The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

Ecclesiastian said:

Can someone tell me why the gift of tongues is so focused upon in charismatic groups, when Paul goes into detail explaining that God gives to different people different gifts, and he even asks rhetorically "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". When I quoted this to a Pentecostal friend of mine he simply said he knew about the verse and proceeded to quote Acts 2 to me again.

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This comes from the AOG doctrine that tongues is the primary evidence of the baptism with the Spirit. This doctrine states that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not baptised with the Spirit. They take their doctrine from the examples in Acts where those on whom the Holy Spirit fell, spoke in tongues.

But Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14 implies that not all speak in tongues, because he says that he would that they all spoke in tongues, so he saw that not all the Corinthian believers spoke in tongues. Paul, in Galatians says that a converted believer has the Holy Spirit, implying that the person who does not have the Holy Spirit is not converted. But some Pentecostal groups hold to a heretical doctrine that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not saved. This is actually a blasphemy of the blood of the Jesus, implying that the blood of Jesus was not enough to save a sinner.

There is the personal ability to pray in tongues and this is for the private prayer room where God is the sole listener. Most who have the gift of tongues use it for this purpose and so they are never heard praying in tongues during a public meeting (that is, if they are following Paul's teaching as they should). Therefore, the gift of tongues that is to be spoken out publicly that requires an interpretation is for a select few, as the Holy Spirit wills for them.

There is another heresy that teaches that those who speak in tongues are more spiritual and closer to God than those who don't. This has given rise to many Pentecostals having a "holier than thou" attitude toward those groups and believers who choose not to seek God for the gift or the personal ability to pray in tongues.

For, me, tongues is just another tool in the Holy Spirit's toolbox. It has a definite purpose both for private and public use, and when it is used correctly as Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14, then it is a blessing to the individual believer and to the corporate group.

But the devil, being what he is, uses good gifts like tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge and healing to the extreme and presents them in an exaggerated and counterfeit fashion in order to discredit them. It is the difference between using a rifle for target shooting and hunting as against using it to go into a mall and killing as many people as possible. It is not the rifle that is the problem - it is the way it is used. The motor car is a great resource for getting from A to B, and most use it for its intended purpose. But when a terrorist uses a motor car to drive at speed into a crowd of people in order to kill and maim them, then it is not the motor car that is is problem, it is the person's use of it.

It is the same with tongues, and the other gifts of the Spirit. These gifts are good and beneficial when used the right way, but can be harmful when misused. It is sad that these gifts are seriously being misused in so many Charismatic groups and conferences, so it is quite understandable that many good and godly people don't want to have anything to do with them.

BCsenior said:

Almost everyone who calls himself a Christian DISAGREES!

YOU are saying that one must speak in tongues:
-- to be saved
-- to have received the Holy Spirit INSIDE
-- to be a BAC

Somehow, you have been taught incorrectly (and it wasn't by God).

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What business do you have chopping up bits and pieces of a long post and reconnecting them elsewhere to make it say something entirely false? I said all of Mark 16:16-18 is for ALL believers. The manifestation of tongues in Mark is not the same as the tongues in 1 Corinthians. I did not say that all of 1 Corinthians 12 is given to all. Shame on you.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

BCsenior said:

YOU said that one must speak in tongues:
-- to be saved
-- to have received the Holy Spirit INSIDE
-- to be a BAC

... and I'm NOT lying ... for I can read and understand English.

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I did not say one MUST SPEAK in tongues. I said ALL BELIEVERS are given the ability and authority to do so.

You said: ... and I'm NOT lying ... for I can read and understand English.

You cut a section from one topic and attached it to another topic to say a falsehood. Shame on you!

BCsenior said:

I love you in the Lord, and I wish for you to understand the truth.
Please listen to someone who is speaking the truth in these last days
... and ditto for anyone else who is OPEN to the Truth ...

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What? No apology? You know what you did, and now you throw in a video that is completely off topic.

CharismaticLady said:

The Dead Sea Scrolls only contain Old Testament fragments, except for the Book of Esther.

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Oh yeah. I will correct that.

BCsenior said:

There are two basic fundamental Christian experiences: the most important is obviously salvation, and then next is the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Nothing can be done to earn either one!
The 1st experience is when a person is baptized into the church, resulting in being “born again”
(it occurs when the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE). The 2nd experience is when a born-again person receives “the baptism with the Holy Spirit” (and this only occurs when the Holy Spirit
comes UPON a person) and the person is FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

The problem with accepting the reality of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms is that churches today believe
so differently than the NT churches! Satan has been successful in deceiving the church about several things, and this includes the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11). Prophecy, tongues and the other gifts will vanish away when that which is perfect (Jesus) has come. Then the gifts will no longer be needed, but they are needed now.

FIRST … It all began here … Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you.”
Then He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22, NLT)
“… it was then that they were born again of the Spirit. This is when they received true and full faith … spiritual life.” (The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary to Nepal)

It is the Holy Spirit who baptizes new believers into the church
“For by one (Holy) Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
(Paul, 1 Corinthians 12:13, NASB)

New believers, all born-again Christians, receive the Holy Spirit INSIDE
(John 14:16-23, John 15:4-5, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16,
Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16).

“Anyone who is thirsty may come to Me! Anyone who believes in Me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’ ” When He said “living water”, he was speaking of the (Holy) Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in Him.” (Jesus, John 7:37-39, NLT)

Meanwhile, John the Baptist was prophesying …
It is Jesus Himself who will be baptizing believers with the Holy Spirit
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).

“He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ ”
(John 1:33).
As usual, John is more in-depth about spiritual things!
Jesus will “baptize with the Holy Spirit” (some people, not all)
… when He sends the Holy Spirit “upon” whomever He chooses!

SECOND … Jesus “promised” His disciples that they would receive “the gift”
of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which would result in spiritual power

● “Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Jesus, Luke 24:49)

● “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift He promised, as I told you before [Luke 24:49]. John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Jesus, Acts 1:4, NLT)

● “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere …” (Jesus, Acts 1:8, NLT)

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was the gift Jesus had promised. This occurs when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and he/she is filled with the Holy Spirit, which results in spiritual power.
This “power” that Jesus gives is usually an anointing for some type of ministry.

THIRD … Jesus’ 11 disciples surely witnessed to other people and
although it is not mentioned, some surely became born-again Christians

“During this time, when about 120 believers (footnote: brothers) were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them. “Brothers …” (Acts 1:15, NLT)

“While Jesus’ disciples were waiting for the gift of the Holy Spirit, they all joined together constantly in prayer. It is mainly through praye that we obtain the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13) …
In addition to Jesus’ main disciples, there were in Jerusalem at that time about 120 other believers. ... Many Christians say that sometime after having put faith in Christ and having received the Holy Spirit the first time, they then have experienced a new filling of the Spirit. These Christians call this new experience of the Spirit a “second blessing” or “the baptism with the Spirit”. They are filled with the Spirit in a new and deeper way, and they receive a new power and zeal” (The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary to Nepal)

FOURTH … Days later, Jesus’ 12 disciples (and others) experienced the Day of Pentecost

“On the day of Pentecost all the (120) believers were meeting together in one place. Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. Then what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking with other tongues, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.”
(Acts 2:1-4, NLT)

Peter tried to explain all of this to other Jews who were present
“And the Father, as He had promised, gave Him (Jesus) the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today … Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be (water) baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles – all who have been called by the Lord our God.” (Acts 2:33-39, NLT)

To repeat with emphasis re: the baptism with the Holy Spirit …
“This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles –-
all who have been called by the Lord our God.” (Acts 2:39, NLT)

“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them (the high priest and others) … Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marvelled ... And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it ... For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all …” (Acts 4:8-16)

Before Pentecost, most probably all of the 120 had been water baptized. Please notice that
the promise and the gift refer to what the 120 believers received on the Day of Pentecost,
which was the baptism with the Holy Spirit … as the Spirit came UPON them and they were
FILLED with the Holy Spirit to over-flowing! Any of the 120 who had NOT yet been born-again,
must have received both Spirit baptisms simultaneously! Yes, some people today all over the world receive both at the same time.

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Very interesting take on the subject and would agree on almost all.

BCsenior said:

What don't you agree with? ... we can discuss it.

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It's ok, God will give me some confirmation, but I must say looks pretty sound and concrete the way you put it.

BCsenior said:

I do not know what I did.
I do know that I have read several of your posts lately that are totally out to lunch.
I've decided that you are unteachable, so I'm not going to waste any more time.

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I am very teachable, but I won't be bullied into believing denominational unscriptural mistakes.

I was showing the difference between the gifts for the individual of Mark 16 and those of 1 Cor. 12 for the profit of all. I never said you must speak in tongues to be saved. Operating a gift that you have is not necessary to prove you have it, so if someone never speaks in tongues out of unbelief doesn't negate Mark 16. "The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." If someone has the Holy Spirit inside them they are born again and have all the authorities of Mark 16 whether they want them or out of ignorance do not.

1 Corinthians 12 is an entirely different ball game. These are for ministry, and are given to those already born again, who already have the authorities of Mark 16.

BCsenior said:

Shall I look up the post where you said that you know all spiritual things? (I'm paraphrasing)
I'm not trying to teach you anything in this post ... I'm just warning the other members.

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Warning the other members against me? Fine. We all need to work out our own salvation.

BCsenior said:

Almost everyone who calls himself a Christian DISAGREES!

YOU are saying that one must speak in tongues:
-- to be saved
-- to have received the Holy Spirit INSIDE
-- to be a BAC

Somehow, you have been taught incorrectly (and it wasn't by God).

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I don't think she is saying that at all! I have had many good conversations with her and she has never said that one has to speak in tongues to be saved, nor has she said that a person necessarily has to speak in tongues to be baptised with the Spirit.

What she is saying is that tongues is the most common and accessible gift that one can received, and that all believers have the ability to speak in tongues, but that doesn't mean that all believers are required to receive it.