Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

Sam91

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make sure that he doesn’t have access to your money. Your hubby sounds like a narcissistic person and they don’t give up! All you have to do is look at how Trump treats people who don’t agree with him or who are different from him- vicious verbally abusive attacks and harassment . If he could, he’d attack physically.

Change all of your bank acct and credit card numbers and if he’s a beneficiary take him off immediately! Let the bank know that he’s not allowed to get that info if he’s had access to it in the past .

Also given the fact that he sounds like a narcissistic I’d get a divorce rather than a separation even though it’s a hassle at this point
He might do more than attack me. I've never met anyone like him in my life and it took a good 6 months or more to even comprehend from the evil I'd seen. I didn't think people could act or think in that way. I knew people did bad things, yes but I didn't understand how it can be done so calmly and it was even enjoyable to the person.

He shouldn't have my address or information. Unless it's been found on the dark web because computer geeks can access things we can't, he doesn't know it. He lives 100's of miles away so I should be safe.

Thank you for your advice.
 
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Endeavourer

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This passage refers to taking matters to the saints, not to "the pastor".

Unfortunately, I can't assume that an abused woman's pastor is a saint, or that he will give he will act like one towards her.

Too many times, particularly in complimentarian churches, the woman is told (sometimes even reprimanded or worse, disciplined!) to submit to her husband better and her marriage will improve! The pastor then takes the guy out to lunch and tells him he needs to get his wife under better control. When she comes back to her pastor because that didn't work, she is reprimanded for gossiping about her husband. When the marriage doesn't improve they start public church discipline against her for not submitting to her authorities.

Some churches do not take things to this extreme, but enact a smaller scale version of this that is just as damaging.

I've interacted with too many women meeting fates similar to this that I can no longer in good conscience send them to their church.

Also, many churches have a system of power driven politics within, where the old boys are covering up for each other. They will take the man's side, especially if he is in the leadership club, over the woman's because he is their friend and they want him to return the favor and take their side in other disputes.

Here is a letter from a trained counselor at a megachurch based in Chicago. It has over 13,000 members and its head pastor, James MacDonald had a radio program, Walk in the Word, with a large following:

thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HigbeeHBC.pdf

Similar politics are at play in many other churches. The letter linked in the OP described what happened to one woman due to these power politics when she sought help from her church.

I cannot assume that by referring a woman to 'her pastor', I'm referring her to "the saints", or to people who will act like it.

The passage is talking about the body of believers in Corinth, settling disputes among themselves and not going to the court. To their own shame, we see this in verse 5.

I do not see an answer to my points in your response. Can you elaborate?
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Thank you for the compliment. I have been discussing relationships on this medium a very long time. I know how threads like these will go. It is challenging to reach a balanced consensus unless everyone is willing to listen and blame is not a factor.

I have not been the victim of domestic violence or harm of any sort through a partner, family member or stranger. I don’t have a story to tell save the positive examples of manliness and femininity I was reared with under Christian auspices. I have never heard the horrors or either sex until I reached adulthood. They were never maligned.

I believe in biblical headship and submission. I am innately wired for surrender and other-centered in my relationships as I candidly described in this post.

But I have yet to find a complement in Christian circles. I have lost the benefit of likeminded women who encouraged me to stretch myself and didn’t offer excuses to behave otherwise with my companion.

I’m not seeking comfort. I’m pursuing holiness. I don’t want loopholes. I need obeisance. I have no interest in leading my companion. I was made to follow him.

I find myself in unfamiliar waters seeking the impossible. A stranger in a strange land. That’s how it feels.

Yes, these topics always go down the same broken roads that lead to the same dead ends, but are still traveled down because the scenery along the path appeals to many.

I am pleased to see you accept what the Bible plainly teaches on gender roles and that you address these situations temperately. I have seen many of your posts throughout the various topics on these forums and appreciate that this same temperance in expressed in everything I have seen you say. This is not flattery but my honest assessment when comparing what I read that anyone writes to what the Bible clearly says. I can not withhold commendation for that because it is, oddly, a rarely quality for many Christians.

It is unfortunate that you have virtually no women to encourage you in living a godly life as a woman. It is also not surprising. Our culture is proud and not much distinguishable from what the culture in Isaiah 3 had become. Two notable similarities come to mind in verse 9-12:

"For the look on their faces bears witness against them; they proclaim their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves. Tell the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds. Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him. My people—infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths."

Notice that when God was fretting for His people that women and children ruled over the men, He designated their guides (leaders) as perpetrators. It is also notable that God declared this state these leaders helped create was an act of "swallowing up their paths", i.e. destroying their future.

I pray that God continues to gives you strength to hold true to His Word in all things and not become prey to the culture who no longer puts up with sound doctrine, but instead turns aside to what they want to hear.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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The thing is, I disagree with just about everything you've said. I've seen many so called "abusive" marriages change and it was all because they DID go to God and go to a Pastor and doing so saved their marriage. It's been said to me before and I will say it again there is NO such thing as a toxic marriage.

Marriage is a unity of a man and a woman and a gift from God it's been that way since God created Adam and Eve.

I've also seen God work miracles in couples who stay together and actually keep their marriage vows that they made to God. To get divorced is to basically say to God "Sorry, we lied when we said we were making a LIFELONG commitment to stay married. And to love and cherish each other all the days of our lives. Through the good and the bad."

Even the most "toxic" of marriages has it's good parts. Yet people don't focus on this, they only focus on the bad because they expect their partners to be perfect.

That's like saying to Christ "Sorry, being a Christian is too hard so I don't want to be a Christian anymore. Even though I said and promised to you that I would make a lifelong commitment to you."

Do you think these kinds of people will escape God's judgement? Of course not! God will judge ALL of us. Both believers and unbelievers and believers will be judged by just how faithful they were to God throughout their lives and for every idle word spoken.

The only reason a good Pastor these days is against divorce is because God himself is against divorce! Christ was QUITE clear on the way God feels about divorce and couples will divorce each other these days just because their partner BREATHES on them funny.

Not to mention *I* was in a abusive marriage! My wife used to beat on me, my wife used to constantly mistreat me and not do her duties as a wife. She would basically just sit on her butt all day and do nothing but play video games. We would CONSTANTLY argue about just about everything and I've done my fair share of abuse to her too by cutting off the power to the house in the middle of the winter because she was playing the sims and not listening to what I had to say, to throwing random objects at her when I was mad, to MANY other horrible things.

Our marriage and dating life were just not... great at all. But even through all of the horribleness there still was good in our relationship or we never would have gotten married in the first place. But, thanks to God's help our marriage has improved. She hasn't hit me for at least 3 years now, we're starting to have productive arguments, I haven't thrown stuff in a long time, my wife is starting to do her daily duties instead of being on the computer all day, and all all in all we're for the most part happily married now. Our marriage is getting better and better with each passing day.

It took 6 years of waiting but my relationship to my wife changed for the better. Why? Because we actually kept our marriage vows and were willing to stick it out for the rest of our lives. I was willing to be abused ...etc and to abuse her ...etc for the rest of my life because I made a promise to God to stay married.

It might sound stupid to you, but I actually CARE about the promises I make to God! When I promised to be a follower of Christ for the rest of my life, I meant it. When I promised to be married to the same woman for the rest of my life no matter HOW bad things got, I meant it. Why? Because, she was God's chosen mate for me. I didn't choose her, GOD chose her! So that should be good enough for me because, God was the one that planned each and every part of my life. Of ALL of our lives.

Besides, a lifetime of abuse is NOTHING compared to what God has in store for us on the other side and what God would have in store for a couple who cared about their commitment to Christ SO much that they were willing to stay married despite all of the horrible things that they did to each other and were willing to focus on the good parts of their marriages instead of the bad.

So I disagree with the thought that abusive people cannot change. It's a problem that they need to go to God and a good pastor for help on, but they CAN change. It's not just me either I've personally seen MANY marriages change for the better because of what God and a good pastor can do.

But, I will admit that there are cases where people CANNOT change and they've been stuck in abusive marriages for many years or even a lifetime. And if they WANT to get divorced, they technically can. But, divorce should be seen as a last option after you've exhausted everything else and you cannot remarry unless you want to be labeled an adulterer by God (Matthew 19:9). You're right though, God did say that if your spouse cheats on you that you can freely remarry without being labeled an adulterer but that's the ONLY reason for a biblical divorce in God's eyes. There literally is NO other reason. To divorce for another reason is something that mankind made up, not God.

One cannot claim to follow Christ and then NOT obey his teachings or only obey the ones that they like! You cannot go through the Bible and say "Well the Bible says Abortion and Homosexuality is wrong but it says good things about other stuff that I agree on so I'll pick and choose those." NO! That's WRONG. You either follow God/the Bible as a whole or do not follow him at all!

You say that men twist scripture verses that tell women to submit to their husbands? What's twisting about what it actually says in scripture? But, it also tells MEN to submit to their wives as well. I'll prove it.

Let's read Ephesians 5:21-33 together.

" Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Be Subject to One Another

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church- for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. "

What is so taken out of context about that? And that's just one Bible verse! It's taught THROUGHOUT the Bible. Some example verses are 1 Peter 3:1-22, 1 Peter 3:7, Genesis 3:16, Proverbs 31:10-15, Hebrews 13:4, Genesis 2:18 ... the list goes on. We're supposed to submit to each other as Christ submitted to us. It's not because women are the inferior sex or because men are supposed to love and respect their wives but because that's how God DESIGNED us from the very beginning! If you do not submit to your husband and if your husband does not submit to you, than you are NOT following God's plan for your life. If you don't like it, take it up with God! God's word has NEVER changed since he gave it to Moses. Christ merely came to FULFILL it (Matthew 5:17) so that we can have a hope of salvation because we were ALL condemned before Christ came. But just because God fulfilled the law does NOT mean that the law and his commandments still technically aren't in effect. It just means that we no longer have to PERFECTLY keep the law and God's commandments.

But it goes both ways too. A husband if he's truly following Christ should love and respect his wife as God commanded and also yes, submit to her as well. It's a two way street.

I'm sorry for going on an hour + long rant but it just angers me when somebody says that they're following God when they're only following the verses that they like and they ignore the other ones completely because APPARENTLY the times have changed. They haven't. It's just that overtime people have become less Godly as Christ's return is getting closer and closer.

But, do NOT view my hour + long rant as me saying that you are not saved. You are. Because we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. You just are not following Christ's teachings and will one day appear before Christ ashamed.

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

This is what you are up against. But notice the immediately following admonishment Paul gave in the next verse that opposes this turning aside:

"As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." (2 Timothy 4:5)

The Scripture are clearly in agreement with what you have said about enduring suffering, including abuses in marriage (on an interesting note, for years I too have been the one who is assaulted by my wife; everything from punching, slapping, throwing speaker sets and glass objects at me, pulling my beard hair out of my face, etc.; so no one can claim hypocrisy on my part as I do what I am about to relay). To apply a more explicit example for the context of this topic, let's see what the Bible has to say on submission in a relationship less serious covenantal than marriage (that of slave/master):

"Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps." (2 Peter 2:21)

Notice the context is not only a lesser relationship, but that the one lacking gentleness is literally beating the servant, not just saying unkind things or being a little aggressive. What does Peter say? That we don't have to put up with this and God would never want this for us? To the contrary, he says the one who is conscious of God will be more likely to endure such suffering, and that to this level of graciousness we have been called! Why?

"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly." (2 Peter 2:22-23)

The only thing I need to clarify about your post is near the end when you said husbands and wives are to submit to each other. This is true, but not in the same way. After declaring the general command to submit to one another, Paul followed with what that specifically means for husbands and wives. Wvies submit to their husband by relinquishing self-will to their husband's authority. Husbands submit to their wives by loving them as Christ loved the Church and sacrificing any guarantee of his pleasure to bless the wife in the manner Christ would (not necessarily giving her everything she desires).
 
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Wvies submit to their husband by relinquishing self-will to their husband's authority. Husbands submit to their wives by loving them as Christ loved the Church and sacrificing any guarantee of his pleasure to bless the wife in the manner Christ would (not necessarily giving her everything she desires).
I can’t help but notice the discrepancy in that God does not give everything everyone desires but the wife is to give to the husband everything that he desires :
 
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bèlla

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I am pleased to see you accept what the Bible plainly teaches on gender roles and that you address these situations temperately. I have seen many of your posts throughout the various topics on these forums and appreciate that this same temperance in expressed in everything I have seen you say.

Thank you for the kind words. That is my intention. :)

This is not flattery but my honest assessment when comparing what I read that anyone writes to what the Bible clearly says. I can not withhold commendation for that because it is, oddly, a rarely quality for many Christians.

I appreciate your honesty. Oftentimes I gain greater insight on my behavior from your sex than my own.

It is unfortunate that you have virtually no women to encourage you in living a godly life as a woman.

Women seek harmony and a like-minded spirit. Having others who agree with their sentiments is important to most. Difference can be challenging. There is often a want to bring the person around to their way of thinking or assumption our gender means we share similarities in feeling and belief.

I am not a conformist or a people pleaser. If the Lord tells me right and everyone says left; I’m heading in His direction. My self-esteem and worth come from God. I must be in the company of others who are secure in their person aren’t desirous of ‘yes’ men. I can’t fill that role.

I think a lot of this hails from an absence of respect and over validation of strength. The need to be seen this way or that usually distorts the mind and makes us over compensate. And its all in vain.

No man has ever praised my strength. They’ve praised my beauty, submission, poise, manners, skills, and intellect. Most of the things men value are the very ones we ignore. But I know better and continually invest in my improvement for the sake of his benefit.

I am a lookingglass. I reflect more about him to the world than another would. It is my conviction that reflection will add to his person; not detract.

Every investment I make on his behalf is a blessing for both. My reward is plentiful. And the pride he reveals in his countenance or speech on my regard is payment in full.

I am his lady in every sense of the word. I don’t embrace connections that will compromise its presence. I have met others like myself in the past and trust the Lord will bring me faithful companions whose example and iron are beneficial as is mine.

I pray that God continues to gives you strength to hold true to His Word in all things and not become prey to the culture who no longer puts up with sound doctrine, but instead turns aside to what they want to hear.

Thank you. That is my prayer too. I am certain that He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion. God’s not done with me yet! :)
 
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Paidiske

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If a married couple does not attend the church regularly and seeks help from the church, what does the abused honestly expect?

I just wanted to pick up on this, and maybe say something about where a pastor's help can be appropriate.

Most people who've been abused are confused about what has happened to them. They have difficulty defining where the abuse begins and ends. They have difficulty defining what is - and is not - their own area of moral culpability. They often lack confidence in articulating what has happened to them in terms of abuse.

A good pastor - someone who both has some understanding of abuse, and of their own limitations - will be able to recognise abuse, and help the victim understand what has happened to them. That pastor will be able to reassure the victim that they do not need to carry a burden of guilt about it. And they will be able to be a support in the victim claiming and articulating the truth of what has happened and working out what they want to do next (in terms of offering referrals and the like).

These are often necessary first steps before someone is ready to go to the police, or a shelter or any other source of more specific support. That's the sort of stuff that is properly within a pastor's remit. But it does require that pastor to have been trained in understanding abuse, its dimensions and dynamics, and how to respond appropriately.
 
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Sparagmos

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I disagree with this wholeheartedly. That’s the kind of environment that tends to lead to the church covering up tons of abuses. What if things get physical and something like rape is involved?
The church - cover up abuses or tolerate rape? Never!!!
 
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ChicanaRose

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ChicanaRose

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The problem was that he was extroverted and had no guilt. He could lie and he told them I was ill. They thought I was bipolar. I could have had many people vouch for my sanity if needed.

One of the reasons people side with the abuser is that he is so believable; such a good actor.

I'm sorry to hear of all that you had to go through. May God reward you for your faithfulness to Him, and may the rest of your days be filled with only peace and blessings.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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I can’t help but notice the discrepancy in that God does not give everything everyone desires but the wife is to give to the husband everything that he desires :

I am glad you noticed it, because it wasn't hidden or implied and is actually constituent to the biblical ontology of the genders and their union. The marriage of men and women is a mystery revealed in the relationship of Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:32). This is the very purpose that marriage serves, to emulate that union of humanity with our divine Lord. Is the church expected to submit to the Lord everything He desires? Yes. Is Jesus expected to give us everything we desire? No, and that is precisely why Jesus said to count the cost of following Him and why many won't.

For this same reason the wife is to "submit in everything to their husbands" (Ephesians 5:24) because "the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:23) And the husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church." (Ephesians 5:25) Notice its not as she, in her fallen state, wants him to love her, or how he, in his fallen state, wants to love her (perhaps by spoiling her and keeping the peace). Rather, he is to purify his masculinity in the full image of Christ and love her as Christ loved the church, which was to "sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:26-27)

So yes, the wife is expected to give the husband everything he desires if he is not commanding sin. Notice I didn't say except if he is committing sin, as 1 Peter 3 commands women who say they trust God to demonstrate it by submitting to their husbands even if they do not obey the Word. Why is it trusting God? Because God does not make mistakes. He made that man a man and that woman a woman and assigned roles ontologically, not by credentials. Therefore to submit to the husband is equivalent to the woman putting her hope in God and not fearing anything that is frightening (1 Peter 3:6). If she truly believes in God, then she will entrust her husband to his authority to correct the man where he is actually at fault and vindicate the man when he is in the right, rather than trying to commandeer the vessel when things appear to become unsettled, walking by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).

Again: "For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly." (1 Peter 2:21-23)
 
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Endeavourer

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I am glad you noticed it, because it wasn't hidden or implied and is actually constituent to the biblical ontology of the genders and their union. The marriage of men and women is a mystery revealed in the relationship of Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:32). This is the very purpose that marriage serves, to emulate that union of humanity with our divine Lord. Is the church expected to submit to the Lord everything He desires? Yes. Is Jesus expected to give us everything we desire? No, and that is precisely why Jesus said to count the cost of following Him and why many won't.

For this same reason the wife is to "submit in everything to their husbands" (Ephesians 5:24) because "the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:23) And the husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church." (Ephesians 5:25) Notice its not as she, in her fallen state, wants him to love her, or how he, in his fallen state, wants to love her (perhaps by spoiling her and keeping the peace). Rather, he is to purify his masculinity in the full image of Christ and love her as Christ loved the church, which was to "sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:26-27)

So yes, the wife is expected to give the husband everything he desires if he is not commanding sin. Notice I didn't say except if he is committing sin, as 1 Peter 3 commands women who say they trust God to demonstrate it by submitting to their husbands even if they do not obey the Word. Why is it trusting God? Because God does not make mistakes. He made that man a man and that woman a woman and assigned roles ontologically, not by credentials. Therefore to submit to the husband is equivalent to the woman putting her hope in God and not fearing anything that is frightening (1 Peter 3:6). If she truly believes in God, then she will entrust her husband to his authority to correct the man where he is actually at fault and vindicate the man when he is in the right, rather than trying to commandeer the vessel when things appear to become unsettled, walking by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).

Again: "For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly." (1 Peter 2:21-23)

Sir, please stick to the topic of this thread. Your posts are distracting from the topic.

We are not discussing your view on submission; we are discussing whether the church is safe counsel for the abused wife.

Is a church to tell an abused wife to just submit to the abuse better? If not, what do you see as her path?
 
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Endeavourer

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Yes, these topics always go down the same broken roads that lead to the same dead ends, but are still traveled down because the scenery along the path appeals to many.

I am pleased to see you accept what the Bible plainly teaches on gender roles and that you address these situations temperately. I have seen many of your posts throughout the various topics on these forums and appreciate that this same temperance in expressed in everything I have seen you say. This is not flattery but my honest assessment when comparing what I read that anyone writes to what the Bible clearly says. I can not withhold commendation for that because it is, oddly, a rarely quality for many Christians.

It is unfortunate that you have virtually no women to encourage you in living a godly life as a woman. It is also not surprising. Our culture is proud and not much distinguishable from what the culture in Isaiah 3 had become. Two notable similarities come to mind in verse 9-12:

"For the look on their faces bears witness against them; they proclaim their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves. Tell the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds. Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him. My people—infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths."

Notice that when God was fretting for His people that women and children ruled over the men, He designated their guides (leaders) as perpetrators. It is also notable that God declared this state these leaders helped create was an act of "swallowing up their paths", i.e. destroying their future.

I pray that God continues to gives you strength to hold true to His Word in all things and not become prey to the culture who no longer puts up with sound doctrine, but instead turns aside to what they want to hear.

Your post is off topic. We are not discussing submission doctrines.

This thread is discussing whether or not the church is a place of safety for an abused woman. Do you have any comments on the article linked in the OP?
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Thank you for the kind words. That is my intention. :)
I appreciate your honesty. Oftentimes I gain greater insight on my behavior from your sex than my own.

In an ontological hierarchy, it is an intrinsic design feature. Man is made for God, and the woman is made for God by being made for the man, to help him image God and thus glorify Him. As such, women will ironically learn more about godly femininity from the masculine man (or women submitted to their men in accordance with Titus 2:3-5), just as men will learn proper spiritual direction and leadership from God rather than other man (unless of course they are learning it from other men submitted to God who know the Word).

Women seek harmony and a like-minded spirit. Having others who agree with their sentiments is important to most. Difference can be challenging. There is often a want to bring the person around to their way of thinking or assumption our gender means we share similarities in feeling and belief.

I have noticed this. This is really the paradox of humanity to God and femininity to men. When submission is lacking, human and feminine qualities become corrupted and manifest ugliness, ignorance, impotence and pride. It is not good for anything. However, when submitted, becomes exceedingly noble, wise and beautiful of traits and is useful for every good thing. Thus, the same kind of person can operate both as a crown of glory and decay in the bones (Proverbs 12:4).

In this context, the feminine qualities of seeking social cohesion can be extremely foolish, destructive (especially spiritually) and self-serving. However, when this quality is used in a surrendered woman, it will be conducive to peace, wisdom and God-honouring relationship as God defines these qualities in the Scripture (and important qualifier since many are wise in their own eyes and always proclaim their own goodness, even when the Scripture is explicitly against their actions).

So it is either a source of foolishness, or wisdom, weakness or strength, and ugliness or beauty. It is up to the woman to decide whether she is going to please God with her femininity or follow after the first lie of Satan that she can direct her own self.

I am not a conformist or a people pleaser. If the Lord tells me right and everyone says left; I’m heading in His direction. My self-esteem and worth come from God. I must be in the company of others who are secure in their person aren’t desirous of ‘yes’ men. I can’t fill that role.

This, when done truly, is a recipe for unrelenting victory (Romans 8:33-39), tearing down strongholds (2 Corinthians 10:4-5), and having a peace that surpasses all understanding (Philippians 4:4-7).

I think a lot of this hails from an absence of respect and over validation of strength. The need to be seen this way or that usually distorts the mind and makes us over compensate. And its all in vain.

No man has ever praised my strength. They’ve praised my beauty, submission, poise, manners, skills, and intellect. Most of the things men value are the very ones we ignore. But I know better and continually invest in my improvement for the sake of his benefit.

I can relate. That is, to being impressed by submission and wisdom rather than strength. And I have to beat the horse that never dies on this. This always come back to the mystery of Christ and the church, and what male and female was created as a distinction for. These is a reason that normally functioning, unpolluted women admire strength and largeness and why normally functioning, unpolluted men admire beauty and weakness (of a sort). Why is that?

Because man says to God "But I will sing of your strength; I will sing aloud of your steadfast love in the morning. For you have been to me a fortress and a refuge in the day of my distress." (Psalms 59:16) And "The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe." (Proverbs 18:10)

But to man God says "His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man, but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love." (Psalms 147:10-11)

We always have to come back to representation and headship to have insight into why men and women perceive and function the way they do, and the ways they ought to function and perceive. To stray from this is not wise.

I am a lookingglass. I reflect more about him to the world than another would. It is my conviction that reflection will add to his person; not detract.

Every investment I make on his behalf is a blessing for both. My reward is plentiful. And the pride he reveals in his countenance or speech on my regard is payment in full.

I am his lady in every sense of the word. I don’t embrace connections that will compromise its presence. I have met others like myself in the past and trust the Lord will bring me faithful companions whose example and iron are beneficial as is mine.

Entirely contrary to culture and exactly right. A shame that what the Proverbs says is true: "An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain." (Proverbs 31:10-11)

It is difficult to sustain nobility when surrounded by foolishness. As aforementioned, I too know for women this is more so a vulnerable area due to innate desire for social cohesion. But I know in relying on God's strength, as you declare you do, it is possible. I also know from much experience that this is true: "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit." (James 5:16-18)

"And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." (1 John 5:14)
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Sir, please stick to the topic of this thread. Your posts are distracting from the topic.

We are not discussing your view on submission; we are discussing whether the church is safe counsel for the abused wife.

Is a church to tell an abused wife to just submit to the abuse better? If not, what do you see as her path?

Your post is off topic. We are not discussing submission doctrines.

This thread is discussing whether or not the church is a place of safety for an abused woman. Do you have any comments on the article linked in the OP?

I wasn't discussing my view on submission either, I was discussing what the Bible actually, clearly, explicitly says on enduring immense suffering and submission, which is a conjoined matter in this subject. Hence, biblical commands on submission and what that entails are immediately relevant to the OP of married women enduring suffering. How you failed to see that is bizarre. It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.
 
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Endeavourer

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I wasn't discussing my view on submission either, I was discussing what the Bible actually, clearly, explicitly says on enduring immense suffering and submission, which is a conjoined matter in this subject. Hence, biblical commands on submission and what that entails are immediately relevant to the OP of married women enduring suffering. How you failed to see that is bizarre. It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.

In summary, then, your "Christian" advice to an abused wife would be to submit better and to stop complaining about her suffering?
 
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Sparagmos

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I wasn't discussing my view on submission either, I was discussing what the Bible actually, clearly, explicitly says on enduring immense suffering and submission, which is a conjoined matter in this subject. Hence, biblical commands on submission and what that entails are immediately relevant to the OP of married women enduring suffering. How you failed to see that is bizarre. It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.
And here we have it - for all to see, that as @Endeavourer laid out in the OP, some Christians will counsel an abused women that she must submit to her husband, stay with her husband, and that her abuse is some kind of holy suffering that she offers to the lord. This advice, if taken, will literally KILL some women, and will also permanently damage her children, who are almost always also being abused.

My mother chose to submit to her abuser, and our family has never recovered.

This view of headship and submission to abuse is sick and should be treated the same way we would a church that protects child rapists.
 
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ToBeLoved

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We are not discussing your view on submission; we are discussing whether the church is safe counsel for the abused wife.

Is a church to tell an abused wife to just submit to the abuse better? If not, what do you see as her path?
I’m glad you used the word counsel, because the person getting counsel has the advantage of having a viewpoint of the entire situation and therefore needs to do and take action that is appropriate for that specific situation.

I think often people go to the church when a situation is far beyond a healthy, Godly marriage
 
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Brightmoon

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My mother also submitted to an extremely emotionally abusive misogynistic husband for 14 years and it caused a lot of damage to me and my sister even though she eventually left him.
 
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