Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church
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Yeal, the statistics aren't a bit good for abusive spouses ever improving, though they frequently get worse. I personally think that a Church could only help someone who was not a chronic and serious abuser at all who, as you indicate, takes the Word seriously - not just a phony Christian who twists Scriptures to justify demonic ends. And even then, it would probably help if the staff was very trained on the topic. In any case, if there is any physical sign of abuse, yes, it needs to be reported, and recorded, with the police.
If nothing else, such documentation might help in a later court case.
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ChicanaRose
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So you want pastors to act like a police and come to the house where violence is happening? Should they start teaching martial arts in seminaries?
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So were men and women separated into roles of good and evil according to an inaccurate reading of the bible. Should we shut down churches that continue to do that?
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Perhaps learn to read more carefully. We can often tend to rush in our reading and responses, though. You are reading things between the lines that are not there in my actual words. I never even hinted that the Church should fix unrighteous people. Guess what? I don't even go to Church! Nothing in the Bible tells us to do that. The word "Church", from the Bible, is just a Greek translation form the word "ecclesia" which simply means a gathering of believers at any time and any place.
To clarify my position, If someone is a sincere believer and can be helped by a Church in ANY ways, great. As for domestic abuse, I agree with those who say that the Church is not really going to be able to do much to help it stop - especially if the abuser is chronic and sick - as I mentioned with narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths. As I said in an earlier post, research shows those kinds of people are almost always the serious spouse abusers, and the research also shows that they don't improve, but generally get worse and worse.
Therefore I think that police reports and shelters for abused women are more likely to be helpful. Maybe the Church can additionally, offer some helpful counsel, comfort and resources to the women, though.
You say I mention extreme cases. Maybe the instance with a devil worshipper was extreme, but threats, murder and sexual assaults of women and children are way not extreme examples of domestic abuse, but pretty common.
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P.S. ToBeLoved Now that I have clarified my position, would you be so kind as to clarify yours as I have not seemed to be able to get a handle on it. Do you think a wife should continue to stay with a man who is threatening her, putting her at risk for murder, or sexually assaulting her children, all in the name of "Biblical" submission "unto the Lord"? Yes or no, please.
Who do you think would want the woman and children to be abused in those ways? The Lord or the devil? One or the other, please.
Who do you think would want the woman and children to be abused in those ways? The Lord or the devil? One or the other, please.
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lol the progression of the conversation brings it to, throw the sinner out, excommunicate
nvmnd beauty in the eyes of the beholder
nvmnd beauty in the eyes of the beholder
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Lots of Christians have this starry eyed view of helping "sinners." Yes, the worst of them can sometimes be saved. The truth is, that scenario is not common. In fact, it's not common for people to be saved in general! Messiah said that "few" would enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If there were 100 people in a room and you were asked to take a few out, how many would you get?lol the progression of the conversation brings it to, throw the sinner out, excommunicate
nvmnd beauty in the eyes of the beholder
Further He said that some people are demon seed, children of the devil, who will end up in the fiery pit. He also told us NOT to give what is holy to the dogs or cast our pearls before the swine. How do we know the dogs and swine? We don't. Some that seem righteous are not really so, underneath. Some that seem hopeless will be saved. The Holy Spirit is the One Who knows what is which.
Anyone deserves a chance. But to just assume that people always even would want to be saved is naive and anti Biblical. We can pray for anyone. But if the realities - like statistics - are staring us in the face, I think it is best to turn our attention and help where it is actually going to produce some fruit. If the Holy Spirit leads otherwise, great, go for it. Again, He knows who can be saved. But, again, most, sadly, will not be whether they are Church goers or atheistic psychopaths.
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There should be a good balance of safety for those also who are unloved by unlovely people. Respect for person’s best isn’t ever forthcoming in God’s mode of operation. It shouldn’t be given to the worst. :replaces rose coloured glasses: Have a great day ya'all
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We are told to treat all people with respect. We are told to love our enemies. We aren't told to trust everyone though.
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The issue is safety in churches and it isn’t forthcoming from a particular teaching.
And it correlates exactly with safety in homes.
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Safety in Churches no way always correlates to safety in homes. For just one of countless reasons, there are all kinds of Churches, with all kinds of frequently completely contradictory beliefs. The topic of domestic abuse is certainly something they commonly disagree on.
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Yahkov
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The reason why I brought up the situation in 1 Corinthians 5 was not to bring up a direct related situation. We are acting in this thread the way the church in Corinth was acting. And Paul was literally correcting this all throughout 1 Corinthians.
It is clear that people believe the church isn't doing what it should be doing in handling situations like abuse. That is an obvious problem. So the advice given is to not go to the church anymore for these situations? That's not how you fix a problem. Do we encourage every church everywhere to now tell people in abusive relationships, "sorry there is nothing I can do for you, go to the police. It's the new status quo." We have now become just like the church in Corinth.
We aren't even mourning over the fact that some churches do nothing about it. We just want to make jokes now about pastors teaching martial arts? My goodness 1 Corinthians couldn't be any more louder. The focus is not, the church can't fix this so I am going to fight for this change within the church. Instead it is, the church can't fix this so I am going to court. Literally the direct opposite way to fix this problem from what is given to us in Scripture (1 Corinthians 6).
If we decide to go to the court before the church, it is to our shame. Not because we make the better decision.
As I have said before in this thread...if the spouse abusing his wife is a believer, you go to the church. If the spouse abusing his wife is not a believer, you go to the court. If 1 Corinthians is not enough to convince you of this, then there's nothing I can say to change your mind. Our answer is already in the Bible. A thread about convincing others to do the direct opposite is not the answer I will align myself to.
It is clear that people believe the church isn't doing what it should be doing in handling situations like abuse. That is an obvious problem. So the advice given is to not go to the church anymore for these situations? That's not how you fix a problem. Do we encourage every church everywhere to now tell people in abusive relationships, "sorry there is nothing I can do for you, go to the police. It's the new status quo." We have now become just like the church in Corinth.
We aren't even mourning over the fact that some churches do nothing about it. We just want to make jokes now about pastors teaching martial arts? My goodness 1 Corinthians couldn't be any more louder. The focus is not, the church can't fix this so I am going to fight for this change within the church. Instead it is, the church can't fix this so I am going to court. Literally the direct opposite way to fix this problem from what is given to us in Scripture (1 Corinthians 6).
If we decide to go to the court before the church, it is to our shame. Not because we make the better decision.
As I have said before in this thread...if the spouse abusing his wife is a believer, you go to the church. If the spouse abusing his wife is not a believer, you go to the court. If 1 Corinthians is not enough to convince you of this, then there's nothing I can say to change your mind. Our answer is already in the Bible. A thread about convincing others to do the direct opposite is not the answer I will align myself to.
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Allow me to recap from past posts. There are a great many psychotherapists who are saying that domestic abusers are suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, or sometimes sociopathy and psychopathy. 99.99% of them, at least, say that they never see any improvements with such people and that, on the contrary, such people get worse with time as a rule.
The research also indicates that such individuals have different brain scans from the norm, particularly with decreased cortical development in the empathy areas of the brain. They may seem normal on the outside, which is how they suck their victims in often, but they are not normal on the inside. They are very sick.
Now the psychotherapists say they can't help them. Have you seen any serious domestic abusers truly turning around and becoming righteous spouses as the result of Church intervention? How many? What are the statistics to support that the Church turns such people around? I suspect there are none.
Now, I am NOT saying the Church could never be any help On the contrary I think they are missing the boat by not trying in the ways that Messiah directed. He didn't say "Counsel them..." and so on. He said "Cast out evil spirits, heal the sick, raise the dead" and so on. The vast majority of Churches ain't doin' any such things, or even talking about any such things.
Someone with decreased cortex and/or demonic oppression needs to be helped in the ways MESSIAH told us to help, not in the secular "Tell me your troubles while I offer my advice" ways.
People like that, and suffering people all over, need ministers of spiritual deliverance. Since they are not getting any of that the majority of the time, that's why domestic abuse victims need to go to the police and the court!
May the Church wake up and go about treating the sick and the sinners in the ways that our Savior told us to do it.
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Yahkov
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Shake your head all you want. It is exactly like advice is being given that doesn't reflect Scripture on a Christian forum. Part of the OP I can agree with under very specific circumstances. But this "give up on the church, church can't help you" idea, not a fan of.
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Can you offer any testimonies or statistics to show that even one serious domestic abuser, say someone sexually assaulting his kids and threatening to murder his wife, plus using her for a punching bag, has been turned around by Church intervention? I see you have faith that they could be helped by the Church, but do you have facts to support that faith?
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Yahkov
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It's not that I trust the church to turn someone like this around, but I trust God can do such a feat. Of whom, the church should stand as ambassadors for. And who is it that has done all of this? I would find it very hard to believe that a believer would even do all of that in the first place. Or is this an extremely rare and hypothetical case?
If you want to ask me how many people like this God has changed, well I am sure you know there are numerous.
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