How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free also destroyed an entire generation of Israeli from entering in to the promised land!

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. - 1 Corinthians 10:11

Unfortunately Freewill is still with us.... Therefore warnings must be issued...

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: - Colossians 1

1Reformedman said:

No, it denotes a fallen man's spiritual inability. The lost one cannot please God so the claim to free will choice unto salvation as a spiritually dead one is BOGUS. Its also a pagan concept that crept into the RCC long ago.

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Nope. Here is....

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

God threatened the city of Nineveh with judgment.


God changed His mind and He did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He had seen that they turned from their evil and wicked ways.


While many verses refute Calvinism, these 5 verses above in Jonah 3 is the achilles heel to Calvinism. This is a major story in the Bible! Yet, Calvinists do not seem to realize what this story really says here. I am wondering: How do Calvinists explain these verses in the "Story of Jonah"?

If God enables or regenerates man so as to grant him the ability to repent (2 Timothy 2:25), then how could God threaten the city of Nineveh with Judgment and Wrath, and then change His mind on that Judgment as soon as they repented and turned from their evil and wicked ways? Was God's threat on the city of Nineveh just a useless scare tactic? What purpose did God need Jonah to preach to the city of Nineveh at all if God could just convict everyone of their sin and get them to repent? Does it not seem contradictory of God to threaten a city with Judgment if He was just going to later regenerate them so as to grant them repentance later?

The story of Jonah does not make sense in the world of Calvinism if you say they are the chosen damned or if they are the chosen elect who are saved.

For if the Ninevites were the saved elect than the way Calvinists describe God it makes it appear like He must have a memory problem because He was about to destroy His own elect. Either that or He was simply lying in the fact that there was no real Judgment coming. He was just using a false scare tactic (Which would be dishonest).

If the Ninevites were the damned (God's supposedly chosen wicked), then how were they able to repent? Why did He spare them if they were wicked and evil and they repented?

Either way the story of Jonah makes no sense in the world of Calvinism.

If Calvinism was true, the following scenario would have taken place in the story of Jonah.

Jonah comes to the city of Nineveh, and says to them, "I am here to tell you what God is going to do in you already. You are going to believe and repent and turn from your wicked ways."

There would be no mention of the Judgment. Just how they were going to believe.

God brings salvation to the Ninevites and opens their hearts.
Then the Ninevites repented and turned from their evil and wicked ways.

But that is not how things played out.
It was the reverse.

The Ninevites were under danger of Judgment whereby they were actually going to perish like the gourd. This real threat to their lives led to their repentance and forsaking of their evil ways.
When God seen they had turned away from their sinful ways, that is when God decided to no longer to bring Judgment that would overthrow the city and make them to perish.

-57 said:

Biblehubs parallel translations.

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Thank you. Read them.

Though, in any translation I have read there, the outcome is the same. Agrippa used his free will of choice to not become a Christian. Like you said, experiences could be a factor. Maybe he wanted the Jews to like him over following Christ because you clearly see Festus was openly hostile. One this is for sure though, Demas who was with Paul, forsook Paul because "he loved the present world". That statement could mean a number of things. In any case of those, Demas chosen to be a slave of sin.

Romans 6:15-23

Even in parallel translations on this scripture, they all say that we "yield ourselves" or "offer ourselves" whatever the translation, it indeed shows choice.

Dave L said:

The carnal mind (unregenerate) cannot understand scripture.

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Do you think Arminians understand scripture given their interpretation is different than yours? If not, do you think they are "unregenerate?" Thanks

MDC said:

And so am I

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Then you should know that the main difference between Arminianism and Calvinism has to do with one's ability to believe. Arminians believe sinners have the natural moral ability to choose christ before God regenerates them. Calvinists /Monergists believe God regenerates the individual before the choice is able to be made.

Mark Quayle said:

Dave L is not saying we do not act or decide, BH.

You seem to not get what he is saying: The lost, DEAD "in their trespasses and sins", are UNABLE to do anything good in and of themselves. Even if they "believe" and "obey", it is not real, unless it is God working in them. Compliance is not the same thing as obedience.

I could say that by comparison, the human does nothing because of the greatness and strength of God in accomplishing this task, but it is more than that. It is not because we are not strong enough --it is because we are UNABLE.

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Mark-what do you mean by "Even if they "believe" and "obey," it is not real...?" They are believing wrongly somehow? Thanks

Emsmom1 said:

Mark-what do you mean by "Even if they "believe" and "obey," it is not real...?" They are believing wrongly somehow? Thanks

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An example of such belief is given in scripture. They may believe the facts, because the facts make perfectly good sense, either by reasoning, or, like the demons believe, by experience. They may even have an intense worshipful response (admiration, perhaps) to the greatness of the Almighty Creator and still not have salvific faith. It is even possible to reap some of the benefits of one's application to the truth, yet still not belong to God.

There is no end of people who think they are basically good. They can comply with all the commands they want, but maybe one: to love the Lord your God with your whole being (but maybe even that they think they have), but compliance is not the same thing as obedience.

The whole mindset of the person is wrong, unless God has renewed his mind. (And even that needs constant work.)

1Reformedman said:

No, it denotes a fallen man's spiritual inability. The lost one cannot please God so the claim to free will choice unto salvation as a spiritually dead one is BOGUS. Its also a pagan concept that crept into the RCC long ago.

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Amen, bro. Well put. Thank you.
"Without me you can do nothing."

I am glad there are others here, besides me, who does not like the Calvin guy. As well as Martin Luther, I would have recommended the whole generation not to become worse people than the Catholic before them.

Bible Highlighter said:

Nope. Here is....

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

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Again. We don't teach that man does not choose. Nor even that his choices do not have real, even eternal, consequences. Only that he will always choose according to his nature. Even when doing what others may consider "good", it is corrupt, and not obedience. You have given examples from the Bible of those who have chosen or can choose. So what? Only God is good.

Mark Quayle said:

An example of such belief is given in scripture. They may believe the facts, because the facts make perfectly good sense, either by reasoning, or, like the demons believe, by experience. They may even have an intense worshipful response (admiration, perhaps) to the greatness of the Almighty Creator and still not have salvific faith. It is even possible to reap some of the benefits of one's application to the truth, yet still not belong to God.

There is no end of people who think they are basically good. They can comply with all the commands they want, but maybe one: to love the Lord your God with your whole being (but maybe even that they think they have), but compliance is not the same thing as obedience.

The whole mindset of the person is wrong, unless God has renewed his mind. (And even that needs constant work.)

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Mark-Thanks for your reply. I am a new believer and I am wondering if you can define "salvific faith" for me? The verse about even the demons believing always throws me because somewhere else in the bible it says "Believe and ye shall be saved-" but clearly the demons aren't saved, right?

rockytopva said:

I am glad there are others here, besides me, who does not like the Calvin guy. As well as Martin Luther, I would have recommended the whole generation not to become worse people than the Catholic before them.

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by the way, your John Wesley quote --even JWesley didn't feel confident that he himself was saved. My confidence comes from knowing God will indeed complete whatever HE has begun. What I have committed unto Him against that day is only valid if HE did it in me, not according to my silly strength of will or emotional fervor or integrity of decision or intellectual understanding.

Bible Highlighter said:

Nope. Here is....

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Click to expand...

Joshua 24:15 KJV -Joshua 24 is about covenantal faithfulness and renewal, not salvation. Notice Joshua told them they couldn't serve God but as for him and his house, they would. This verse is about choosing between two false gods not a choice between a false god and God.
Matthew 11:28 KJV - is a command. No command contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it.
John 7:17 KJV - IF anyone wills to do his will. The lost have no desire to do his will. They cannot understand spiritual things 1 Cor. 2:14 thus they could never understand the need to do God's will.
John 7:37 KJV - If anyone desires... again lost ones don't desire God.
Acts 2:38 KJV - again a command no command contains in it your ability to obey it.
Acts 3:19 KJV - again a command
Acts 16:31 KJV -Truth statement. Its says nothing about who will ever believe. It says whoever does A (believes) will obtain B (be saved).
Acts 17:30 KJV - again a command.
Revelation 22:17 KJV - whoever will let him take of the living water freely. ONLY A SAVED one can do so. Again the lost don't desire God so it logically follows they would have no desire to want to drink from the living water. This is a true statement, not a free will unto salvation verse.
Genesis 4:7 KJV - God speaking to Cain and telling him a spiritual truth. This isnt not a free will unto salvation verse. Its obvious Cain believed God existed for he brought him a sacrifice of his own hands and God didn't except it. Yet God accepted Abel's because it was a blood sacrifice. This isn't about free will unto salvation but about obeying God when he grants you the ability to do so. All Cain had to do to have his offer accepted was to offer a blood sacrifice like his brother did but he offered the sacrifice of his own work instead. Thus salvation isn't by works, like the bogus claim to a free will choice before regeneration.
Luke 13:34 NLT -
In Luke 13:34 (also Matthew's account in Matt. 23:37) there is no hint in these verses that God's divine decree can be successfully resisted fully and finally just because someone is "unwilling." The Bible is clear on the teaching that, if someone is "unwilling," they are acting according to their depraved nature to hate God (John 3:18-20; 7:7; 15:8, 23; Eph. 2:1-3; Rom. 1:30; 8:3-8; John 12:40; Romans 9:18, 11:7), and if someone is willing, it is because God makes him so (John 6:44, 65). No one that God makes willing can stay away (John 6:37). God's grace for the elect is irresistible!

Let's look at the verses in question:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

First, we must ask what is meant by "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem." Without taking into account the rest of the context of Matthew 23 or Luke 13, it looks as though Christ is addressing every person in Jerusalem. However, the context does not bear witness to this. Note that Jerusalem here is said to "kill the prophets and stone those who are sent." Who are these that have done these atrocious crimes?

As suggested by The Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible, this is akin to the parable of Christ in Matthew 21:33-46 which is based on Isaiah 5:1-7 and probably reflects Psalm 80:8-18. Here there is a landowner who is God (Matt 23:33). The vineyard is the Kingdom of God (Matt 23:43). The servants are the prophets who were beaten, stoned, and killed (Matt 23:35-36) by the tenants. The son, of course, is Jesus (Matt 23:37-39). The tenants are the Jews opposed to the prophets and Jesus (Matt 23:34-40). They murder the son just as they mistreated the prophets of the past. The tenants have done these atrocious crimes.

The context of our text parallels this. In Matthew 23:2 Jesus begins with his own explanation: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees (tenants) sit in Moses' seat." Then in Matthew 23:13 and following, Christ begins with the "woes" of the leaders of Jerusalem and ends in Matthew 23:23 with, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" Thus, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem" refers to the leaders of Jerusalem (again, referring to the tenants of Matt. 21).

Also, note in our two texts above that Jesus states he desires to have gathered the "children," not all "Jerusalem." It is not God's elect resisting, rather it is the seed of the serpent (the leaders of Jerusalem, the tenants) waging war with God's servants (Gen. 3; Rev. 12), whom Christ is gathering. This "Jerusalem" was temporarily preventing the children from being gathered. It is these unregenerate ones that are resisting the proclamation of the Gospel because it is in their nature to do so (John 12:40; Romans 9:18; 11:7; Acts 7:51). How were they preventing this? By killing the prophets and stoning them, etc. They even crucified the very Son of God!

In this passage, Jesus is wrapping up his final rebuke of judgment against the leaders (seed of the serpent) who opposed him (the seed of the woman). They were trying to keep the children of Jerusalem (chicks) from coming to salvation; but, as Matthew 23:38 states, their house will be left desolate to them. In other words, as much as the leaders of Jerusalem desire to prevent the elect of Israel from being gathered to Christ, he will gather them despite their resistance.
These verses, then, show God's irresistible grace and his sovereignty rather than in any way challenging it.
Calvinism and Matthew 23:37?

Mark Quayle said:

by the way, your John Wesley quote --even JWesley didn't feel confident that he himself was saved. My confidence comes from knowing God will indeed complete whatever HE has begun. What I have committed unto Him against that day is only valid if HE did it in me, not according to my silly strength of will or emotional fervor or integrity of decision or intellectual understanding.

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To rightfully quote the story....

John Wesley was almost in despair after a disasterous trip to America and loosing his dad. He did not have the faith to continue to preach. When death stared him in the face, he was fearful and found little comfort in his religion. To Peter Böhler, a Moravian friend, he confessed his growing misery and decision to give up the ministry. Böhler counseled otherwise. "Preach faith till you have it," he advised. "And then because you have it, you will preach faith." On May 24th, 1738 he opened his Bible at about five in the morning and came across these words, "There are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, even that ye should partakers of the divine nature." He read similar words in other places. That evening he reluctantly attended a meeting in Aldersgate. Someone read from Luther's Preface to the Epistle to Romans. About 8:45 p.m. "while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death."

Emsmom1 said:

Mark-Thanks for your reply. I am a new believer and I am wondering if you can define "salvific faith" for me? The verse about even the demons believing always throws me because somewhere else in the bible it says "Believe and ye shall be saved-" but clearly the demons aren't saved, right?

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Right. There are two kinds of faith, two kinds of belief, two kinds of people. The one person no more or less deserving of God's mercy than another, but only given faith by God himself for God's own purposes. "Believe" doesn't come by itself as defined by any dictionary. "Believe in" or "..on" (in some versions), is a result of being regenerated, and the heart's response to God. It cannot be undone, in spite of feelings or appearances. (I am not saying a person cannot fool themselves about it, though.)

My confidence and joy, in the end of thinking on the matter, and extreme satisfaction, is in knowing that God will accomplish everything that he set out to do. My feeling at present is that even if I have fooled myself that I am in the faith, yet I KNOW that God will do whatever HE has in mind --and that for his own sake.

MDC said:

And so am I

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Ok then I apologize for the synergist remark. I was a free will proponent (a dispensational arminian--weird I know) for 20 years until I dropped all of my presuppositions and let the Holy Spirit teach me.

Dave L said:

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins

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That is one convoluted sentence. And total nonsense according to scripture. The order is always belief first, then eternal life.
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."