Undecided on the Rapture Timing

[timothyu]

Yes... the "Soft" disclosure.. admitting, slowly, that which they outright denied and called people crazy for... in the 1950's..

Perhaps the Pentagon is repenting. (made myself laugh)

 

[Marilyn C]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Hi Justified...

Good to sort this question out. Now my view if pre-trib, and here are some reasons.

1. The Lord said we would reign with Him on His own throne, (Rev. 3: 21). Presently the Lord is at the right hand of the Father, but soon He will have His own throne/authority given by the Father and we will be with Him there.

2. We will judge the world system and fallen angels. Thus we need to be in that highest position with the Lord to do that. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

3. The Lord is the Head of His Body and when He has brought it to maturity then He will come and connect with us. (Eph. 4: 13 & Acts 3: 20 & 21)

 

[ewq1938]

Let's get back on topic to the rapture timing and drop the other discussions please. Off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[Timtofly]

OK, so the governments of the world all create this alien invasion and body snatching narrative to avoid saying it was the rapture, even though everyone in the world whether or not they are Christian has heard of the rapture. And all the news media, bloggers, and people who post to forums all get in line because everyone basically just trusts whatever the government tells them. And somehow body snatching aliens is a story that will calm the masses? That is your theory?

Satan would be the reptilian overlord, but that is Satan's version, not God's. Satan only gets 3.5 years, not even a full presidential term. How much damage can one being do in 3.5 years, even if he has been preparing for 2500 years? Could he plant a colony on Mars in 3.5 years? That is what he has been preparing for, or just wasting money, instead of taking care of the poor in poverty stricken areas of the world.

 

[timothyu]

Could he plant a colony on Mars in 3.5 years? That is what he has been preparing for

Actually that is the VP's department

 

[Timtofly]

Actually that is the VP's department

There will hardly be nations soon. Satan does not have a VP, but a FP. The 6th seal will change all of Satan's plans any ways. That is why it will be like a thief in the night and the Rapture will happen then. 2500 years of planning gone in a few seconds.

 

[timothyu]

What's more important? The rapture some hope comes in their lifetime to save their necks from dying, or the Kingdom to come

 

[BABerean2]

Peter put the whole event in one verse. The beginning as the thief in the night, the very end after the GWT, all will be dissolved. One cannot make Peter say anything but the beginning and end.

Paul only gives the beginning, and nothing else. Thus the church leaves at the beginning.

John is the only one who spreads it all out, but if one says the trumpets of John are the same trumpets of Paul, they are now in contradiction. I agree they agree. I do not accept some, who now, make them disagree to prove a point.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God. The fire also comes in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing. This is also found in Matthew 25:31-46, and John 5:27-30, and Revelation 11:18.

All of this happens on the day of His Second Coming, which is found below in the Book of Revelation. The book is not in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

Revelation 19
Revelation 16:15-16
Revelation 11:15-18

.



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[timothyu]

The book is not in chronological order.

Neither is the canon. Among other switches, Rev. was written before the gospel of John

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus said that the dead would be raised on the last day.

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:40

St. Paul tells us that the dead will be raised at Christ's Parousia, and at that time the end comes.

"But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power." - 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Christ's coming is in judgment of the living and the dead,

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead at His coming and of His kingdom" - 2 Timothy 4:1

The Lord's Parousia comes at a time no one knows,

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." - Matthew 24:36

His coming in judgment is without warning,

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37-39

So when are the dead raised? At Christ's coming.
When is Christ's coming? On the last day, which no one knows.

So Christ shall come in judgment, the dead shall be raised, Christ delivers all things over to the Father, and God makes all things new, world without end. That is what Scripture and the historic teaching of the Church says.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Timtofly]

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God. The fire also comes in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing. This is also found in Matthew 25:31-46, and John 5:27-30, and Revelation 11:18.

All of this happens on the day of His Second Coming, which is found below in the Book of Revelation. The book is not in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

Revelation 19
Revelation 16:15-16
Revelation 11:15-18

They have to overlap. It is about an event that now has less than 6.5 years. A lot of things happen. Most of the book is about a 3.5 year period when Satan has free reign to do just as he pleases. Not much rest if the church is going through that mess. That is why God says only 2 literal males will be the only witness. Since John wrote all this down, seems fitting he is one of the witnesses. He is alive today witnessing current events. Paul and Peter only wrote what God allowed them to write. The Holy Spirit brought John here to witness first hand.

 

[Timtofly]

What's more important? The rapture some hope comes in their lifetime to save their necks from dying, or the Kingdom to come

Listening to God is more important than doctrine or theology.

 

[ZNP]

Satan would be the reptilian overlord, but that is Satan's version, not God's. Satan only gets 3.5 years, not even a full presidential term. How much damage can one being do in 3.5 years, even if he has been preparing for 2500 years? Could he plant a colony on Mars in 3.5 years? That is what he has been preparing for, or just wasting money, instead of taking care of the poor in poverty stricken areas of the world.

Wow, I never read any of this in the Bible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wow, I never read any of this in the Bible.

It's fascinating what sorts of ideas people come up with when they just make things up.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Timtofly]

Wow, I never read any of this in the Bible.

You have not read Genesis 3? You have not read Daniel? You have not read 2 Thessalonians 2? You have not read Revelation? God calls Satan a serpent and dragon. Satan mocks God with alien reptile beings. Daniel claims Satan is at work by 500BC. Paul confirms Satan has been working and will keep working until the church is taken away. It is now 2020. Math and common sense. When God and the Lamb come in the 6th seal, all of Satan's deception will be unveiled. That is when the church is complete and those alive will be raptured to Paradise in one complete body. No where does it say Paradise will be emptied out onto the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

It's fascinating what sorts of ideas people come up with when they just make things up.

-CryptoLutheran

I am just a boring witness for God. I have heard stranger things from educated elite.

 

[timothyu]

That is when the church is complete and those alive will be raptured to Paradise in one complete body.

In other words when the 1000 years here is over and His Kingdom comes, those still living will be judged but not die first upon transition into the new Kingdom?

 

[jgr]

I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Every student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture delusionists.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture delusionists” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture delusionists.”

The pretrib rapture fallacy first appeared in the Christian Church in the 19th century.

It is a modernist fantasy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am just a boring witness for God. I have heard stranger things from educated elite.

Why should I believe that you have heard anything from God? Why should I trust you over the Bible? Why should I trust you over two thousand years of Christian teaching?

I get it, it probably feels good to think that one is very special and that they have some unique message from God or something. But I've been on the internet long enough to no longer be impressed by would-be prophets, seers, visionaries, dreamers, and various supposedly "very spiritual people". If I had a nickel for every "very spiritual person" I've spoken to, I'd be able to open my own coffee stand.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

Why should I believe that you have heard anything from God? Why should I trust you over the Bible? Why should I trust you over two thousand years of Christian teaching?

Good thing someone listened to Luther.