Do you believe a person must become physically circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved?
JLB
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Was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?
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Do you believe a person must become physically circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved?
JLB
In the context of the law of Moses, Sabbath was used and referred to the requirements imposed on the children of Israel to strictly observe the ritualistic mandates or be put to death.
Here are a few passages that describe the Sabbath requirements under the law of Moses —
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15
Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36
‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10
Do you believe the Church is to observe these Sabbath requirements today, under the New Covenant?
JLB
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yes.
And here is the "other" relevant text
Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Clearly they are both point to the same reason that the Sabbath is set apart, sanctified made holy , a binding obligation on mankind.
hence the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
and for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
A Bible details Soooooo incredibly obvious that even the sunday keeping scholarship admits to it.
=============
I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians - in fact for all mankind
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
And of course 7th day groups
Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists
(and 100's of others)
It works perfectly - because many on this forum unwittingly draw a line that denies so many Bible details - that even their OWN pro-sunday scholarship debunks it.
How was that not incredibly obvious?
On the contrary - I argue that when a Bible detail is sooooo incredibly obvious that BOTH sides of the debate admit to it... well "it just does not GET any easier than that".
details matter.
(Which is the point where this line of opposition to my post usually ends)
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Don't tell me that when God told Cain in Genesis 4 "SIN is at our door but you must master it" That God did not know what He was talking about....
Romans 5 says that SIN was in the world before the law was chiseled in stone. Turns out - God can speak without stone.
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Yes... we believe the Word of God -- as it turns out.
nice try.
He was under the LAW of God - consider the Bible.
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There is only one Law Giver, and Noah isn't Him. Can you please point out the lie Abraham told?
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This wasn't for me but I will address it anyway. Your question is vague so I will bring some context.
God, in HIS Word written for my admonition, already addressed physical circumcision.
Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Jer. 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Rom. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, (Stubborn and Stiffnecked) thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
So circumcision of the heart is most definitely a requirement to be saved. Circumcision of the Flesh, not so much. As Paul says;
1 Cor. 7: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
As for "keeping the Law of Moses" to be saved. Why do I need saved? It is because I have Transgressed God's Commandments, YES? I have sin. So before I can be saved, this sin has to be dealt with or atoned for, because God says the "soul that sins shall die".
What does the "Law of Moses" say about how sins are forgiven? If I sin, what does Moses say to do?
Lev. 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation. 15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD. 16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation: 17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
So do I believe we are justified by "Works of the LAW" of Moses? No, Levites are no longer my High Priest as it was for the Pharisees that didn't believe the SEED had Come.
We are under a NEW and BETTER Priesthood, Jesus washed my Transgressions of God's Law away with HIS OWN Blood. I no longer "receive the Law of God" through the Levitical Priesthood given Moses by God "Til the Seed should come", Jesus Himself, not only atones for my sins with HIS Own Blood, but also writes the Laws of God on my heart so that I will not forget them again..
So in the correct context, I do not believe cutting myself, or sprinkling turtle dove or cows blood on a rock saves me. But in Paul's time there was an entire religion which taught just that.
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Gentiles were not circumcised that kept the Sabbath - in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-5 , Acts 18:4-9 etc
There is no requirement that gentiles be circumcised in OT or NT
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Yes, it seems the Sabbath of God is a "sign of Circumcision of the heart".
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Amen!
Rom 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
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ralliann
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No.
my point about the Greek and Hebrew was this......
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested <07673> on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested <07673> from all his work which God created and made. {created … : Heb. created to make }
Ge 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease <07673>. {While … : Heb. As yet all the days of the earth }
Ex 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest <07673> from their burdens.
Ex 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away <07673> leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Ex 16:30 So the people rested <07673> on the seventh day.
Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest <07673>: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested <07673>, and was refreshed.
the seventh day in Genesis is not shabbath but shabath as you pointed out. which is continued to mean rest. We know what Hebrews says about this.
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You say "no" then post a text that says "yes"??
Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
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You say "no" then post a text that says "yes"??
Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
The text says "yes" ... and you say "no"?? again??
On the contrary - Ex 20:11 specifically points to Genesis 2:1-4
Ex 20:11
10 the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)...
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
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Here is what we find in the New Covenant
Jer 31:31-34 "THIS is the NEW Covenant... I will write My Law on their heart"
Unchanged in the NT
Heb 8:6-12 "THIS is the NEW Covenant... I will write My Law on their heart"
Mal 3: 6 “For I, the Lord, do not change; "
Heb 13: : 8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
No wonder then for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
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But the Work described that the Sabbath Rest involved is exactly the same Word.
Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (As God did in the creation.)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Made this Day Holy)
So I understand that God's Holy Sabbath has been rejected despised and polluted for many, many centuries by the religious men of this earth, and today it is still despised and polluted and rejected. There is no evidence that any of the examples of the faithful in the Bible rejected, despised or polluted God's Holy Sabbath. Jesus didn't. His Apostles didn't.
We are told to "Walk even as Jesus walked", and to be Holy, not holy by our definition, or the Popes, or some other religious voice in the garden. But Holy as GOD/Jesus are Holy.
Lev. 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. 3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Given that the Holy Scriptures teach that the Christ created all things before becoming a man and dwelling among us, it is therefore evident that the 7th Day HOLY Rest of the Lord, is truly the "Sabbath of the Lord our God". As it is written;
Lev. 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Not Hebrew, not Jewish, but these are the Christ's Feasts) 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Therefore Jesus is truly the "Lord of the Sabbath".
I understand that "many" will simply not enter into the Rest of God, not here on earth, or in HIS Final Rest when this mortal shall have put on immortality. They will create their own Righteousness and refuse to submit to the Righteousness of God, as the God of Abraham preaching folks of Paul's time did. Jesus said these offences must come.
But If I can't trust the God of the Bible to define what is Holy for me, then who then can I trust?
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God (Of the Bible) in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
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ralliann
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This is the last time I will bring this up because you all are ignoring it. It is about the "REST".
the Israelites had not yet come to long after the seventh day Sabbath. After they had wondered forty years in the desert.
Moses spoke of a rest.
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.
And more specifically the book of Hebrews speaks of the rest which Joshau gave them also was not the rest.
Jos 1:13 Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land.
Jos 1:15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD’S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.
Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
Hebrews is not about the "Saturday" rest given Israel in exodus. It is about the rest spoken of by David which is another day, which corresponds to the rest spoken of by Joshua and Moses in their inheritance in the land.
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klutedavid
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Funny reply. I am referring to the laws that God gave humanity through Noah.
Abraham misled the Egyptians by claiming that Sarah was his sister, when in fact, Sarah was Abraham's wife.
Genesis 12:18-19
Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her and go.'
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4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
There is more to Hebrews 3 and 4 than a promised future rest for future man. Most important, why those who were first given the Gospel didn't enter it. I am not ignoring the reference to the future rest, but I am mortal man, I am sill walking in this evil time. God has created a day of rest for me, as Jesus declares, just as HE created a day of rest for those mortal men HE wrote of as examples for me.
It is all tied together, at least according to the Bible.
I'm not sure how you can say that reference to the 7th day is not about the 7th day.
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klutedavid
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All Abraham's offspring were circumcised.
That means of course that Ishmael was circumcised. Yet we know that Ishmael's offspring would not have been Hebrews or even a Jew. Ishmael would have definitely been classed as a Gentile and was not derived from the lineage of his step brother Isaac.
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