How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

[Sketcher]

Free will =/= Pelagianism.

 

[Acts2:38]

What you didn't include is why a person such as the king or anyone else would reject the gospel.

If you read the part where I mentioned "Demas and loving the present world", Then yes, i did answer you. Are your reading ALL of what I say or just skimming through?

Edit in : 2 Timothy 4:10

Then there is Demas that forsook Paul because he loved the present world.

It seems obvious that a person will hear the gospel and then base the decision on their life experience. King Agrippa had a reason to say no. Something in his life caused him to reject Paul's message.

Okay....yes it is obvious, you seem to be agreeing with me? The point is, it still is a choice made, no "if" "ands" "buts" about it.

 

[rockytopva]

Another Calvin thread! Its like... How can we complicate the salvation? If we complicate it with 100's of volumes over time maybe people will quit getting saved! I would just assume taking a look inside one of them thar baskets!

 

[JacksBratt]

Free will is part of salvation. If you have it it is because God saved you.

All souls have free will to choose salvation or reject it. That is the foundational free will.

 

[MDC]

Another Calvin thread! Its like... How can we complicate the salvation? If we complicate it with 100's of volumes over time maybe people will quit getting saved! I would just assume taking a look inside one of them thar baskets!

Not complicated as you may see it. More like separating truth from error. The doctrine of libertarian free will is Pelagianism which is anti grace and anti gospel as you can see with all these threads

 

[MDC]

All souls have free will to choose salvation or reject it. That is the foundational free will.

Unless you have power power to change your nature you are not free. Your will is bound by your nature. To rest in Christ ones nature must be born anew

 

[Mark Quayle]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

I think the offer is real, and to all, and valid, but they "freely" WILL NOT TO believe. Every one of them. There are many that believe, but are not of the sheep, because their belief is only emotional, or theoretical, or willed in some sense that has nothing to do with the Faith that is the result of Regeneration. The so-called "acceptance of the offer" by the regenerated is the inevitable response of the changed heart, the natural emotional, intellectual and willed activity of the true Believer.

I wish I could find a way to express the incapacity of the unregenerate to do anything of substance. Without God, we can do nothing. With God, it is him doing it, no matter how completely involved --even violently involved-- we are in our decisions and feelings, etc. When we do God's will, it is HIM working in us to do according to his good purpose. That includes the heart's response to the Gospel.

 

[DennisTate]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

This is very informative because I personally did not even remember one of those names, (although I do suspect that I may have read or heard of Pelagius perhaps thirty or forty years ago), anyway....... I am on a very different page...........

I believe that free will is an astonishingly powerful force that can alter the space time continuum and usher in a different time line but it is kind of complicated and it will help if we will read some String Theory which is background information for understanding the relatively new Multuverse Theory that can be tweaked to fit nicely with Ezekiel 37
X Revelation 20
X Romans 11
X Matthew 4
X Matthew 5
X Matthew 6
X Matthew 7
and of course the entire Jewish and Christian Bible really.

This blog of mine could be helpful because there are quotations there on String Theory that are in high school English:
www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

and this discussion may be the clearest discussion that I ever wrote on this topic:

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Another Calvin thread! Its like... How can we complicate the salvation? If we complicate it with 100's of volumes over time maybe people will quit getting saved! I would just assume taking a look inside one of them thar baskets!

It is because of the dead corpse that God alone can make the motion to save; call it first move if that comforts you more than to hear that God does the whole work, but it is God yanking us up out of the grave that is salvation. It is not that it is too big a job for us --it is that it is an impossible job for us.

Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/21/82/442182cbb51b3608d769b8d8fb5abcef.jpg

 

[Mark Quayle]

In Calvinism there is no such thing as.... "should believe."
In fact, this verse should not be in our Bible because John says that we are given a commandment to BELIEVE in Jesus.

Calvinism teaches that ALL SHOULD Believe, but that only the regenerated will believe.

 

[JacksBratt]

Unless you have power power to change your nature you are not free. Your will is bound by your nature. To rest in Christ ones nature must be born anew

I'm sorry, but this, to me, sounds all too churchy.....

It's simple. Not complicated. We are given the intelligence to understand the right and wrong of this world. It is written in our heart. We are given the free will to choose to do wrong... and we do... do wrong... by choice.


We are also given the free will to choose to admit this wrong or... deny it.

We are given the free will to care whether we do wrong or not care....

It's an attitude based on our pride.

We can also choose to have an attitude of humbleness, the opposite of pride, and admit that we are sinners, due to the wrongs that we have chosen to do.

We have the gospel that tells us that we cannot do anything of our own account that will keep us from being punished for the wrong we did.

We then have the choice to choose to believe it.... choose to accept it... choose to humbly admit it to our savior and accept His work and His work only... to pardon us.

You can choose to accept Christ
You can choose to reject Christ


We are born with free will and live as Christians with free will as well.

It never ends.

We are not droids or robotic skin covered puppets. Ever.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've already explained it.
If you do not see it after my showing it to you, then you never going to get it unless God opens your eyes to the truth on this, friend.

Dave L is not saying we do not act or decide, BH.

You seem to not get what he is saying: The lost, DEAD "in their trespasses and sins", are UNABLE to do anything good in and of themselves. Even if they "believe" and "obey", it is not real, unless it is God working in them. Compliance is not the same thing as obedience.

I could say that by comparison, the human does nothing because of the greatness and strength of God in accomplishing this task, but it is more than that. It is not because we are not strong enough --it is because we are UNABLE.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm sorry, but this, to me, sounds all too churchy.....

It's simple. Not complicated. We are given the intelligence to understand the right and wrong of this world. It is written in our heart. We are given the free will to choose to do wrong... and we do... do wrong... by choice.


We are also given the free will to choose to admit this wrong or... deny it.

We are given the free will to care whether we do wrong or not care....

It's an attitude based on our pride.

We can also choose to have an attitude of humbleness, the opposite of pride, and admit that we are sinners, due to the wrongs that we have chosen to do.

We have the gospel that tells us that we cannot do anything of our own account that will keep us from being punished for the wrong we did.

We then have the choice to choose to believe it.... choose to accept it... choose to humbly admit it to our savior and accept His work and His work only... to pardon us.

You can choose to accept Christ
You can choose to reject Christ


We are born with free will and live as Christians with free will as well.

It never ends.

We are not droids or robotic skin covered puppets. Ever.

Jack, in reality I don't think anyone denies we can freely choose, or freely reject, the Gospel. We say what we do to get across a more plain notion of how the human is not sovereign, and God is.

If you want simplicity, great, but remember we have several centuries of false mindset/ worldview into which we are born and raised. There was a time, I think, when believers thanked God for EVERYTHING, and did not think themselves capable apart from God.

We are trying to expose that self-importance of the human in the matter of the Gospel as the heresy it is, and to make plain the principle of God's goodness to undeserving mankind, as it is in the Gospel and all of life.

 

[JacksBratt]

Jack, in reality I don't think anyone denies we can freely choose, or freely reject, the Gospel. We say what we do to get across a more plain notion of how the human is not sovereign, and God is.

If you want simplicity, great, but remember we have several centuries of false mindset/ worldview into which we are born and raised. There was a time, I think, when believers thanked God for EVERYTHING, and did not think themselves capable apart from God. We are trying to expose that self-importance of the human in the matter of the Gospel as the heresy it is, and to make plain the principle of God's goodness to undeserving mankind, as it is in the Gospel and all of life.

That's all well and good.. However, the OP is talking about "free will".

I find what you are saying, to be more in regards to where the goodness in people comes from.

By the way, are we not to be thankful for all things?

1 Thessalonians 5:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Maybe this is what you are trying to say.. I don't know. Sometimes I get confused as to the point people are trying to make.

To me, again, this is a different topic than "free will"

 

[Mark Quayle]

What happens when God regenerates someone?

They are raised up from the dead. Born again. New heart, New mind, New sight. Drinking from never-ending fountain of living water. They become a new person.

 

[-57]

may you direct me to them? which versions I mean. Because KJV and whatever version you mention are in clear contradiction even when I look at the Greek meanings.

Biblehubs parallel translations.

 

[chilehed]

God gives us the grace to be able to make a truly free decision to bind ourselves to him. That's what faith is: an act of the will by which we freely adhere to God, who has revealed himself to us. You appear to be falsely pitting grace against faith.

 

[-57]

Arminianism and Calvinism teach two different gospels, two different Gods and two different Christs that are completely opposites of one another. The latter is no doubt Gods truth according to scriptures

I'm not willing to go that far.

 

[1Reformedman]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

What's interesting with Pelagius' argument is that if he were correct that it is only through habit that one becomes sinful then Kind David would have been utterly wrong when he said that he was conceived as a sinner. Some people today erroneously assert that David's mother conceived him in sin (iniquity) as if she had sex out of wedlock or some other silly fable yet she had sex with David's father to whom she was married. So it wasn't sinful to conceive him because the marriage bed is not defiled.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's all well and good.. However, the OP is talking about "free will".

I find what you are saying, to be more in regards to where the goodness in people comes from.

By the way, are we not to be thankful for all things?

1 Thessalonians 5:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Maybe this is what you are trying to say.. I don't know. Sometimes I get confused as to the point people are trying to make.

To me, again, this is a different topic than "free will"

What I said had to do with the way we address the topic of free will. Some of us deny free will altogether because of the false power it has been given. Others (like me) admit to free will, in that decision and choice are genuine and have real results. But none of us (Reformers, Calvinists) as far as I know, admit to the notion that our will is sovereign above the work and will of God. The notion is ludicrous.

As for free will, then, no, the dead in sin are incapable of doing anything in the realm of reality where God acts. He must do it for us. And when he does, we are new creatures, no longer dead in sin. The dead ALWAYS choose death, rejecting the Gospel. The living are given freedom from the "old man" so that they can choose Christ.

You seem to think that when one chooses Christ, that the decision is real by the simple genuineness of free will. The dead are not capable of that choice, but of a caricature of it only. It is false. Only God can make it real.