused person, since nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that we are to rely upon others for Biblical information such as the the church Fathers when they disagreed among themselves. For 400 years, they could not agree on infant baptism. When a person believes in the salvation message and is born again and NEXT step, receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, two separate things) he then can rely upon the Holy Spirit to teach him, the things that God wants him to know.
YOU, Because if what you think is in the Bible isn't actually in the Bible; and if no Christian at all in history ever believed these things, then don't you think that maybe that's indicative of a problem in how you are approaching the text? Because at that point the argument you have to make is why you are right, but every Christian before 1820 was wrong.
ME, you are apparently referring to Darby. But you don't know for certain that every Christian prior to Darby was wrong. It could very well be, that many believed in dispensationism but never wrote about it and it was Darby who investigated it and found it to be correct and then declared it to be true. To me, it makes much sense. Now lets reverse things, if Darby was wrong why is it that so many people still believe in his theology? Because of more population now, there are probably more people who subscribe to his theology now, than all the people combined who lived prior to 1830 who believed otherwise.
YOU, And please, don't go to websites that only offer mined quotes without any sourcing, any citations, and without any context. Look at the actual primary source material yourself as much as is possible.
ME, thirty five years ago, my church Pastor, told us, throw out your books, tapes, CD's, turn off the TV supposedly evangelists. Just pray and read your Bible, you'll not be confused and you'll also save some time and money. And do you know what? He was right! I did just that. Just out of curiosity, a short while ago, I turned on some TV evangelists, I could believe what I was seeing and hearing. THEY ARE AT WAR with one another, the cessationists vs, continueationist, Protestants vs, Catholics, tongues vs. no tongues and you name it. For me, at age 91 yrs. I'll continue to read my Bible and pray.
Blessings,
