How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

[Dave L]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

 

[section9+1]

Geppetto was a puppet master up until the strings were cut. Then he became a father. Pinocchio remained a puppet until the strings were cut. Then he became a son and moved himself. The most benevolent puppet master in the world is and always will be a puppet master regardless of any good intentions. If we cannot choose, we remain puppets regardless of how well we are treated. Not even God can avoid that.

 

[Aussie Pete]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin. So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Nichols, L. A., Mather, G. A., & Schmidt, A. J. (2006). In Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions (p. 432). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

I won't argue the "free will" definition. However, I do not agree with the premise that free will necessarily destroys faith in Christ. Most unchurched people have no idea what free will means and could care less. If they are convicted of their sin, if they accept Christ and His finished work on the cross, they are saved. That's my testimony, along with countless others.

The reality is that the will only becomes totally free once we go to be with the Lord. While we live in the body we are limited by the self of the soul. The will should become less encumbered as we go on in the Lord. Holiness perfection is not achievable in this life.

 

[Dave L]

I won't argue the "free will" definition. However, I do not agree with the premise that free will necessarily destroys faith in Christ. Most unchurched people have no idea what free will means and could care less. If they are convicted of their sin, if they accept Christ and His finished work on the cross, they are saved. That's my testimony, along with countless others.

The reality is that the will only becomes totally free once we go to be with the Lord. While we live in the body we are limited by the self of the soul. The will should become less encumbered as we go on in the Lord. Holiness perfection is not achievable in this life.

They see the gospel as law. And law cannot save.

 

[Aussie Pete]

They see the gospel as law. And law cannot save.

Agree 100% with that. Plenty of Christians think that they are saved by grace so that they must live by law. It's spiritual schizophrenia

 

[-57]

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

It is pretty ironic....Arminians are saved and don't fully understand how they became saved.

 

[-57]

Geppetto was a puppet master up until the strings were cut. Then he became a father. Pinocchio remained a puppet until the strings were cut. Then he became a son and moved himself. The most benevolent puppet master in the world is and always will be a puppet master regardless of any good intentions. If we cannot choose, we remain puppets regardless of how well we are treated. Not even God can avoid that.

I have no problem being a puppet if God is pulling the strings.

 

[section9+1]

I have no problem being a puppet if God is pulling the strings.

Did your will say that or did God's will say that?

 

[-57]

Did your will say that or did God's will say that?

It's hard to tell.

 

[section9+1]

It's hard to tell.

I didn't know you had one.

 

[-57]

I didn't know you had one.

Had what?

 

[section9+1]

Had what?

A will that made you accountable.

 

[1213]

... But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life....

I think it is good to notice also these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[Dave L]

I think it is good to notice also these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Where's free will in any of this? Aren't these good works the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[Al Touthentop]

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

Free Will is an effect of salvation. Before salvation the will is enslaved to sin.

No it isn't. What enslaves a person is the ideas he willingly presents himself to serve as Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote:

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

Paul is a HERETIC! Here he says that your slavery was by your own volition and that even AFTER being saved, you have to voluntarily, of your own free will, become a slave to righteousness. He's talking to saved people and he says that before they were saved, they presented themselves, of their own free will, to lawlessness.

So those claiming free will are in fact claiming a level of salvation exists in all apart from atonement. And that they must complete their own salvation through obedience. This is basically the position Pelagius held.

You're not making any sense. Atonement or remission is salvation from past sin. How could a man by any act of free will accomplish that? He couldn't. But God could and did and he gave us the commands by which we could get the benefit of remission. That is what grace is. It is the giving of the commands. It isn't ONLY that, but it is grace. And we, Paul writes, present ourselves willingly to obey those commands.

Pelagianism. The name is derived from its chief proponent, Pelagius (ca. 354/60–ca. 418/20), who, in opposition to Augustine, argued that human nature is not utterly depraved after the Fall, but rather is in a state of moral neutrality. It is only through habit that one becomes sinful, and one may exercise human will to surmount sin. Pelagius further taught that one may take the first step toward salvation apart from divine grace. Pelagianism was condemned as heresy in the fourth century, and Augustine’s doctrines of the Fall and original sin were embraced as the »orthodox teaching.

Sounds like Pelagius actually read his bible.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

In view of this, many skirt the charges of heresy by claiming Grace offers heaven to all who choose to believe. But in reality, there is no offer. Jesus preaches (announces) whoever believes already has eternal life.

And your view is more important than God's and his inspired writers, why?

But here’s some good news. People who choose to believe already believe (have eternal life) or they would not choose to believe. They would look away enjoying their sins.

Believe what exactly? You know, preaching the doctrine of men is to enjoy one's sin.

 

[Dave L]

No it isn't. What enslaves a person is the ideas he willingly presents himself to serve as Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote:

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

Paul is a HERETIC! Here he says that your slavery was by your own volition and that even AFTER being saved, you have to voluntarily, of your own free will, become a slave to righteousness. He's talking to saved people and he says that before they were saved, they presented themselves, of their own free will, to lawlessness.



You're not making any sense. Atonement or remission is salvation from past sin. How could a man by any act of free will accomplish that? He couldn't. But God could and did and he gave us the commands by which we could get the benefit of remission. That is what grace is. It is the giving of the commands. It isn't ONLY that, but it is grace. And we, Paul writes, present ourselves willingly to obey those commands.




Sounds like Pelagius actually read his bible.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"



And your view is more important than God's and his inspired writers, why?



Believe what exactly? You know, preaching the doctrine of men is to enjoy one's sin.

Choosing to believe turns the gospel into law and grace into works.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Choosing to believe turns the gospel into law and grace into works.

Show me the scripture that says that belief turns the gospel into law.

 

[Dave L]

Show me the scripture that says that belief turns the gospel into law.

Grace has no conditions to meet. If it does it changes into law.

 

[-57]

A will that made you accountable.

accountable for what?

 

[-57]

Free-will....there is a difference between having the ability to choose Jesus as ones Lord and Savior (salvation) and choosing which pair of sox to wear that day.