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Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

Christ is Lord

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But think about it. Where in the Bible do we see a system of justice such as in this country has, and most countries have?

The Apostle Paul said we are to submit to the governing authorities especially when it’s not contradictory to God’s government. See Romans 13. And we do see a similar system in our system of justice today.

The Bible says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I'm sure many men and women in those cages would be happy to give up an eye or a tooth so that they could go home and be with their families and support them.

The eye of and eye concept really meant the punishment should be appropriate for the crime. So therefore, if you killed a man’s ox you gave him another ox or paid the value for one. What do you think is an appropriate punishment for someone that murdered someone or committed child sacrifice?
 
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Brightmoon

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No I don't. He can't even see that I have seen it. I need his address to get divorced or he'd be completely blocked instead of on an ignore list. Not that I'm in a hurry to get a divorce. I'm planning on remaining alone whether we divorce or stay separated.
make sure that he doesn’t have access to your money. Your hubby sounds like a narcissistic person and they don’t give up! All you have to do is look at how Trump treats people who don’t agree with him or who are different from him- vicious verbally abusive attacks and harassment . If he could, he’d attack physically.

Change all of your bank acct and credit card numbers and if he’s a beneficiary take him off immediately! Let the bank know that he’s not allowed to get that info if he’s had access to it in the past .

Also given the fact that he sounds like a narcissistic I’d get a divorce rather than a separation even though it’s a hassle at this point
 
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Yahkov

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Telling people not to go to pastors or the church for these situations is just not sound Biblical advice. Just because you see some bad situations where the abuse was not corrected, that doesn't mean we just neglect the help churches, or maybe even pastors, may offer.

"When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud-even your own brothers!" - 1 Corinthians 6:1-8

If the abuser is not a believer, you go to court. If the abuser is a believer, you go to the church. This appears to be the Bible's stance. I'd imagine God has the better idea.

The church is a place where a believer is held accountable. The church should see what is going on and should be much more involved in the couples life if they are regular attendees. If a married couple does not attend the church regularly and seeks help from the church, what does the abused honestly expect? I am not accusing anyone of this, only delivering a hypothetical. Abuse is a cowardice act and is very disgraceful. I stand completely against it. It's despicable.

Domestic violence is illegal and not tolerated in this country. Doesn't do a very good job at deterring abuse. Your best advice was already given and instructed by God. Some may have found themselves in a marriage that is unequally yoked, well, there is a reason why Paul addresses this in 1 Corinthians and there is a reason why Jesus emphasizes the seriousness of taking an oath, immediately following what He said about divorce in the beatitudes. Unfortunately for some spouses, they received these teachings too late. In their horrible circumstance they are mere reflections of exactly why these teachings were given to us in the first place.

If the spouse that is the abuser is not a believer, then we have ourselves a mission on our hands as a body of believers. We ought to offer a bombardment of prayers.
 
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LoricaLady

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The Apostle Paul said we are to submit to the governing authorities especially when it’s not contradictory to God’s government. See Romans 13. And we do see a similar system in our system of justice today.



The eye of and eye concept really meant the punishment should be appropriate for the crime. So therefore, if you killed a man’s ox you gave him another ox or paid the value for one. What do you think is an appropriate punishment for someone that murdered someone or committed child sacrifice?
People are always quoting Paul while leaving out all of the Word. Paul said to follow the Savior, not him. As Peter said, Paul is difficult to understand. This is especially true 2,000 years later in a foreign language and totally different culture.

The Word says 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." There are no disclaimers there. People add in "Well, what that really means is...." but we are sternly told not to add to, or subtract from, Scriptures. Yes, of course an eye for an eye represents a general system where punishment is doled out equally for what has been taken away by a crime. But that doesn't mean that the Father changed His mind and there is no longer an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.

Yes, we are to submit to governments UNLESS they are telling us to violate the laws of the Almighty. Haven't martyrs, including mostly all the Apostles, been slain because they refused to obey Roman (and other natioinal) laws which prohibited their worship of Messiah, and because they refused to bow down to their government's pagan gods?

Anyway nowhere in my post on jails did I say to defy the government. I simply said, accurately, that its system of justice is not Biblical. I also accurately said that if all those who have committed crimes were in prison we would have few people driving on the streets or in the work place and that, in fact, we wouldn't have enough prisons to hold them. That is true too. It is also true that our system of "justice" actually fosters more crime, rarely helps anyone be rehabilitated, and fosters a system that is filled with drugs, porn, and horrific sex crimes. Sorry but I don't think that's the kind of penal system our Father wants for any nation.

But, again, I did not say to disobey the Law. I simply said prisons are not Biblical and that they are far more likely to be harmful to people and society than helpful.

What do I think is appropriate for someone who commits human sacrifice or murders a child? I think we should do as the Bible says and that the person should be killed. Life for life. However, in the cases I mentioned, the law was not coming after those people who gave their testimonies. The murders were implied. I do not believe that the law requires, anywhere, that you have to turn yourself in for crimes. If the Father tells people to do that - and sometimes He does! - then one should obey.

In the meantime, again, reborn people are, by report anyway, serving their communities and other believers and their families. So, I don't judge them. I leave judgment to the Lord. He will work it all out. What can you or I do about it all, really? Nothing.
 
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Christ is Lord

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If the abuser is not a believer, you go to court. If the abuser is a believer, you go to the church. This appears to be the Bible's stance. I'd imagine God has the better idea

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. That’s the kind of environment that tends to lead to the church covering up tons of abuses. What if things get physical and something like rape is involved?
 
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Christ is Lord

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What do I think is appropriate for someone who commits human sacrifice or murders a child? I think we should do as the Bible says and that the person should be killed.

I’m sorry but I believe you’re taking a culture that is much older than ours and trying to fit it to ours.
 
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Brightmoon

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The bottom line here is to make sure the abused spouse is physically, emotionally and financially safe before worrying about the abuser’s spirituality . There are too many people who treat women ( its usually women who are victims) as objects to be controlled by men. And they get blamed for the abuse if they don’t submit. If your pastor is one of those patriarchal idiots then the best advice I can give is to ignore him before he gets you killed, seriously injured or impoverished
 
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Christ is Lord

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P.S. ChristisLord I looked at Romans 13. I don't see our penal system described there.

I’m sorry, I was referring to the fact that Paul was encouraging believes to submit to the governing authorities because at the end of the day God is sovereign is he is who allows them to be in power. However, we should definitely defy them if that is called for is in direct contradiction to God’s word.
 
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LoricaLady

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I’m sorry but I believe you’re taking a culture that is much older than ours and trying to fit it to ours.
I'm sorry, but to me one is showing cognitive dissonance when one quotes the Bible in this place or that place to prove a point, and then turns around and says "Well, the Bible isn't appropriate in that place over here or that verse over there because our younger - and presumed to be smarter than the Lord - culture, knows better than what is in the Word."
 
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Christ is Lord

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If your pastor is one of those patriarchal idiots then the best advice I can give is to ignore him before he gets you killed, seriously injured or impoverished

My thoughts exactly. This idea in which we are to treat this without realizing that in my cases your life is at stake we shouldn’t take this lightly. If you serious feel unsafe then you should go to the authorities first.
 
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LoricaLady

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P.S. ChristIsLord The Bible is not a "culture." It is the Lord speaking. Historically the Israelites were always thinking they knew better, that they were smarter, more "modern" than the Word. This type of thinking goes back to Adam and Eve who heard His words, but thought they knew better than Him.
 
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Christ is Lord

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I'm sorry, but to me one is showing cognitive dissonance when one quotes the Bible in this place or that place to prove a point, and then turns around and says "Well, the Bible isn't appropriate in that place over here or that verse over there because our younger - and presumed to be smarter than the Lord - culture, knows better than what is in the Word."

God doesn’t endorse any particular culture for (with exception of course) matter. He meets people were they are and works with them. The ancient Middle Eastern Culture is far more alien to us now that the culture of the Apostle Paul’s. Both are ancient and should be taken in their correct context. The notion that we should dish out capital punishment for someone for murder based on passages in the OT can get you into trouble. What happens in the case of adultery then? Should we kill people that are found guilty for that as well?
 
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Yahkov

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I disagree with this wholeheartedly. That’s the kind of environment that tends to lead to the church covering up tons of abuses. What if things get physical and something like rape is involved?

What exactly are you disagreeing with wholeheartedly? My stance is straight from Scripture. How exactly do you want to refute 1 Corinthians 6:1-8?
 
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Christ is Lord

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God doesn’t endorse any particular culture for (with exception of course) matter. He meets people were they are and works with them. The ancient Middle Eastern Culture is far more alien to us now that the culture of the Apostle Paul’s. Both are ancient and should be taken in their correct context. The notion that we should dish out capital punishment for someone for murder based on passages in the OT can get you into trouble. What happens in the case of adultery then? Should we kill people that are found guilty for that as well?

When you view the Bible as a book of rules of stuff you need to do you’ll find yourself in a number of dilemmas
 
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Endeavourer

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Telling people not to go to pastors or the church for these situations is just not sound Biblical advice. Just because you see some bad situations where the abuse was not corrected, that doesn't mean we just neglect the help churches, or maybe even pastors, may offer.

Yahkov, initially I thought the same. However, it's not just "some" bad situations, it's many...perhaps most. The average pastors has no training in saving marriages so much of the advice is shooting from the hip. In denominations steeped in unBiblical viewpoints about submission, the outcome is more certain to be bad.

Did you read the story linked in the OP?

How many innocent people should we tolerate on death row before demanding a correction to our penal system? How many abused women should we destroy under the bus before not sending others to the same fate?

I've found that sending women to a local women's shelter if their husband is so abusive he's not safe anymore is FAR superior and safer an option for them than sending them to a pastor. The women's shelters see cases like hers day in and day out, they have a system set up to keep her safe and resources to support her in the time of crisis. They will not urge her to go back and submit to her husband better like, unfortunately, many pastors have.

If the abuse is not severe enough to warrant an immediate separation, I either help them personally or send them to marriagebuilders.com, a Chrisitian ministry who provides free help and is experienced in helping the abused party set boundaries that help change poor behaviors and restore love in the marriage.

Unfortunately, too often a pastor will invoke submission and L&R style advice to the harm, if not destruction, of abused women. This is why I no longer refer anyone to "her pastor". Also, since they are not trained in marriage counseling, their advice is not often very good. In fact, if an abused wife suggests it I strongly discourage it. The odds for good help are against her.

There are a few pastors that understand the limitations of their training and are careful to refer abused spouses to other resources that they already know to also be safe. Those are the safe pastors. Two safe pastors have interacted on this thread, Topher and Paidiske.
 
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A Realist

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Domestic violence is illegal and not tolerated in this country.
...which is exactly why no one should be going to the pastor or congregation to "correct" domestic violence issues.
 
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Yahkov

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Yahkov, initially I thought the same. However, it's not just "some" bad situations, it's many...perhaps most. The average pastors has no training in saving marriages so much of the advice is shooting from the hip. In denominations steeped in unBiblical viewpoints about submission, the outcome is more certain to be bad.

Did you read the story linked in the OP?

How many innocent people should we tolerate on death row before demanding a correction to our penal system? How many abused women should we destroy under the bus before not sending others to the same fate?

I've found that sending women to a local women's shelter if their husband is so abusive he's not safe anymore is FAR superior and safer an option for them than sending them to a pastor. The women's shelters see cases like hers day in and day out, they have a system set up to keep her safe and resources to support her in the time of crisis. They will not urge her to go back and submit to her husband better like, unfortunately, many pastors have.

If the abuse is not severe enough to warrant an immediate separation, I either help them personally or send them to marriagebuilders.com, a Chrisitian ministry who provides free help and is experienced in helping the abused party set boundaries that help change poor behaviors and restore love in the marriage.

Unfortunately, too often a pastor will invoke submission and L&R style advice to the harm, if not destruction, of abused women. This is why I no longer refer anyone to "her pastor". Also, since they are not trained in marriage counseling, their advice is not often very good. In fact, if an abused wife suggests it I strongly discourage it. The odds for good help are against her.

There are a few pastors that understand the limitations of their training and are careful to refer abused spouses to other resources that they already know to also be safe. Those are the safe pastors. Two safe pastors have interacted on this thread, Topher and Paidiske.

Even with many bad situations, I believe we still ought to follow God's advice first. I will elaborate and say that I believe that these type of issues you don't just privately bring up to a pastor. These are issues you bring up to the church. That appears to be the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 6. There is a plurality to the tone, not singularity. If the church is not doing it's part, the church is failing.

I get entirely what you say when you are caught in a bad denomination. Hopefully in such a circumstance the abused can then see that is not a denomination to be a part of. I don't want to make it sound like this is all easy. I know it isn't. The worst feeling is feeling helpless, like you have no where to go. I only intend to uphold the Biblical advice as our first priority, our first step.

I would also believe that there will come a certain point to where it will reach the court. Simply because laws restrict us from being silent when knowing of a crime. We are also commanded in Romans to submit ourselves to the authority. It all circles around and works in harmony. No matter, going to the church, if the abuser is a believer, seems to be the first step.
 
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LoricaLady

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God doesn’t endorse any particular culture for (with exception of course) matter. He meets people were they are and works with them. The ancient Middle Eastern Culture is far more alien to us now that the culture of the Apostle Paul’s. Both are ancient and should be taken in their correct context. The notion that we should dish out capital punishment for someone for murder based on passages in the OT can get you into trouble. What happens in the case of adultery then? Should we kill people that are found guilty for that as well?
We cannot enforce all the laws of the Old Testament now because many are tied to the Temple, which was destroyed in 70 A.D., and tied to the Rabbinic priesthood which was scattered to the winds then. We can still keep the Commandments, though, like keeping the Sabbath, not bowing down to other gods, the food laws, and so on. That is what the true Israelites did in the captivity in Babylon.

I bet you think animal sacrifices are all over, outdated, right? Well, if you will search the Old Testament you will see that in the Millenium, the really "modern" age to come, when the Temple is restored in its glory, animal sacrifices will be reinstituted. YHWH, aka God, never changes. He spoke the 10 Commandments at Mt. Sinai, audibly. The Bible says He "will not alter" what goes out of His mouth.

I bet you think the food laws are all over now too, right? First of all when Peter had his meat on the sheet dream he protested that he had never eaten anything unclean. This shows Messiah never changed the food laws. (When He talked about food, He did not mean pig and lobster, which were not considered food by those in Israel anymore than road kill is considered food to us.) In Scriptures the interpretation for dreams is given. In Peter's case we are told more than once "This means...." There is zero mention of food, only of "unclean" gentiles being brought into the Kingdom.

Notice that in prison with Joseph, both Pharaoh's baker and butler had dreams about food. The interpretations for their dreams were given also. Once again, the interpretations had zero to do with food.

Also notice that in Acts 15 NON Jewish converts are told to refrain from blood, per Mosaic Law, and not to eat the meat of strangled animals. Strangled animals still had all the blood inside. Later you see in Acts 15 that - as was the custom at the time - the new converts were assumed to be going to the Synagogues on the Sabbaths (not Sundays) to learn the rest of the Laws of Moses.

We can't stone those caught in adultery because we don't have a Rabbinic system in this country to go by. Messiah did not stone the woman caught in adultery but He was not changing the Torah. The Torah says that both the man and woman should be brought forth, but only she was brought forth. The Torah says there must be two witnesses. When He wrote in the sand (maybe the sins of the witnesses, maybe even some of them with her?) the would be witnesses disappeared. The Torah was not being followed, and He showed her mercy, but told her, per the Torah, "Go and sin no more."

There is much in mainstream Christianity that is missing it. There are many traditions of men there, which our Savior hated and berated the Pharisees for

Again, you cite "culture." Cultures that go contrary to the Word lead to all kinds of problems for their populations. And that includes all cultures in one way or another. Again, I am not saying that we should disobey the laws of the land, unless we have to in order to be true to our Savior - as you agree. I was not directing anyone to do this or that. I was simply commenting. Commenting. I pointed out the problems of our penal system which thinks it has a better idea than what is taught in the Word. I said that it is not what "cultures" do that the Lord wants to agree with. He wants us to do what HE told us to do - where possible in the dispersal - and He "changes not."
 
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Yahkov

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...which is exactly why no one should be going to the pastor or congregation to "correct" domestic violence issues.

Because the government does such a great job at correcting it? I want to steer away from the "go to the pastor" but rather my stance is: "go to the church." If the abuser is a believer, I believe a body of believers would be way more effective than the government. God is in the changing hearts business.
 
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