Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[A Realist]

No matter, going to the church, if the abuser is a believer, seems to be the first step.

...and if that happens as the first step, the pastor/church should immediately notify the authorities if this involves illegal activities.

Too many pastors/churches don't do this and try to handle it in-house.

 

[Endeavourer]

What exactly are you disagreeing with wholeheartedly? My stance is straight from Scripture. How exactly do you want to refute 1 Corinthians 6:1-8?

This passage refers to taking matters to the saints, not to "the pastor".

Unfortunately, I can't assume that an abused woman's pastor is a saint, or that he will give he will act like one towards her.

Too many times, particularly in complimentarian churches, the woman is told (sometimes even reprimanded or worse, disciplined!) to submit to her husband better and her marriage will improve! The pastor then takes the guy out to lunch and tells him he needs to get his wife under better control. When she comes back to her pastor because that didn't work, she is reprimanded for gossiping about her husband. When the marriage doesn't improve they start public church discipline against her for not submitting to her authorities.

Some churches do not take things to this extreme, but enact a smaller scale version of this that is just as damaging.

I've interacted with too many women meeting fates similar to this that I can no longer in good conscience send them to their church.

Also, many churches have a system of power driven politics within, where the old boys are covering up for each other. They will take the man's side, especially if he is in the leadership club, over the woman's because he is their friend and they want him to return the favor and take their side in other disputes.

Here is a letter from a trained counselor at a megachurch based in Chicago. It has over 13,000 members and its head pastor, James MacDonald had a radio program, Walk in the Word, with a large following:

thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HigbeeHBC.pdf

Similar politics are at play in many other churches. The letter linked in the OP described what happened to one woman due to these power politics when she sought help from her church.

I cannot assume that by referring a woman to 'her pastor', I'm referring her to "the saints", or to people who will act like it.

 

[A Realist]

Because the government does such a great job at correcting it? I want to steer away from the "go to the pastor" but rather my stance is: "go to the church." If the abuser is a believer, I believe a body of believers would be way more effective than the government. God is in the changing hearts business.

Really? If a wife is getting the crap beat out of her, you think the "church" should handle it? What, pray-tell, is the church going to do? Pray the violence out of the offender?

 

[Christ is Lord]

Folks as yourself this. If someone breaks into your house and you feel unsafe who is the first person you would call? Is it the pastor or the police?

If a person feels that they are unsafe in a marriage or a relationship it is in that person's right to contact the authorities. I do believe in discernment if the Holy Spirt leads you to go a different route (i.e going to your pastor or a person in leadership in your church or even going to a shelter) that is fine as well. But we should never make a person feel that they should NEVER go to the authorities because they feel unsafe.

 

[Christ is Lord]

We cannot enforce all the laws of the Old Testament now because many are tied to the Temple, which was destroyed in 70 A.D., and tied to the Rabbinic priesthood which was scattered to the winds then. We can still keep the Commandments, though, like keeping the Sabbath, not bowing down to other gods, the food laws, and so on. That is what the true Israelites did in the captivity in Babylon.

I bet you think animal sacrifices are all over, outdated, right? Well, if you will search the Old Testament you will see that in the Millenium, the really "modern" age to come, when the Temple is restored in its glory, animal sacrifices will be reinstituted. YHWH, aka God, never changes. He spoke the 10 Commandments at Mt. Sinai, audibly. The Bible says He "will not alter" what goes out of His mouth.

I bet you think the food laws are all over now too, right? First of all when Peter had his meat on the sheet dream he protested that he had never eaten anything unclean. This shows Messiah never changed the food laws. (When He talked about food, He did not mean pig and lobster, which were not considered food by those in Israel anymore than road kill is considered food to us.) In Scriptures the interpretation for dreams is given. In Peter's case we are told more than once "This means...." There is zero mention of food, only of "unclean" gentiles being brought into the Kingdom.

Notice that in prison with Joseph, both Pharaoh's baker and butler had dreams about food. The interpretations for their dreams were given also. Once again, the interpretations had zero to do with food.

Also notice that in Acts 15 NON Jewish converts are told to refrain from blood, per Mosaic Law, and not to eat the meat of strangled animals. Strangled animals still had all the blood inside. Later you see in Acts 15 that - as was the custom at the time - the new converts were assumed to be going to the Synagogues on the Sabbaths (not Sundays) to learn the rest of the Laws of Moses.

We can't stone those caught in adultery because we don't have a Rabbinic system in this country to go by. Messiah did not stone the woman caught in adultery but He was not changing the Torah. The Torah says that both the man and woman should be brought forth, but only she was brought forth. The Torah says there must be two witnesses. When He wrote in the sand (maybe the sins of the witnesses, maybe even some of them with her?) the would be witnesses disappeared. The Torah was not being followed, and He showed her mercy, but told her, per the Torah, "Go and sin no more."

There is much in mainstream Christianity that is missing it. There are many traditions of men there, which our Savior hated and berated the Pharisees for

Again, you cite "culture." Cultures that go contrary to the Word lead to all kinds of problems for their populations. And that includes all cultures in one way or another. Again, I am not saying that we should disobey the laws of the land, unless we have to in order to be true to our Savior - as you agree. I was not directing anyone to do this or that. I was simply commenting. Commenting. I pointed out the problems of our penal system which thinks it has a better idea than what is taught in the Word. I said that it is not what "cultures" do that the Lord wants to agree with. He wants us to do what HE told us to do - where possible in the dispersal - and He "changes not."

Thank you for your comments LoricaLady. However, I think this behold the scope of this discussion. Maybe you can start a new thread and we could discuss there?

 

[Yahkov]

This passage refers to taking matters to the saints, not to "the pastor".

Unfortunately, I can't assume that an abused woman's pastor is a saint, or that he will give he will act like one towards her.

Too many times, particularly in complimentarian churches, the woman is told (sometimes even reprimanded or worse, disciplined!) to submit to her husband better and her marriage will improve! The pastor then takes the guy out to lunch and tells him he needs to get his wife under better control. When she comes back to her pastor because that didn't work, she is reprimanded for gossiping about her husband. When the marriage doesn't improve they start public church discipline against her for not submitting to her authorities.

Some churches do not take things to this extreme, but enact a smaller scale version of this that is just as damaging.

I've interacted with too many women meeting fates similar to this that I can no longer in good conscience send them to their church.

Also, many churches have a system of power driven politics within, where the old boys are covering up for each other. They will take the man's side, especially if he is in the leadership club, over the woman's because he is their friend and they want him to return the favor and take their side in other disputes.

Here is a letter from a trained counselor at a megachurch based in Chicago. It has over 13,000 members and its head pastor, James MacDonald had a radio program, Walk in the Word, with a large following:

thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HigbeeHBC.pdf

Similar politics are at play in many other churches. The letter linked in the OP described what happened to one woman due to these power politics when she sought help from her church.

I cannot assume that by referring a woman to 'her pastor', I'm referring her to "the saints", or to people who will act like it.

The passage is talking about the body of believers in Corinth, settling disputes among themselves and not going to the court. To their own shame, we see this in verse 5.

 

[Christ is Lord]

What exactly are you disagreeing with wholeheartedly? My stance is straight from Scripture. How exactly do you want to refute 1 Corinthians 6:1-8?

I refute it simply on the basis that I believe you're taking this out of context. Paul is talking about things that would be more comparable to civil lawsuits rather than criminal matters.

 

[Yahkov]

Folks as yourself this. If someone breaks into your house and you feel unsafe who is the first person you would call? Is it the pastor or the police?

If a person feels that they are unsafe in a marriage or a relationship it is in that person's right to contact the authorities. I do believe in discernment if the Holy Spirt leads you to go a different route (i.e going to your pastor or a person in leadership in your church or even going to a shelter) that is fine as well. But we should never make a person feel that they should NEVER go to the authorities because they feel unsafe.

I shoot the thief then call 911.

 

[Christ is Lord]

The passage is talking about the body of believers in Corinth, settling disputes among themselves and not going to the court. To their own shame, we see this in verse 5.

Yeah more than likely in regards to civil matters in this case it appears to be things of a financial nature.

Notice the wording of verse 7:

"To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?"

 

[Yahkov]

Really? If a wife is getting the crap beat out of her, you think the "church" should handle it? What, pray-tell, is the church going to do? Pray the violence out of the offender?

If the abuser is a believer, yes I believe the church is the first step.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I like laws that make it mandatory for pastors to disclose acts of physical abuse to the authorities especially in the case of minors. The advice that you should go to the church first I think can be beneficial in some cases but not all cases. I also have observed that pastors are reluctant to get the "world" involved because it brings "shame" to the church and they believe it weakens the gospel to unbelievers. You know what really weakens our message to the world and makes us look "cultish"? It's when we try to cover up domestic violence cases and when it comes out we get serious attention from the media like what is happening with the Catholic church.

 

[Yahkov]

Yeah more than likely in regards to civil matters in this case it appears to be things of a financial nature.

Notice the wording of verse 7:

"To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?"

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." - Matthew 18:15-17

Similar teachings are found here as well. I don't believe this is limited to just financial issues.

 

[LoricaLady]

Thank you for your comments LoricaLady. However, I think this behold the scope of this discussion. Maybe you can start a new thread and we could discuss there?

Yes, I guess I did go beyond the scope, as you say. I do not want to start any new threads because that would probably mean a lot of people commenting and I would have to be polite and respond. Don't have time for that right now.

Here is my suggestion. I hope you will understand. You can look at these vids, which can convey, far better than I ever could, how the contradictions between the Old and New Testament are only apparent. Both are in total harmony.

The vids are very scholarly, both in terms of history, Greek, and Scripture, but - to me anyway - no way boring. In fact they are often visually and auditorily attractive in very professional ways. The website for Psalm 119, TestEverything.net, can answer virtually any question you might have about Scriptures and they are all for free.

Oh I will try to clear up one misconception here. Many feel that those who try to obey the Torah are saying that we are saved by works. No way. That ministry will tell you they don't believe any such thing. We are saved by faith in the shed Blood of the Isaiah 53 Messiah. Period. Then, out of love for Him, we obey Him. "If you love Me, keep My Commandments" and His Commandments are exactly the same as the Father's because They are One and "YHWH" aka God "changes not."

May the videos bless you and anyone who takes the time to watch them.

With prayers for you and yours....

 

[Christ is Lord]

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." - Matthew 18:15-17

Similar teachings are found here as well. I don't believe this is limited to just financial issues.

Yes that is correct. However, I am not going to advise anyone that doesn't feel safe to "go and tell him his fault". And do what some people do and say "you're not following the biblical method" talk to your spouse and then come and talk to us if he doesn't listen.

 

[Yahkov]

I like laws that make it mandatory for pastors to disclose acts of physical abuse to the authorities especially in the case of minors. The advice that you should go to the church first I think can be beneficial in some cases but not all cases. I also have observed that pastors are reluctant to get the "world" involved because it brings "shame" to the church and they believe it weakens the gospel to unbelievers. You know what really weakens or message to the world and makes us look "cultish"? It's when we try to cover up domestic violence cases and when it comes out we get serious attention from the media like what is happening with the Catholic church.

I stand with you on this. Either way the court will find out about the abuse. As we can see in Romans, we subject ourselves to the governing authorities. Yes even pastors. I am just standing firm and I only stand firm that the church is the first step IF the abuser is a believer.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Yes, I guess I did go beyond the scope, as you say. I do not want to start any new threads because that would probably mean a lot of people commenting and I would have to be polite and respond. Don't have time for that right now.

Here is my suggestion. I hope you will understand. You can look at these vids, which can convey, far better than I ever could, how the contradictions between the Old and New Testament are only apparent. Both are in total harmony.

The vids are very scholarly, both in terms of history, Greek, and Scripture, but - to me anyway - no way boring. In fact they are often visually and auditorily attractive in very professional ways. The website for Psalm 119, TestEverything.net, can answer virtually any question you might have about Scriptures and they are all for free.

Oh I will try to clear up one misconception here. Many feel that those who try to obey the Torah are saying that we are saved by works. No way. That ministry will tell you they don't believe any such thing. We are saved by faith in the shed Blood of the Isaiah 53 Messiah. Period. Then, out of love for Him, we obey Him. "If you love Me, keep My Commandments" and His Commandments are exactly the same as the Father's because They are One and "YHWH" aka God "changes not."

May the videos bless you and anyone who takes the time to watch them.

With prayers for you and yours....

Thank you. I would take a look at them. And to your earlier post I do keep the Sabbath. Although, we aren't Jewish by any means I bake challah every Friday

 

[LoricaLady]

Thank you. I would take a look at them. And to your earlier post I do keep the Sabbath. Although, we aren't Jewish by any means I bake challah every Friday

Oh that's great that you keep the Sabbath. I'm not Jewish either but I'm sure challah is yummy.

 

[LoricaLady]

P.S. Lots of folks think Messianics are Jews. The great majority aren't, actually.

 

[LoricaLady]

Thanks for everyone who has been fighting the good fight against domestic abuse! It's been heartening.

 

[Yahkov]

Yes that is correct. However, I am not going to advise anyone that doesn't feel safe to "go and tell him his fault". And do what some people do and say "you're not following the biblical method" talk to your spouse and then come and talk to us if he doesn't listen.

This is where I'd draw the line of legalism. If a pastor tells the abused to follow proper Biblical method and 'tell him he is doing wrong first', that would be absolutely pathetic.

I can tell you from personal experience that I myself was abused as a child. My father was in and out of jail for doing so. I can't stand abuse. My cousin and his old "girlfriend" are believers. There was a time she called me and my brother to come over because she was being abused by him. We went there immediately, told him what he was doing was wrong, yet he still remained angry with a threatening demeanor so that is where we subdued him and were about to drag him to the police. Fortunately for them, the abuse stopped the very same day it started. Doesn't always end in such a way for others though.

In this situation it was one believer calling two other believers (myself and my brother) to help her. Church takes many forms.